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| Amateur Radio Data Transmissions For discussion of all modes used to send data such as APRS and packet. |
06-20-2011, 12:19 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: St Gabriel, Louisiana
Posts: 826
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Ben,
As a former Vollie FF let me first thank you for thinking of ways to involve your local FFs. Contrary to what one post mentioned regarding vollies receiving stipends, it is true in some but not all departments. My local VFD does not offer any pay but there is swag such as VFD t-shirts and coffee mugs given out at holiday parties and such.
Also, as you mentioned, my local VFD is actually 2 separate organizations. The VFD itself, composed of the members, which is a tax exempt 501c3 organization and the District which actually owns the buildings and all the equipment including the trucks.
As a regular APRS user (look for my car on aprs.fl as kc5sas) as well as a Parish (county) RACES Officer let me throw out a couple ideas.
Instead of setting up the beacons on different Fire trucks use ham POVs. What I'm saying is, if you are simply wishing to demonstrate the vaule of APRS to the local VFD and it's officers, have your local hams or ham clubs as the operators. Talk to the VFD officers or Chief and ask to be a guest at an upcoming meeting. My former department has monthly business meetings and regularly has guests as speakers. If you can get a spot on their agenda for a short timeframe you can put together a presentation regarding APRS. Many VFDs have projectors for use during training on Powerpoint or DVD presentations.
Findout how big their meeting space is and how many additional guests they can handle. Then start contacting the local hams and arrainging for them to come to the VFD for the meeting. See if you can get the local club to post it as a special meeting or activity for members. Set up the APRS beacons in the hams cars before the VFD meeting.
On the night of the VFD meeting... Show up with your laptop and plug it in and give a short slideshow of what APRS is and the usefuleness of the tech. Then, as you are speaking, have the other hams leave and get in their cars. As they drive out of the station parking lot you switch on UiView or, if the station has wifi, over to aprs.fl and show a map with the track of the hams as they do a short drive through the district.
Explain how this technology and the hams themselves can be used during an emergency.
As for tracking the fire trucks, find out if there is anyone in your ham club or county government who can write grant applications for tracking systems for your fire trucks. There are grants out there but you have to know where to look and how to ask for them. Getting these grants for your VFD and having them equipted with public safety band vehicle tracking systems will be a big help to them.
OK, back to talking about APRS.
Another avenue for getting APRS, and ham radio in general, in front of the local VFD and government officials may be via your local RACES officer. As the Parish RACES guy here I attend bimonthly meetings at the Parish Office of Emergency Preparedness. These meetings are for the Local Emergency Planning Committee (LEPC) and are attended by officials and representitives from local gov such as the Sheriff's Office and Fire Depts to major industry such as the chemical plants and even the State prisons we have here. The area Red Cross chapter even sends a guy out to represent the chapter and report on responces to house fires and such. ( Committees )
The LEPC meetings are good place to demonstrate the usefulness of APRS in the same way I suggested for the VFD. Again, try to involve local hams, get them to come to a LEPC meeting then get them to drive out in the area while you show the tracking map on a projector.
Do you have any active CERT teams in your area? ( CERT : Community Emergency Response Teams (CERT) ) Part of the CERT training could be classes on ham radio. Getting your CERT members trained up as Techs can be a big benefit and they could be used as additional RACES volunteers when called out. As with the VFD, there are grants for radio gear through the OEP for CERT teams. Once you have CERT volunteers trained as hams you can find grants to by APRS capable radios such as the new Kenwood HTs. These can be kept at the OEP and issued out by the RACES officer during an activation or drill. As with the VFD and LEPC, a demonstration to your local CERT team could result in them pursueing this route.
No CERT team around you? How about getting the local ARES types cross trained as CERT? That's what one area ham club did here. They require all hams wanting to participate in ARES to take CERT training so that they can be listed with the OEP under the CERT program for that Parish. In this way they serve the local OEP and get grants for gear such as a well equiped commo trailer. They are purchasing Kenwood APRS HTs for use by their members during activations.
Anyway, sorry for the long post but I wanted to help out with a few ideas off the top of my head. Take care and good luck.
Steve Raacke, KC5SAS
Iberville Parish RACES Officer |
06-23-2011, 8:50 AM
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APRS cannot be used for Part 90 operations, per Bob Bruninga's "GPL". If you want simple vehicle tracking without the licensing issues (both GPL and FCC), then go with one of the many commercial solutions that are out there. Depending on what type of radios you have, an AVL system can be easily added to your radio system, and will be completely transparent to the end users.
