Military Puts Hold on new radio system

[n4voxgill]

According to National Defense Magazine, the army has put a halt to new JTRS radios. this joint tactical radio program plans to spend 5 Billion dollars on 750,000 radios to replace all radios used by the military, except HF. The software system does not meet the encryption requirement for radios that was set by NSA(National SEcurity Agency). The new radio system would have been used by Army, Navy and Air Force for short and long range communications.

It will pobably end most monitoring of military including milair. Public safety agencies have had representatives at all of the meeting, as there is interest in making it available for police and fire agencies. Story at

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2005/mar/uf-army_halts.htm

 

[buttsrob]

Interesting article.

If it were up to me...and it certainly isn't by any means....we'd move more towards more COTS (commercial off-the-shelf) systems. Heck, I'd go TOTALLY to it.

Bottom line: The commercial radio and cell-phone manfacturers do it better, cheaper and faster. The military procurement process simply cannot keep up with the wave of technological advance.

In Iraq right now I have:

- SINCGARS - A FHSS system that isn't too bad...but is HUGE and consumes WAY too much power

- MBITR - A hand-held multi-band radio that does EVERYTHING on "DC to daylight" Again, a great radio but WAY too big and a power hog.

- An Iridium Phone - commercial, Motorola - AWESOME!

- My workhorses, ICOM IC-F43G and (my own) IC-T90A
These "COTS" radios are used for 90% of the administrative,routine traffic.


I have more commo than I can use...but the commercial stuff is just fine.

Around here we're also using a trunked repeater system ...which works great in this type of conflict...where we're relatively static.

Security....well the "security Nazis" would shoot me for this but...it's not needed for 80% of what we say on TACTICAL radios...

"move 6 feet to the right Raider 22..." "That's good."

"Hey, I need some more fuel in this generator.."

For the longer-haul radios crypto is ESSENTIAL...especially when you're passing operational traffic, situation reports and intelligence.

Here's another wrench for the gears....most of the "longer haul" systems are almost totally silent. MOST of our traffic is now passed digitally. We there are a few specific users...but not many.


Finally, if I were king for a day (or Commanding General) I'd field this..

An NSA-approved, encyrypted WIFI-Based system. This sytem could pass data and Voice (VoIP). Each vehicle would have a router with some power (5-10 Watts?) and high-gain antennas. Individual soldiers would have WIFI cell-phone-like devices and (maybe) PDAs and laptops.

The whole thing could be configured as a roaming ad-hoc network with infrastructure nodes in key places.

Just like the cell-phones EVERYBODY has in the civilian world...each soldier and each vehicle and each command post element would have a phone number. There would be special "net call" numbers for emergencies and on an area basis.


Maybe I can make $millions when I retire. Any takers?


73!

MAJ Bob Butts
S3, 1-3 BTB (MI and Signal)
Tikrit, Iraq

 

[poltergeisty]

This sounds like an excellent idea, but one thing is needed, spread spectrum. I would spread spectrum the crap out of all military coms. and/or go straight sat. Like the technology in your Iridium phone. Harder to pick it up. You would think the defense department would favor one of those routes.


Everything could use this and those that are in areas without sky overhead or not receiving a good sat signal, the radio could be transmitted to a mobile repeater via current helicopters in the area, vehicles or back to base camp. The use of a phone number of some type sounds good too. I think it would Keep everything in order and makes it easier for communication.

There is so much technology out there it seems anything is possible now days if you put your mind to it.


I have to ask. Are you really allowed to talk about all the technology you have there? Knowing though that I think a lot of these desert thugs might not have any real eavesdropping equipment but rather a whole lot of weapons.

Hey, take care over there. May there be no question about it, you and every one over there is an absolute hero and a true patriot. Hope to hear allot from you on this site. Thumbs up.

 

[N_Jay]

JTRS was supposed to bring all teh commom forms of communicatins together in one unit.

