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Amateur Radio Data Transmissions For discussion of all modes used to send data such as APRS and packet.

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Old 10-24-2012, 3:32 AM
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Default Interoperation between Garmin Rino 650 and Yaesu 8DR

I Have recently purchased a Garmin Rino 650, frs/gmrs two way radio with gps. There are two features that this radio has 1. Locates another Rino user using GPS (by sending / receiving co-ordinates of the units) and 2. it can send text messages from unit to unit. My question is it possible to receive GPS location data from garmin unit and the Garmin Messages to my Yaesu 8DR Unit from Garmin Rinos. Any information on the above is deeply appreciated.
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Old 10-24-2012, 1:51 PM
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No. The Garmin Rino format is not compatible with the aprs format used in the Yaesu.
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:20 PM
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Thank for the reply. As pointed out APRS uses 8DR AX.25 Protocol, so what does garmin Rinos use? and how to capture that using a TNC and yaesu , I have got no idea of what frequency they use for sending the data. I do not have high end tools (spectrum analyser). Any info on the frequency (Band) for data on Rino and protocol info will help .. thanks once again. I have tried to get info on net about that, but i could not find. .. any pointers will also help.
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Old 10-27-2012, 2:41 AM
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So far I had no luck in getting the details of the protocol :-( how ever researching the topic i ended up on the link:-http://www.radio-active.net.au/web3/APRS/Resources/RINO
Which pretty much sums up everything i was thinking of using Garmin Rinos for. Hope this helps, for people who are trying to do the same thing.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:36 PM
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There was some research done a while back on the Garmin Rino radios to see if we could decode the packets with a soundcard or other DSP solution. It was determined that the data MIGHT be 600 baud MSK packets.
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Old 10-29-2012, 5:52 PM
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Thank you for your reply, I have made some progress in finding protocol for garmin Rino's data packet, but still too early, i think its possible to integrate the Garmin Rino Units unchanged to APRS network, .... I have a crude system, what I plan to do is Make a receiver to listen to Rino's Data Channel, when a message is received convert that to APRS message format AX.25 and re-transmit that on 144.390 (10 W) on the transmitter side integrating to the current APRS infrastructure, as for now this is one way broadcast . There are lot of problems however the major one is to decode the Garmin Message protocol. Any idea's welcome ..
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Old 10-30-2012, 5:28 PM
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Default Interoperation Between Garmin Rino 650 And Yaesu 8DR

Argent Data Systems

https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/p...roducts_id=158

You could check with Argent Data. I got a G-TRANS cable from them and use that to get NMEA-0183 data for my Uniden Home Patrol HP-1.

Last edited by JASII; 10-30-2012 at 5:29 PM.. Reason: Added A URL
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
You could check with Argent Data. I got a G-TRANS cable from them and use that to get NMEA-0183 data for my Uniden Home Patrol HP-1.
Thanks for your reply, Iam not trying to get the NMEA Data via Rino Unit - want iam trying is to capture the Message Sent By RINO (Location data (lat/lon) + UID + Other Parameters ...) wirelessly to a UNIT that will convert the RINO Format to APRS Compatible message and re-transmit that on 144.390 to a Digipeater ...As not modify the RINO's, will keep them portable, this will ensure that any Rino could be integrated into APRS network unmodified... The site did help in getting the processing hardware thank you, I have been able to get bits and pieces working but still its not with out errors... I will publish the design and the software once they are acceptably working.

Another way is to use a RINO IN LISTENING MODE connected to computer , convert the packets and retransmit to APRS , This way all RINO USERS can be displayed on a Map before they are sent to Internet, this works fine.

Last edited by owais818; 10-31-2012 at 12:55 AM..
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Old 11-11-2012, 5:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owais818 View Post
Thanks for your reply, Iam not trying to get the NMEA Data via Rino Unit - want iam trying is to capture the Message Sent By RINO (Location data (lat/lon) + UID + Other Parameters ...) wirelessly to a UNIT that will convert the RINO Format to APRS Compatible message and re-transmit that on 144.390 to a Digipeater ...As not modify the RINO's, will keep them portable, this will ensure that any Rino could be integrated into APRS network unmodified... The site did help in getting the processing hardware thank you, I have been able to get bits and pieces working but still its not with out errors... I will publish the design and the software once they are acceptably working.