__________________
John "Smokey Behr" Gleichweit FF1/EMT, CCNA, MCSE
N6FOG - CalEMA 51-507
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06-23-2011, 9:17 AM
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Thank you Steve, and everyone else for your replies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellblock776
Ben,
As a former Vollie FF let me first thank you for thinking of ways to involve your local FFs. Contrary to what one post mentioned regarding vollies receiving stipends, it is true in some but not all departments. My local VFD does not offer any pay but there is swag such as VFD t-shirts and coffee mugs given out at holiday parties and such.
Also, as you mentioned, my local VFD is actually 2 separate organizations. The VFD itself, composed of the members, which is a tax exempt 501c3 organization and the District which actually owns the buildings and all the equipment including the trucks.
As a regular APRS user (look for my car on aprs.fl as kc5sas) as well as a Parish (county) RACES Officer let me throw out a couple ideas.
Instead of setting up the beacons on different Fire trucks use ham POVs. What I'm saying is, if you are simply wishing to demonstrate the vaule of APRS to the local VFD and it's officers, have your local hams or ham clubs as the operators. Talk to the VFD officers or Chief and ask to be a guest at an upcoming meeting. My former department has monthly business meetings and regularly has guests as speakers. If you can get a spot on their agenda for a short timeframe you can put together a presentation regarding APRS. Many VFDs have projectors for use during training on Powerpoint or DVD presentations.
Findout how big their meeting space is and how many additional guests they can handle. Then start contacting the local hams and arrainging for them to come to the VFD for the meeting. See if you can get the local club to post it as a special meeting or activity for members. Set up the APRS beacons in the hams cars before the VFD meeting.
On the night of the VFD meeting... Show up with your laptop and plug it in and give a short slideshow of what APRS is and the usefuleness of the tech. Then, as you are speaking, have the other hams leave and get in their cars. As they drive out of the station parking lot you switch on UiView or, if the station has wifi, over to aprs.fl and show a map with the track of the hams as they do a short drive through the district.
Explain how this technology and the hams themselves can be used during an emergency.
As for tracking the fire trucks, find out if there is anyone in your ham club or county government who can write grant applications for tracking systems for your fire trucks. There are grants out there but you have to know where to look and how to ask for them. Getting these grants for your VFD and having them equipted with public safety band vehicle tracking systems will be a big help to them.
OK, back to talking about APRS.
Another avenue for getting APRS, and ham radio in general, in front of the local VFD and government officials may be via your local RACES officer. As the Parish RACES guy here I attend bimonthly meetings at the Parish Office of Emergency Preparedness. These meetings are for the Local Emergency Planning Committee (LEPC) and are attended by officials and representitives from local gov such as the Sheriff's Office and Fire Depts to major industry such as the chemical plants and even the State prisons we have here. The area Red Cross chapter even sends a guy out to represent the chapter and report on responces to house fires and such. ( Committees )
The LEPC meetings are good place to demonstrate the usefulness of APRS in the same way I suggested for the VFD. Again, try to involve local hams, get them to come to a LEPC meeting then get them to drive out in the area while you show the tracking map on a projector.
Do you have any active CERT teams in your area? ( CERT : Community Emergency Response Teams (CERT) ) Part of the CERT training could be classes on ham radio. Getting your CERT members trained up as Techs can be a big benefit and they could be used as additional RACES volunteers when called out. As with the VFD, there are grants for radio gear through the OEP for CERT teams. Once you have CERT volunteers trained as hams you can find grants to by APRS capable radios such as the new Kenwood HTs. These can be kept at the OEP and issued out by the RACES officer during an activation or drill. As with the VFD and LEPC, a demonstration to your local CERT team could result in them pursueing this route.
No CERT team around you? How about getting the local ARES types cross trained as CERT? That's what one area ham club did here. They require all hams wanting to participate in ARES to take CERT training so that they can be listed with the OEP under the CERT program for that Parish. In this way they serve the local OEP and get grants for gear such as a well equiped commo trailer. They are purchasing Kenwood APRS HTs for use by their members during activations.
Anyway, sorry for the long post but I wanted to help out with a few ideas off the top of my head. Take care and good luck.
Steve Raacke, KC5SAS
Iberville Parish RACES Officer |
Just for some additional background:
I recently moved from Monroe to (adjacent) Livingston county, and joined my town's fire department. I'm completely new, and have no background in firefighting. I am a member of Monroe County ARES/RACES, and have attended LEPC meetings there. I do not believe Livingston County has an ARES group, or if they do it is very small and just starting. I personally have taken the CERT course, but there is no official group around here.
My POV is equipped with APRS (FTM-350). I can certainly just show them aprs.fi and say "this is what a commercial vehicle tracking system can give you." Unfortunately that doesn't really accomplish my goals of educating the public about amateur radio and it's usefulness beyond CW.
