Yaesu FTM-400D

[N8OHU]

Originally Posted by kayn1n32008

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Youy would have to ask Yaesu themselves to get an answer. IMO, Yaesu either can not or will not listen to their customers. It is why I no longer use Yaesu mobile equipment. I went to Kenwood and could not be happier.

Well, they did publish a digital roadmap at the beginning of 2012 that said that they would produce a C4FM FDMA digital handheld and a C4FM FDMA digital mobile; all this was supposed to be preparation for a similar release of C4FM TDMA radios. Whether they follow through with that is not truly known, though rumors say that that they are proceeding to the TDMA stuff now, so they apparently think enough of them want TDMA and not D-Star. Keep your eyes open if you go to Dayton.

[kayn1n32008]

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Originally Posted by N8OHU

Well, they did publish a digital roadmap at the beginning of 2012 that said that they would produce a C4FM FDMA digital handheld and a C4FM FDMA digital mobile; all this was supposed to be preparation for a similar release of C4FM TDMA radios. Whether they follow through with that is not truly known, though rumors say that that they are proceeding to the TDMA stuff now, so they apparently think enough of them want TDMA and not D-Star. Keep your eyes open if you go to Dayton.

Unless it is directly compatable with DMR I'm not even interested in Yaesu's C4FM/TDMA

[kayn1n32008]

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Here's a thought. Yaesu's 'Digital Roadmap' is about a decade late. They are trying to push in with an unknown format. Icom was sucessful ONLY because there was nothing else. Now we have DStar, NXDN, P25, and DMR that have sucsessfully achieved, to one degree or another, fairly wide spread use in the ham community. I really do not think Yaesu stands a chance with this unknown format.

I was taught at a young age that you only have one chance to make a first impression. For Yaesu's C4FM, that was Dayton 2012. They showed up un-prepared with zero info other than 'it's not P25'.

[MikeOxlong]

Not sure how useful this new mode will be without any infrastructure to support it? You could probably hook a couple of modded mobiles up that would pass any signal and that would work but you'd be without any sort of error correction (if this new mode even supports error correction).

[kayn1n32008]

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Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

Not sure how useful this new mode will be without any infrastructure to support it? You could probably hook a couple of modded mobiles up that would pass any signal and that would work but you'd be without any sort of error correction (if this new mode even supports error correction).

Agreed Mike. Why offer a mobile and portable with out any infrastructure? Makes zero sense at all.

[W9BU]

This video reports that Yaesu had nothing to say at the recent Orlando Hamcation about their new digital radios:

HamRadioNow - Episode 57 - Kenwood/Yaesu Update at Orlando

The Yaesu booth report starts about 3:15 into the video. Supposedly Yaesu claims that they are not abandoning the project, but they also aren't saying much about it.

[kayn1n32008]

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By doing that ,IMO, they are shooting themselves in the foot

[rrlanders2]

You can argue about standards, protocol, latest technology, where it comes from, who it was designed
for etc, etc, until you know what freezes over.

The market will make the decision. Anyone remember VCR Beta vs VHS format ?

D*Star has the lions share of the market, it's growing, has infrastructure and works. Yaesu is swimming upstream and not doing it very well - I was at Dayton last year (2012) and their reps knew
nothing - other than the protocol was not P25 (if I recall correctly).

I wouldn't bet money on Yaesu - their track record is poor (.e.g WIRES), and they don't seem
to be doing any better with their digital radio - other than spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

Buy something you can use that won't be an orphan

73, WI0T

[MOONBOOTS]

Originally Posted by rrlanders2

The market will make the decision. Anyone remember VCR Beta vs VHS format ?

Yeah, due to slick salesmanship, VHS won, but Beta was the superior format. What I don't understand is the commercial arm of Yaesu is already making DMR radios, so why couldn't the amateur division make a DMR radio? They already had the technology.

[N8OHU]

Originally Posted by MOONBOOTS

Yeah, due to slick salesmanship, VHS won, but Beta was the superior format. What I don't understand is the commercial arm of Yaesu is already making DMR radios, so why couldn't the amateur division make a DMR radio? They already had the technology.

You're forgetting that Yaesu Musen is no longer a part of Vertex Standard, and even when they were, the Vertex Standard DMR stuff was made by Motorola (confirmed by someone that has opened one up and found a Motorola logo inside). And, as I already pointed out, they had started on the mystery digital mode radios already, with plans to make a DMR/TDMA radio later.

[beischel]

Originally Posted by MOONBOOTS

Yeah, due to slick salesmanship, VHS won, but Beta was the superior format. What I don't understand is the commercial arm of Yaesu is already making DMR radios, so why couldn't the amateur division make a DMR radio? They already had the technology.

I don't think it is about what they could make with what they already had.

The issue is simple. DMR was developed for a different market - commercial users.

DStar was only developed to address the needs and requirements of the amateur radio market.

Maybe Yaesu is trying to take technology they already know, and modify it for the amateur radio market.