Another way is to use a RINO IN LISTENING MODE connected to computer , convert the packets and retransmit to APRS , This way all RINO USERS can be displayed on a Map before they are sent to Internet, this works fine.
Have you looked at XASTIR? This is a Linux APRS client, but they have a Rino mode that will periodically ping a serial connected Rino unit for any Rino units in it's station list. It then extracts the stations and places them on the APRS map.
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Old 11-14-2012, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KE4NYV View Post
Have you looked at XASTIR? This is a Linux APRS client, but they have a Rino mode that will periodically ping a serial connected Rino unit for any Rino units in it's station list. It then extracts the stations and places them on the APRS map.
Thank you for your reply, I have gone through the XASTIR (linux APRS client) which was very helpfull and quite similar to my approach, I have finally made good amount of progress in getting my GARMIN RINO 650 and Yaesu 8DR "talking" to each other through a intermediate system. I finally wrote my extra exam as well and passed it......I would like to thank you and all the people who showed me the way... I will make the Intermediate system into a Small box that will be mobile and can be battery operated...... however I will have to wait till my next pay check to get a few components.....

Last edited by owais818; 11-14-2012 at 3:28 PM..
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:30 PM
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The only problem with your setup is that the US version of the Rino is a 462.XXXX/467.XXXX MHz frs/gmrs radio unless you have the 142/153 MHz Nordic, Norway/Sweden model, which isn't out yet so you most likely don't have that model and it doesn't cover the ham bands anyway.

All the legal S#!t aside, your taking a transmission originating from 462/467 MHz and rebroadcasting it on 144.39MHz amateur, now do you see any problem with this method especially since you appear to be a newly licensed ham?

Now there is another way to get the 462/467 MHz US Rino into the 440 to 449.9875 US ham band but it isn't documented or known outside or inside of Garmin Engineering nor is it a user modification simply because it requires extensive RF board changes to make the radio play there which removes its type acceptance for use at 462/467 MHz.

To do things leagaly for ham band use only it would actually only cover as low as 442 MHz and up to 449.9875 since 442Mhz is the low coverage end of the VCO.

To finalize the conversion you would need to reroute the Fujitsu MB15E03 PLL's clock, data and chip enable lines to a preprogrammed Pic processor or a processor of your choice to bit bang the frequency in the 440 ham band so that the receiver is then using high side Local oscillator injection in the ham bands and change 3 caps and 2 resistors in the synthesizer loop filter to lower tx spurs below 449 Mhz.

This mod also requires replacing the narrow 462 to 468 Mhz receiver SAW filter with a proper filter in the same footprint for the US ham band.
And changing 3 caps in the transmitter low pass filter to achieve acceptable 2nd and 3rd harmonic rejection, fortunately the transmitter power amp stages are wide enough that the radio will still put out 4 watts in the 442 to 449.9875 MHz band.

Then there are some minor setup issues with actually setting the radio to think its on a gmrs channel so that it truly does put out 4 to 5 watts but this is simply radio keypad programming.

As you can probably see I have already done this to a Rino 655 but since the modulation is not legal for ham use I don't use themodified radio anymore on these bands, it was just done as I mention to my radio to see how well it worked until another engineer mentioned that the MSK modulation is not a protocol used on the US ham bands, and if you ask anybody at garmin if they know about this they will tell you that they don't as it is not authorized as this was a privately owned radio done at home on my own time all with my own purchased digikey components.

Also the baseband GPS and FM audio processor is a specially made CML microelectronics chip with a MSK modulation which is not quite legal on the ham bands, now I'm not saying that the FCC would do anything about this but there is a fine line as to what type of modulation you can and cannot use on the ham bands and so far the Rino doesn't meet any of these.

When this radio was certified it was done for 3 countries in 3 different versions, US and Canada in your version, Australia in a slightly different UHF band model and the Nordic version which is the above mentioned 142/153 MHz ultra narrowband 3.5 KHz rx bandwidth model.

Again as mentioned above none of these models by the way use a modulation that is as yet type accepted by the FCC for the ham bands.

The nordic VHF model is even harder to get to work in the 144 to 147.995Mhz ham band but it can also be done.

Mike
Olathe, KS.

Last edited by mm; 11-16-2012 at 11:24 PM..
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Old 11-22-2012, 9:40 PM
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Olathe, KS? I'm going to go ahead and assume you work directly for Garmin. Came close to moving there when I interviewed with Garmin about eight years ago.

Also, with the XASTIR method, you are not re-transmitting the Rino positions pulled from the attached Rino. You are simply grabbing the data and placing it on the local map on THAT computer. Nothing is re-transmitted, for those very same legal reasons you mentioned. It's a tactical feature of XASTIR to keep tabs on the Rino units in the field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm View Post
The only problem with your setup is that the US version of the Rino is a 462.XXXX/467.XXXX MHz frs/gmrs radio unless you have the 142/153 MHz Nordic, Norway/Sweden model, which isn't out yet so you most likely don't have that model and it doesn't cover the ham bands anyway.

All the legal S#!t aside, your taking a transmission originating from 462/467 MHz and rebroadcasting it on 144.39MHz amateur, now do you see any problem with this method especially since you appear to be a newly licensed ham?