I do appreciate everyone's input but it sounds like my original idea is impractical if not impossible primarily due to FCC regulations and other licensing restrictions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeybehr
APRS cannot be used for Part 90 operations, per Bob Bruninga's "GPL". If you want simple vehicle tracking without the licensing issues (both GPL and FCC), then go with one of the many commercial solutions that are out there. Depending on what type of radios you have, an AVL system can be easily added to your radio system, and will be completely transparent to the end users.
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Just for the record, if it is licensed under the GPL, there is nothing saying you can't use it for commercial purposes. If Bob is saying that then it is my belief that he is in violation of the GPL. I'm not at all an expert, but if it were true that GPL software / technologies could not be used for commercial purposes, then Linux could not be run in datacenters. OpenOffice could not be used to create professional spreadsheets, or presentations given at business meetings. OS X would not exist, as many of the underlying tools are GPL based.
This point is of course moot, and is made simply to be argumentative, based on my post above.
__________________
Ben -- N0BDW
Volunteer Firefighter
Owner of many radios (Yaesu, Icom, Motorola, Wouxun, etc etc)
Last edited by N0BDW; 06-23-2011 at 9:20 AM..
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06-23-2011, 1:26 PM
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Member
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 825
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I don't believe Bob Bruninga would have an issue with police or fire using APRS in the performance of their duties. Soon after Bob introduced the MIM APRS module, I spoke to a CA county (Riverside I think) sheriff's deputy that used MIM modules on their frequency. Bob provided the deputy his APRS packet structure so an third party software program could be developed to display multiple APRS vehicle locations on Klynas Engineering Streets On a Disk mapping product.
Years ago, Bob and I met in person to discuss implementation of APRS for a non-domestic government agency. He allowed its use. Bob was kind enough to scan the government provided paper map for use with his APRSDOS mapping software.
The main issue that will need to be addressed before adding APRS to a voice dispatch public safety radio system is the (approx. 1/2 second long) audible squawk that same radio frequency users will most likely hear, and have to contend with. This is for both the RSL holder (your agency operates under) and any co-channel that may consider the squawk harmful interference if they don't understand what it is, and/or agree to its use.
First thing, I suggest you educate, then demonstrate APRS to the individual in charge of the RSL that you operate under. You could have this individual listen to the HAM APRS 144.39 frequency and hear the APRS sound. You will need to anticipate how often the squawk would be heard on the public safety frequency depending on each APRS module's configuration.
Keep in mind, the nature of amateur APRS on 144.39 is dedicated-data operation, so, once a setup is working properly, there is no real need to listen to the radio's speaker audio. Adding APRS to a voice frequency requires careful consideration, coordination, cooperation and agreement to be deployed successfully.
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10-25-2011, 1:26 PM
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Amateur Radio
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Collegeville, PA
Posts: 8
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The volunteer fire trucks and ambulances in my area (South East PA) are running APRS.Very cool to hear something on a scanner, then watch them move on a screen little while later.
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10-25-2011, 5:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recompiler
The volunteer fire trucks and ambulances in my area (South East PA) are running APRS.Very cool to hear something on a scanner, then watch them move on a screen little while later.
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Huh. I'd mostly forgotten about this project to be honest, but I'm glad to hear someone is doing it (hopefully correctly). What call sign(s) do they operate under?
__________________
Ben -- N0BDW
Volunteer Firefighter
Owner of many radios (Yaesu, Icom, Motorola, Wouxun, etc etc)
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10-25-2011, 5:37 PM
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Member
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Amateur Radio
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Collegeville, PA
Posts: 8
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Quickly pulled up an ambulance to see "EMS OSJ3 (<i>from AB3LT-1</i>)"
EMS OSJ3 (from AB3LT-1) [track] [info] FN20IA
[APZS13 via TCPIP*,qAS,KB1RXA]
Seaberg II, Stephen E (extra)
2011-10-24 06:41:48 PM PDT -0700
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10-25-2011, 6:50 PM
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Member
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,647
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I think if AB3LT isn't riding on that ambulance he may have an FCC problem. I think I'd get an opinion from them before using my call sign for that APRS transmitter.
- 'Doc
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10-25-2011, 10:26 PM
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My thoughts exactly, if there is not an licensed amateur operator in the vehicle that is beaconing APRS, then there is an issue. To my knowledge, a mobile environment does equate to a remote station (it is not under direct control remotely) nor does it qualify as a repeater, hence no way way to shut the radio down via control operator.
Just my .02
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10-25-2011, 10:35 PM
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Amateur Radio
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Collegeville, PA
Posts: 8
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Can't speak to legality. I see your point and think you're right but I do enjoy seeing the moving map.
When I'm doing search and rescue my radios are transmitting my callsign and a tactical callsign but then again the radios are bolted to my roof or strapped to my chest or lashed to my quad.