NOT create yet another incompatable form! :wink:

It was based on SDR. :roll:

 

[poltergeisty]

The idea is not complicated given what we do now with sats. It seems to me a very good vision for military communications. Sense their idea is currently paused at this time do to -NSA- complications. I would render a new design from scratch. The use of sats and spread spectrum that is being digitally encrypted to allow voice and data surely would satisfy those mathematical nerds. :lol: I don't know just my thoughts as any one elses. :wink:


EDIT: The -JTRS- sounds like a big cluster-f to me :lol: Get it, cluster cluster 1, 2 and 3 any ways they may scrap it. But they might not knowing they probably spent a lot of money on it already and will push it out the door kicking and screaming all the way.

 

[N_Jay]

The idea is not complicated given what we do now with sats. It seems to me a very good vision for military communications. Sense there idea is currently paused at this time do to -NSA- complications. I would render a new design from scratch. The use of sats and spread spectrum that is being digitally encrypted to allow voice and data surely would satisfy those mathematical nerds. :lol: I don't know just my thoughts as any one elses. :wink:


EDIT: The -JTRS- sounds like a big cluster-f to me any ways they may scrap it. But they might not knowing they probably spent a lot of money on it all ready and will push it out the door kicking and screaming all the way.

Why don't you do a little reading on what JTRS is and what it is supposed to do.

Yes, it is a Cluster F-K, but that is more due to overselling the dream of SDR than anything else.

 

[poltergeisty]

Well I have looked at some information from the -JTRS- home page and a pdf. Nothing talks about spread spectrum or sat coms. Besides interoperability which seems to be the big idea behind it all. A software defined radio is nice but wouldn't that be lightning in a bottle to the enemy if they got there rat claws on one. Ya theres encryption and blah, blah, blah but the one thing that seems no one has ever paid attention to and that is. Never underestimate your enemy. -SDR- hmmmm. I would only use this kind of technology for command positions so they can talk to allies and other personal or branchs and conduct in this fashion. It's no wonder the -NSA- is not approving this. Keep in mind that they are the largest employer of mathematicians in the world. My point, there not dumb. Knowing that they halted it because of encryption issues however but makes me wonder if they have another agenda.


What really bust my buttons on -JTRS- is how they talk about using it for homeland security, federal, local and state police. Now wait a dam minute here, whats up with APCO and the multi million dollar systems being stuck in all over the place are these still not good enough? If it is not, then all the states should take there homeland security money and give it to the Department Of Defense. Seems they have a true answer to everybody interoperability problems. LOL, of course it seems I do to. My idea expressed above is to uniform it all thus no -SDR-. this is the reason for -SDR- right? Of course new and expensive is good- and -current and simple is bad. Not saying -SDR- is not good just not my idea of solving interoperability issues. I think unification through satellite and digital technology will solve that.

Now I know there needs to be a better radio system out there now so why experiment with something new. I believe communication in a military environment is a very critical and the up most important use of -RF- that we know it to be, thats why I say sat. and spread spectrum. Satellites are a more focused beam that can't be monitored very well, add spread spectrum with digital encryption and I think it's flawless. Not only that but we have a lot of birds up there right now. Not sure what space is used currently by Department Of Defense sats. however.

Ok maybe all radios are -SDR- but sat. used primarily and land based when a sun spot has accrued or other form of interference which might render a satellite communication useless. (Laughing) Maybe I should just draw up plans and present my idea to the Department Of Defense. -DOD- "Are you a genius or a radio techy" Me- "No but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night." :lol:

There you got four paragraphs to look at and wonder what the hell I'm saying, because frankly I don't think no one understands me.


:lol:

 

[buttsrob]

I have to ask. Are you really allowed to talk about all the technology you have there? Knowing though that I think a lot of these desert thugs might not have any real eavesdropping equipment but rather a whole lot of weapons.

Hey, take care over there. May there be no question about it, I think you and every one over there is an absolute hero and a true patriot. Hope to hear allot from you on this site. Thumbs up.