Now there is another way to get the 462/467 MHz US Rino into the 440 to 449.9875 US ham band but it isn't documented or known outside or inside of Garmin Engineering nor is it a user modification simply because it requires extensive RF board changes to make the radio play there which removes its type acceptance for use at 462/467 MHz.

To do things leagaly for ham band use only it would actually only cover as low as 442 MHz and up to 449.9875 since 442Mhz is the low coverage end of the VCO.

To finalize the conversion you would need to reroute the Fujitsu MB15E03 PLL's clock, data and chip enable lines to a preprogrammed Pic processor or a processor of your choice to bit bang the frequency in the 440 ham band so that the receiver is then using high side Local oscillator injection in the ham bands and change 3 caps and 2 resistors in the synthesizer loop filter to lower tx spurs below 449 Mhz.

This mod also requires replacing the narrow 462 to 468 Mhz receiver SAW filter with a proper filter in the same footprint for the US ham band.
And changing 3 caps in the transmitter low pass filter to achieve acceptable 2nd and 3rd harmonic rejection, fortunately the transmitter power amp stages are wide enough that the radio will still put out 4 watts in the 442 to 449.9875 MHz band.

Then there are some minor setup issues with actually setting the radio to think its on a gmrs channel so that it truly does put out 4 to 5 watts but this is simply radio keypad programming.

As you can probably see I have already done this to a Rino 655 but since the modulation is not legal for ham use I don't use themodified radio anymore on these bands, it was just done as I mention to my radio to see how well it worked until another engineer mentioned that the MSK modulation is not a protocol used on the US ham bands, and if you ask anybody at garmin if they know about this they will tell you that they don't as it is not authorized as this was a privately owned radio done at home on my own time all with my own purchased digikey components.

Also the baseband GPS and FM audio processor is a specially made CML microelectronics chip with a MSK modulation which is not quite legal on the ham bands, now I'm not saying that the FCC would do anything about this but there is a fine line as to what type of modulation you can and cannot use on the ham bands and so far the Rino doesn't meet any of these.

When this radio was certified it was done for 3 countries in 3 different versions, US and Canada in your version, Australia in a slightly different UHF band model and the Nordic version which is the above mentioned 142/153 MHz ultra narrowband 3.5 KHz rx bandwidth model.

Again as mentioned above none of these models by the way use a modulation that is as yet type accepted by the FCC for the ham bands.

The nordic VHF model is even harder to get to work in the 144 to 147.995Mhz ham band but it can also be done.

Mike
Olathe, KS.
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Old 11-23-2012, 8:59 PM
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Owais818 isn't really clear as to what he has done so far but he mentioned the use of the VX-8 and the GMRS/FRS Rino and it only struck a bit of worry in me that he was cross banding from GMRS/FRS to ham.

Yes you guessed it correctly both Olathe and Northern Oregon Garmin,

I have had the pleasure of converting the UHF Rino 655T to the 440 ham band but I don't use the radio anymore, it's not that I don't have enough time for radio it's just that APRS/GPS tracking is boring anyways, besides I don't need a GPS anyway, my wife is always driving!
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Old 12-01-2012, 2:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm View Post
Also the baseband GPS and FM audio processor is a specially made CML microelectronics chip with a MSK modulation which is not quite legal on the ham bands, now I'm not saying that the FCC would do anything about this but there is a fine line as to what type of modulation you can and cannot use on the ham bands and so far the Rino doesn't meet any of these.

When this radio was certified it was done for 3 countries in 3 different versions, US and Canada in your version, Australia in a slightly different UHF band model and the Nordic version which is the above mentioned 142/153 MHz ultra narrowband 3.5 KHz rx bandwidth model.

Again as mentioned above none of these models by the way use a modulation that is as yet type accepted by the FCC for the ham bands.

The nordic VHF model is even harder to get to work in the 144 to 147.995Mhz ham band but it can also be done.

Mike
Olathe, KS.
Correct me if I am wrong but the HAM bands do not have any or require FCC type acceptance for equipment or transmssion types like commercial equipment does. Under the experimental rules this type of transmission could be used, as long as it's not being used or done to hide or scramble ones transmissions.

If you feel there is a 'type acceptance' please post the FCC rules for me?
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Old 12-01-2012, 3:16 PM
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Only certain types of digital emissions are allowed on ham radio.
97.307, 97.309 and 97.311 explain what digital emission modes are allowed.
eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:43 PM
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Now if the FCC would approve the particular type of MSK modulation that the Rino uses on the ham bands then simply reprogramming the PLL for UHF ham bands using an external PIC or similar processor and changing out the front end SAW filter is a viable option but so far the FCC hasn't Ok'd this type of data transmission.
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