That would make sense, but a poor marketing decision as it creates another fragmented balkanization of the amateur market.

While DMR may be great technology for the commercial space, it obviously is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with amateur radio. I looked at the programming example on the DMR-MARC group and it looks like a nightmare. Talkgroups...we don't use "talk groups" in amateur radio, and the appearance that every amateur using DMR having to be programming into a radio (Jeez, I hope that is not the case, but not sure why they show that), channels, zones, radios with serial numbers and registrations for EACH radio - commercial stuff, not oriented to amateur radio.

But as someone said, VHS won over Beta and Beta was a better format...and it was. Seems like slick Motorola salesmanship is selling some people on the commercial DMR stuff.

[kayn1n32008]

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I believe the increasing popularity of DMR is for a couple of reasons.

With DStar you are locked into one company for the 'subscriber' equipment. Myself I do not like Icom equipment. The accessories are way over priced.

Atleast with DMR you have options for the subscriber equipment, although to have a DMR-MARC repeater you must use TRBO.

DStar has weakness to it, like frame re-sync, or lack of it.


Yes DMR is like putting a round peg in a square hole, but of all the digital technologies out there it offers, IMO the best options.

[MOONBOOTS]

I look at it this way. Icom pays ham radio magazines like QST, & others thousands of dollars to promote & advertise their D-Star radios. Motorola does not advertise DMR-TRBO radios in any ham radio magazine, yet hundreds of hams are buying their product. I wonder why.

[beischel]

Yes, one company with DStar is an issue. Won't dispute that at all. \

I actually like the Icom radios. The ID-880H I have is wonderful. Great audio, super fast scan, and it will scan digital and FM at the same time. Not sure if DMR radios do that, but it would be nice to know.

Yes, Icom's accessories are expensive. I think that is pretty much true of Yaesu and Kenwood also. Why I usually try to buy third party accessories with any radio.

I might actually try DMR if and when we ever get a repeater, just to see if it offers anything more than DStar. From what I read, I still think DStar is better because it was designed for our market. But I always like to try stuff and worst case, I can always sell the DMR.

But no hurry, DStar is wonderful and folks using it across the world are great. There are so many add-ons with DStar (Dongles, DVAPs, Hotspots, D-RATs, DPRS, etc.) that are just not there yet with DMR. So I'll wait and see. DStar continues to grow and if anything, the Yaesu announcement and poor showing at Dayton last year helped it explode. Most retailers were out of DStar radio by mid-day on Saturday.

So it looks like amateur radio will have four to five digital modes for the foreseeable future.

[MikeOxlong]

Yup square peg, round hole.

Don't forget x.25 was also a commercial product which was adopted for amateur use.

I like Trbo's ability to have a linked conversation at the same time as a local conversation.

The ability to also support analog and digital is handy.

[N8OHU]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

Yup square peg, round hole.

Don't forget x.25 was also a commercial product which was adopted for amateur use.

I like Trbo's ability to have a linked conversation at the same time as a local conversation.

The ability to also support analog and digital is handy.

Mike,

One small problem with analog and digital on the same DMR repeater; you loose network connection ability, at least with MOTOTRBO. D-Star can do it, though not from Icom. D-Star also can do direct analog to digital conversion if someone takes the time to build that part of the protocol.

[beischel]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

Yup square peg, round hole.

Don't forget x.25 was also a commercial product which was adopted for amateur use.

I like Trbo's ability to have a linked conversation at the same time as a local conversation.

The ability to also support analog and digital is handy.

Yup, me too. I do it with DStar every day.

Agreed, X.25 was adapted for amateur use, and was designated as AX.25 for the amateur implementation. So it was customized for the amateur market. How has Mototrbo/DMR been customized for amateur use....kind of a ADMR?

[MikeOxlong]

Originally Posted by beischel

Yup, me too. I do it with DStar every day.

Do what with D-Star? Have a simultaneous local and linked conversation going on the repeater at the same time? I didn't think D-Star did TDMA?

I also didn't think D-Star supported analog operation? I'm curious about that because our local repeater group used a new frequency for the D-Star machine. If it could do both analog and digital, why didn't they just replace one of the analog machines?

[N8OHU]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

I also didn't think D-Star supported analog operation? I'm curious about that because our local repeater group used a new frequency for the D-Star machine. If it could do both analog and digital, why didn't they just replace one of the analog machines?

Most people don't look beyond what Icom offers to see what the ham radio community has created; that's where the Dual-Mode repeaters exist. Also, the analog bridging I mentioned is part of the D-Star protocol, which Icom chose not to implement, as it didn't fit their view of what D-Star should be.

[beischel]

While D-Star and other digital methods can mix analog and digital on the same repeater (btw, I think non-Icom D-Star repeaters can easily do this), I don't not think it is advisable.

Probably not an issue for the digital folks as the radio just mutes the FM signal, it could be impossible for an analog station to monitor the repeater.