NW188 Pilot's Revoked

[Ray_Air]

FAA revokes wayward Northwest pilots' licenses | StarTribune.com

They were probably both ATP's. The FAA revoked their licenses and that means they have a 10:1 chance of losing their jobs. I think they have 10 days to appeal? I would not want to be in their shoes. Looks like their flying days are done.

[elk2370bruce]

From the information I've read, they should lose their tickets. Besides being a "job", passengers (including me) count on the professionalism and public trust from those who take the stick and to keep us safe.

[kb2vxa]

What amazes me is how in recent times many such incidents are leaked to the press. In my 7 years of employment at Newark Liberty International I witnessed and heard on my scanner (in the airport) more life threatening incidents in the air and on the ground than I can count and not one, not a single one ever got in the news. Remember the terrorist bombs and Lockerbee? 9-11 was NOT America's wake up call, the authorities were on alert long before only quietly until the dam broke. I lost count of how many live bombs were found aboard planes and defused, hardly a day went by there for a while they didn't find one primed and ready to go and the public was none the wiser.

That raises the question of who and why is out to destroy confidence in air travel by leaking internal affairs to the public. Incidents occur each and every day, some of them major, the vast majority are handled quietly but as we all know even when something minor leaks out it is sensationalized by the press and turns into a near disaster in the eyes of the public.

Here we have a case of the FAA jumping the gun in an attempt to head off their trial by press (covering their backside) by convicting two men without so much as a hearing, a desperation move if I ever saw one. One may expect them to be washed out in due course but now they're being hung out to dry before due process has even begun. So just who are supplying the clothes pins? Look in the mirror and note the crowd standing behind you.

LOOK! Up in the sky! Is it a bird? Is it Superman? It's a plane...

[K4IHS]

I guess "the dog ate my flight plan" excuse didn't work...

[rdale]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

we all know even when something minor leaks out

Minor? They ignored calls from ATC and their ground control for OVER an hour and a half!!! How can that be considered minor?

Here we have a case of the FAA jumping the gun

They admitted they were wrong. They weren't paying attention to anything outside of the cockpit - and that's their sole purpose for having a license. What would you expect the FAA to do? Say "it's okay, and next time if you forget to drop the gear because you're playing NBA Live on your iPhones we'll let that slide too"?

Look in the mirror and note the crowd standing behind you.

Huh?

[poltergeisty]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

What amazes me is how in recent times many such incidents are leaked to the press. In my 7 years of employment at Newark Liberty International I witnessed and heard on my scanner (in the airport) more life threatening incidents in the air and on the ground than I can count and not one, not a single one ever got in the news. Remember the terrorist bombs and Lockerbee? 9-11 was NOT America's wake up call, the authorities were on alert long before only quietly until the dam broke. I lost count of how many live bombs were found aboard planes and defused, hardly a day went by there for a while they didn't find one primed and ready to go and the public was none the wiser.

That raises the question of who and why is out to destroy confidence in air travel by leaking internal affairs to the public. Incidents occur each and every day, some of them major, the vast majority are handled quietly but as we all know even when something minor leaks out it is sensationalized by the press and turns into a near disaster in the eyes of the public.

Here we have a case of the FAA jumping the gun in an attempt to head off their trial by press (covering their backside) by convicting two men without so much as a hearing, a desperation move if I ever saw one. One may expect them to be washed out in due course but now they're being hung out to dry before due process has even begun. So just who are supplying the clothes pins? Look in the mirror and note the crowd standing behind you.

LOOK! Up in the sky! Is it a bird? Is it Superman? It's a plane...

I'll have to agree with this overall assessment. It is my belief that the point in time where sensationalism all started is when that notorious white Bronco was barreling down the freeway in Southern California. It truly defined a changing media. Now there was another point in time that marked a change in reporting to say the least. This was indeed September, 11 2001. So we read that F-16s were on alert due to the loss of communications. That is why this very event got so much attention by the media. In a post 9/11 world I wouldn't expect the media not to report on it.

Now not all stories are in fact reported. I don't recall ever hearing on the news about a plane that landed on the taxiway in Atlanta. Needless to say, many overseas commercial aviation mishaps go largely unreported as well.

Hold on and fasten your seat belts as you become part of the sensationalism ride that with time you soon discover that it is you who may play the part in tomorrows headlines. What lies ahead is a sign post that reads, "YouTube".

[rmiller818]

Originally Posted by poltergeisty

Now not all stories are in fact reported. I don't recall ever hearing on the news about a plane that landed on the taxiway in Atlanta. Needless to say, many overseas commercial aviation mishaps go largely unreported as well.

Don't know what news you were watching but it was all over the news around here.

But you still make a point, plenty of stuff that happens goes unreported.