Thanks for asking. The answer is yes. It's all open source information. What I'm NOT allowed to talk about is:

- The frequencies we use (sorry guys)
- Operating procedures
- COMSEC (vitrually anything about this is no-go)

Most of the capabilities are open source and, if you go someplace like fas.org, you can find most of it out.

I agree with you 100% on spread spectrum...which WIFI is by the way. DSSS (Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum). Spread Spectrum + encryption is certainly the way to go.

Thanks also for your kind words. There are a lot of great soldiers over here. Just doing our jobs.


MAJ Bob Butts

 

[N_Jay]

There you got four paragraphs to look at and wonder what the hell I'm saying, because frankly I don't think no one understands me.


:lol:

Well if NO ONE understands you, the problem could be, . . . Oh never mind! :twisted:

JTRS was to create a radio platform to communicate with the multitude of EXISTING systems.

You keep implying the fix is to put in ONE SYSTEM.
Well, I can tell you a few things after over 25 years in this business.

1) There is NO one system that meets everyone’s needs.
2) There is no way to change everyone to that system if it did exist.
3) Sat Comms while great for many applications are UNSUITABLE to UNUSABLE for most applications.
This is also true for all the other "Miracle" solutions. WiFi, Spread Spectrum, UWB, Mesh, etc., etc., ETC!

 

[poltergeisty]

Ok, I appreciate your take on my options though. I guess it is more a pipe dream then anything. 25 years Wow. May I ask what companies or company you work or have worked for in the radio business? If this is of a military background or sworn to secrecy I can understand the need for you not to say. I know some one with the same experience from the Vietnam war. I don't know why he still can't say much. Must be something totally unbelievable.

I would like to take this time now and disagree on your indicated 1) and 2) comments respectfully. :lol: Boy they need a happy face with dimples emoticon because mine are bright and shiny right now.

1) "There is NO one system that meets everyone’s needs." Dose the APCO-25 now not meet anyones requirements. My point, if you dream it. You can achieve it. Hopefully! The proof is right now with these new systems installed all over. Yes true in that each agency has there own "apparent" needs but to me the military is like one big fist, this fist is powered by team work the unification of communication are the nerves and veins that power this great fist. Keeping in mind that this fist also acts as a open hand.

2)"There is no way to change everyone to that system if it did exist. " How did they with the APCO-25 compliance? My point, if you dream it. You can achieve it. They moved everyone to digital in a hell of a hurry, it seems. I also would like to point out that if the idea of digital communications and true interoperability was mentioned from someone like me 20 years ago I would most certainly get the same baha humbug.

Ok on to this comment. "Well if NO ONE understands you, the problem could be, . . . Oh never mind". Let me see if I can fill in the blank. Is it perhaps my writing skills? Whether that be sentence structure, grammar or punctuation? My worst subject ever was, has and may always will be. WRITING. Of course the fate lyes within me.

My favorite subjects in school where and still are. Science, all forms, Social studies, Math. Believe it or not I looked forward to math classes. The literature art's and all of the other English related stuff. Plaaaa!

Kinda went of topic there but had to respond.

 

[N_Jay]

1) "There is NO one system that meets everyone’s needs." Dose the APCO-25 now not meet anyones requirements.

2)"There is no way to change everyone to that system if it did exist. " How did they with the APCO-25 compliance?

1) P-25 is not one SYSTEM. It is a set of technologies that can be used to build a variety of system architectures.

These architectures can meet MANY, but not ALL the needs out there.

2) P25 is still being rolled out, it iwill be many years (maybe never) before it is the domenent standards, and even then, some systems will continue to be deployed with other technology sets.

 

[poltergeisty]

I agree with you 100% on spread spectrum...which WIFI is by the way. DSSS (Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum). Spread Spectrum + encryption is certainly the way to go.

I really never new -WI_FI- was modulated in spread spectrum fashion. I thought it to be just a digital modulation. Goes to show you I need to read more about the technology out there. Thanks for the heads up.