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10-26-2011, 10:27 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Superior
Posts: 310
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If you look a little more closely, you will see all of those are objects being sourced by AB3LT-1, so no illegal stations/transmitters. I'm thinking the original data is from a commercial AVL system either on Part 90 frequencies or through a cell network and AB3LT is getting it off the air, depending on protocol, or a feed from the CAD system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by recompiler
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10-26-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recompiler
Quickly pulled up an ambulance to see "EMS OSJ3 (<i>from AB3LT-1</i>)"
EMS OSJ3 (from AB3LT-1) [track] [info] FN20IA
[APZS13 via TCPIP*,qAS,KB1RXA]
Seaberg II, Stephen E (extra)
2011-10-24 06:41:48 PM PDT -0700
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Very cool.
__________________
Ben -- N0BDW
Volunteer Firefighter
Owner of many radios (Yaesu, Icom, Motorola, Wouxun, etc etc)
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10-26-2011, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recompiler
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If they are using county (?) frequencies, then the only questions are, are the frequencies licensed for data as well as voice, and for beaconing/broadcasting? |
01-24-2013, 8:23 PM
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Our club had this thought a few years ago for a bicycle event. The question about the control op cam into question. We did have a licensed ham that was also a paramedic participating in this event. We had thought that he could possibly act as a "ride along" in the ambulence to cover as the control op. The problem ended up being liability issues with the ambulence and our ham/paramedic not being employeed by the ambulence. Needless to say we scrapped this idea. In the end we got a cell phone number for the ambulence. Our net control could see the ham rovers on the route. The net control could direct call the assigned ambulence to the place of emergency.
Jon
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01-25-2013, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC9AXZ
Our club had this thought a few years ago for a bicycle event. The question about the control op cam into question. We did have a licensed ham that was also a paramedic participating in this event. We had thought that he could possibly act as a "ride along" in the ambulence to cover as the control op. The problem ended up being liability issues with the ambulence and our ham/paramedic not being employeed by the ambulence. Needless to say we scrapped this idea. In the end we got a cell phone number for the ambulence. Our net control could see the ham rovers on the route. The net control could direct call the assigned ambulence to the place of emergency.
Jon
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What you could do also and we have done this in past events like the Empire state games, the opening ceremony we had a stagging area for Fire Ems and PD and we had a ham op at that location to relay any info if someone needed EMS. No liability there and perfectly legal.
In my area some of the red cross vehicles have APRS trackers for a races stand point being that when the vehicles go out in a disaster there is usually a ham abroad the vehicle being that we provide them with back up comm's and all of the volunteers that are involved in Red Cross for radio Comm's are all hams
__________________
PRO-197, XTS3000, Astro Saber HT1250, MT2000, HT1000, FT60R, VX8GR, UVD-1P(2/1.25), TM741, FT8800R, DR235T.
WQOK964
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01-26-2013, 1:43 AM
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Member
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,647
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The biggy with APRS is that you can't do 'commercial' stuff on the ham bands. There have been commercial tracking systems in use for a lot of years, Sears does it, so do several of the trucking lines. The 'new' digital modes are certainly capable of it, and I know that the local PD does tracking with their "Moto-Trouble" system.
- 'Doc
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01-26-2013, 4:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtDoc
and I know that the local PD does tracking with their "Moto-Trouble" system.
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There isn't a smiley face big enough for how funny I think that is. I'm stealing it, FYI. |
01-26-2013, 3:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,647
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All I can say is that Motorola better hang on to the salesman who talked the locals into a "Moto-Trouble" system. The other side of that is that if I ever am in the market, and I see him on my porch, I'm gonna shoot that @#$ guy/gal/whatever!
I'm sure there has to be a good "Moto-Trouble" system somewhere, but I also think they are few and far between from what I've seen/read/heard of.
YMMV
- 'Doc
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01-26-2013, 5:13 PM
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APRS on (volunteer) fire trucks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtDoc
All I can say is that Motorola better hang on to the salesman who talked the locals into a "Moto-Trouble" system. The other side of that is that if I ever am in the market, and I see him on my porch, I'm gonna shoot that @#$ guy/gal/whatever!
I'm sure there has to be a good "Moto-Trouble" system somewhere, but I also think they are few and far between from what I've seen/read/heard of.
YMMV
- 'Doc
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I can tell you that the connect plus system my job used sucks. The audio isn't too bad as long as the other person is on the same site. If they are affiliated to a different site then the other user forget it the audio sounds like pure crap.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
PRO-197, XTS3000, Astro Saber HT1250, MT2000, HT1000, FT60R, VX8GR, UVD-1P(2/1.25), TM741, FT8800R, DR235T.
WQOK964
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