[scottaschultz]

Obviously the FAA is one of the poorest run federal agencies. This editorial from the Wall Street Journal from April 2008 pretty well sums it up:

"The FAA was criticized in March for lax oversight when a congressional panel found that an FAA supervisor allowed 46 Southwest Airlines planes to fly without inspections in 2007. At a congressional hearing, inspectors testified that they repeatedly ran into roadblocks when trying to report oversight lapses. The agency fined Southwest $10.2 million for failing to conduct proper safety checks.

Reacting to the criticism, the agency then overreacted, forcing the cancellation of more than 3,000 flights by American and other airlines over the next four days because wiring in 300 of American's jets wasn't fastened according to a 2006 directive."
Editorial: The FAA crackdown - JSOnline

It would seem that the FAA is either corrupt or the airlines just don't take them seriously because there are rarely penalties for violating their rules or probably a combination of a little bit of both. In the Southwest case, they levied the fine only after a Congressional hearing. And who does the FAA primarily serve? The airline industry. These are their buddies; their pals. So it makes sense that they may be reluctant to chastise one of their own. I am sure only the very worst infractions get publicized and unfortunately, they are usually the ones that involved deaths because it is "sensational". If we knew everything that went on, no one would fly!

[DaveNF2G]

Failing to learn from history again, we are. (My Yoda impression.)

It has been shown time and again that Federal oversight agencies become "captured" by the entities they are supposed to regulate. Look at the FCC, SEC, and FDA for additional recent examples.

[poltergeisty]

Originally Posted by rmiller818

Don't know what news you were watching but it was all over the news around here.

But you still make a point, plenty of stuff that happens goes unreported.

You live in Georgia.

[immelmen]

So much for the ASAP program...what a joke, the FAA should be ashamed.

[GoNavy]

Losing their job I think is a bit extreme, and the only reason is the media. Should they be suspended, yea, receive some extra training, yea. Now the reason I take this stand, is because being a truck driver for many years, I can relate to being over worked and over tired, you make mistakes. I don't buy the computer thing, I think they were asleep plain and simple. I have been driving before and gone 100 miles past my exit and not realized it, sure glad I didn't get fired just for that...there is not a truck driver out there that hasn't done that...as long as they are awake when they land. Doctors lose patients all the time, some from neglect or bad doctoring, they just get sued and keep on working..Whats wrong with our country where a pilot makes a mistake where no one dies and ends his career and a doctor kills some one and doesn't even lose time off from work. I would rather see them get fired and just sue the pilot's.

[rdale]

Originally Posted by GoNavy

I don't buy the computer thing, I think they were asleep plain and simple.

Well that means they are straight-out liars, which might be okay in politics - but not in the airline profession. So fire them for that.

[scottaschultz]

Originally Posted by GoNavy

Doctors lose patients all the time, some from neglect or bad doctoring, they just get sued and keep on working..Whats wrong with our country where a pilot makes a mistake where no one dies and ends his career and a doctor kills some one and doesn't even lose time off from work. I would rather see them get fired and just sue the pilot's.

First of all, if a doctor is found to be negligent, they most certainly can lose their license to practice medicine. They can't just keep getting sued with no consequences. You're a truck driver. What happens if you make too many insurance claims? The first thing that is going to happen is that your insurance carrier will start jacking up your rates and sooner or later they will drop your coverage altogether and there goes your career. The same thing happens with malpractice insurance.

As far as just firing these two pilots and letting the passengers and crew sue them, don't you think that would be a career ending move for the pilots? I think the FAA was just hastening the inevitable. No one would hire these guys again anyway so why not just make it official? And as far as there being no fatalities on this particular flight, the age old question is how many people have to die before they make new rules or even just start enforcing the rules that already exist? Would you ever fly with either of these two guys in the cockpit?

[GoNavy]

Originally Posted by scottaschultz

Would you ever fly with either of these two guys in the cockpit?

Ah and there is the rub, how would you ever know, I have never had a choice of who the pilot is or even known what gender they are, wouldn't know what they looked like if they passed me in the terminal. And has you said, I don't loss my career for one mishap or insurance claim, it takes several. Doctors are the same, in fact I can think of no career you lose for having had one incident, it usually takes several, odd that we haven't heard any thing from the pilots union yet, bet this is a long way from being over.

[scottaschultz]

Originally Posted by GoNavy

...in fact I can think of no career you lose for having had one incident

Suicide bomber???

Originally Posted by GoNavy

...odd that we haven't heard any thing from the pilots union yet, bet this is a long way from being over.

Oh I think it is over for these two guys. Maybe they should allow them to be crop dusters or something like that, but I am pretty sure their days of carrying passengers is over... and rightly so!

[scottaschultz]

Originally Posted by scottaschultz

Would you ever fly with either of these two guys in the cockpit?

Originally Posted by GoNavy

Ah and there is the rub, how would you ever know...

Actually that is the whole point. Since you don't know who is sitting in the cockpit, it is (theoretically) the job of the FAA to make sure that you safely arrive at your destination and if they are not convinced that a particular pilot or pilots (or aircraft) are not capable of doing so, they have to (hopefully) take corrective action. In practice, however, we all know that is not always the case.

From faa.gov:
Our Mission
Our continuing mission is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world.

Our Vision
We continue to improve the safety and efficiency of flight. We are responsive to our customers and are accountable to the taxpayer and the flying public.

Our Values
Safety is our passion. We are the world leaders in aerospace safety.
Quality is our trademark. We serve our country, our stakeholders, our customers, and each other.
Integrity is our character. We do the right thing, even when no one is looking.
People are our strength. We treat people as we want to be treated.

If I could only believe this!

[GoNavy]

lol...suicide bomber is a religious believe not a career, and that is a whole different conversation

Lets be clear, I am not saying that these guys should not be punished, I am not even saying they shouldn't be fired. My complaint is what you just said, why is the FAA getting involved. Northwest should do the firing, their careers shouldn't end overone incident where no one got hurt. These guys can't fly any thing now, the years they spent building a career is over because of one mistake, where no one was hurt, (remember we can't go by what might happen) which is extreme and a way over reaction to flying a hundred miles past your destination, which took maybe ten minutes at the speed a plane flies.

The equivalent is in my field DOT is like the FAA. Lets say you have a tour bus driver who misses his exit, and it makes the news, all the passengers are pissed off etc...should the DOT now get involved and take this guys CDL license, effectively preventing him from driving anywhere.

This is political pure and simple, the FAA should comment, but otherwise stay out of it, it was Northwest job to deal with this, including any law suits.

[scottaschultz]

Originally Posted by GoNavy

...why is the FAA getting involved.

Because the FAA issues pilot's licenses, not Northwest or any airline for that matter. If they believe that a pilot is no longer capable of doing their job, it is absolutely their job to revoke those privileges.

Originally Posted by GoNavy

...their careers shouldn't end overone incident where no one got hurt. These guys can't fly any thing now, the years they spent building a career is over because of one mistake, where no one was hurt, (remember we can't go by what might happen) which is extreme and a way over reaction to flying a hundred miles past your destination...

Again, does someone have to get hurt or die before it is determined that a pilot is no longer capable of doing their job? Ideally, this determination should be made before anyone gets hurt or dies.

Originally Posted by GoNavy

...which took maybe ten minutes at the speed a plane flies.

If they had arrived 10 minutes late, no one would care, but they were out of contact with Air Traffic Control for almost an hour and a half! I wish I could remember the last time I flew somewhere and landed within 10 minutes of the scheduled arrival time!

Originally Posted by GoNavy

The equivalent is in my field DOT is like the FAA. Lets say you have a tour bus driver who misses his exit, and it makes the news, all the passengers are pissed off etc...should the DOT now get involved and take this guys CDL license, effectively preventing him from driving anywhere.

For missing an exit, no. That is not a violation of any law (that I know of). But as someone who holds a state-issued driver's license, every time you do violate the law, points are added to your license commensurate with the severity of the infraction. If you get enough of these points, the state will revoke your driving privileges. In effect, this is what the FAA did. If Northwest wants to keep these guys as gate agents or baggage handlers, they are free to do so. All the FAA did was say that these guys are no longer fit to fly. They did not tell Northwest what to do with them in terms of their employment (but we are all pretty sure what will happen in that regard)

Originally Posted by GoNavy

This is political pure and simple, the FAA should comment, but otherwise stay out of it, it was Northwest job to deal with this, including any law suits.

This is not political. The FAA is, however, doing some major tap dancing. They are supposed to notify the military 10 minutes after losing contact with an aircraft and they waited over an hour! Its probably not just two Northwest pilots who will be losing their job over this one.

[GoNavy]

But that is my point, the pilots didn't violate any law either, they missed their exit, just like the bus driver. The only difference between the bus driver scenario and this flight is one was in the air. Both carry passengers both are over seen by federal agencies both require a special license to operate. More people die by bus accidents each year then plane crashes, you would think the DOT would be much harder on incidents then the FAA. But they would never do what the FAA just did. They violated some policies for sure. The passengers were not in any danger, unless of course they run out fuel, no one has mentioned that yet, these days they usually only put enough fuel on board to get to where they are going, so if the bus runs out of gas folks are just stranded, plane run out of gas.....

You bring up a good point, not notifying anybody like Home land security is probably a much bigger deal then the pilots mistake. lol...a good offensive is better then a good defense, the FAA is in scramble mode for sure, the pilots are only losing their ticket for a year, I just don't think the punishment fits the crime, and had this not been a media event, they most probably would have been suspended for a week or so, the FAA would not even care, or comment.