Proper Repeater Etiqutte?

[Thadster]

So I am studying for my tech license, and was wondering about repeater use if you are traveling. I understand kicking in 20 bucks a year or so to help maintain a local repeater net in your local area. What are the guideline if you are traveling something like 500 miles? Is it cool to use repeaters along the way?

Thanks,

Thadster

[gewecke]

It sure is! But I would strongly suggest you pre-load the freqs.of the repeaters on your itinerary BEFORE you leave,so you're not diddling with the radio while you're trying to drive. Unless you can be the co-pilot then you can have even more fun!
Good luck and 73's!
N9ZAS

[mylt1]

i sat down one day and searched the interweb looking for repeaters in the areas i travel in. wrote them all down and then transferred them to a spreadsheet to keep them nice and clean. it also helps that my cell phone is a smartphone(pocketpc) which i can open the spreadsheet, so at any time i can look up whats in the area im in and program them in. if i know im going to be traveling i can program before hand but it doesnt take to long to program while your sitting at a gas pump fueling up.

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by Thadster

So I am studying for my tech license, and was wondering about repeater use if you are traveling. I understand kicking in 20 bucks a year or so to help maintain a local repeater net in your local area. What are the guideline if you are traveling something like 500 miles? Is it cool to use repeaters along the way?

Pick up a repeater directory. The one put out by the ARRL is a good one. The directory is going to show data on each repeater as to whether it's open, closed, or private. If it's listed as open, it's acceptable and encouraged for people to just drop by and use it.

If you become a regular user of a repeater, then it's often expected that you'll join the sponsoring organization and help support the thing. Closed and private repeaters REQUIRE that you join to support it, before you can use it.

[kc2rgw]

"Closed" repeaters are a lot more rare these days. So it's more unusual than not to have people give you a hard time for putting your call out on a strange machine. It's generally the closed systems where guys are all nutso over paying dues.

The trend slowed down because phone patches are almost non-existent and as a result are the phone bills associated with them. In the 80's heyday, you could make phone calls on the machines and many people used packet to internet connections and the phone patches as a way to save money on what was then, very expensive services.

When internet became cheap and accessible as with cellphones, a huge amount of people just plain idled out of the hobby. There was quite a wave of people who got their licenses as a matter of utility and convenience.

The other reasons for dues now are internet links, cost of tower space and of course the equipment itself. It's just not as obnoxiously enforced on users as it once was.

[KC9NCF]

Thadster,

I wouldn't depend on repeaters. The owners of most repeaters tend to be stuck - up, narrow minded, bigoted, and cliquish. If they haven't known you for 35 years...chances are very high that you'll either be told to leave the repeater or you'll simply be ignored.

I used 146.520 and other simplex freqs on all of my road trips, which have done A LOT better than any old repeater. Closed repeaters ARE MORE COMMON versus what the other poster said. FCC Rules do not differentiate between an "open" or "closed" repeater system at all. In fact, the rules don't even acknowledge such a practice to be honest.

This has been unsuccessfully argued by those who have been banished from repeaters in that they go to their ALJ hearing and cry......"But, the repeater directory said it was an open repeater" which usually gives the ALJ a good laugh. I would go get a General Class or Extra license and use HF from the car. FM is for the birds!

Edit: In closing, let me tell you that there is no such thing as repeater etiquitte at an official level because each and every repeater is different. The group is different, the mentality is different, rules for repeater operation are different from repeater to repeater, etc. For instance, I was told by a trustee of one repeater to not ever say "KC9NCF, Listening" I was told instead just to give my callsign and drop the system and wait. Different operation for different people! The other things is that repeater groups tend to get easily offended at even the most simple, innocent conversation. I have had an instance or two when a repeater got shut off on me because the group decided they didn't like what was being spoken about...and it wasn't anything that the average person would be sensitive about either! Repeaters are private property and so I'd just as soon advise you to leave them alone and if you MUST use FM...use the simplex freqs. Stay away from repeater inputs and outputs...straight simplex is the way to go!

[gewecke]

I think repeater etiquette varies according to the areas that you frequent. But it's not anything that's written in stone either,as you'll get varying do's and do'nts from different people.
I would stick to the rules you were to taught when you were "elmered" and ignore all the hype and just be yourself. After all,the idea is to enjoy the hobby and have fun. NOT worry about what the old guy two counties over thinks about the way you choose to identify your station!
I have yet to run across a "closed" rptr. according to the ARRL repeater guides,but if I do I won't hesitate to the trustee that they need to communicate this error to the ARRL!
Thad,I wish you luck and tons of qso's on your trip!
73's
N9ZAS

[scottaschultz]

I also agree with using 146.520 while on the road. No, there won't be a lot of activity, but I have had my share of aeronautical mobile contacts while driving.

[n5ims]

I'm sorry that KC9NCF has has such a bad experience with repeaters. My experience has been just the opposite. Most repeaters have been quite friendly to those that are passing through. There have been a few that stated that they were closed, but still welcomed folks just passing through the area. They either pointed me to an open repeater or were happy to let me talk there while I was in the area.

I would monitor 146.520 along with the area's repeaters since that is where many of the other drivers will be until they get in the larger cities.

[KC9NCF]

Originally Posted by n5ims

I'm sorry that KC9NCF has has such a bad experience with repeaters. My experience has been just the opposite. Most repeaters have been quite friendly to those that are passing through. There have been a few that stated that they were closed, but still welcomed folks just passing through the area. They either pointed me to an open repeater or were happy to let me talk there while I was in the area.

I would monitor 146.520 along with the area's repeaters since that is where many of the other drivers will be until they get in the larger cities.

It's not that I've had bad experiences, but it's the lack of any recognizable uniform / universal operating practices when it comes to repeater systems. What is usually acceptable in the majority of places changes each time the wind blows, or is unacceptable in other places. Like I said, stick to simplex if you must use FM or get an HF mobile rig and do HF from the car. I have to disagree that simplex is not an active mode. Each time I've done a road trip, I have found TONS of activity and have been lucky enough to find a few friendly repeater groups whose members have been very helpful in helping me to get around places, etc.

It's just that you'll never find a "closed" simplex frequency unless it's a repeater pair. Then, add to this the fact that the FCC says that repeaters are "private property" and therefore, it is VERY EASY for someone to complain that you "trespassed", thus setting up even the most well versed / well meaning hams for a rather awkward position in having to answer to the FCC. These things happen wayyy too much and I think common sense should tell us all to simply stay away from what has been defined to be "private property" simply to avoid misunderstandings.

[Hoofy]

Here's how I program my radios for on the road trips and then leave them that way.

Start at the low end of the repeater range such as 145.13 and then just go up the scale like this

145.13, 145.15, 145.17. 145.19 and program in the 145. repeater freqs then do the 146 simplex freqs then the 146. repeater freqs and then the 147. repeaters and finally the 147. simplex freqs.

Program in any tones that you know for local repeaters or from a list of where you plan to travel. If one or two of the freqs cause birdies just lock them out or skip them.

Leave a gap once in a while for the odd frequency that you may have missed and you're good to go and you'll always know which way to tune the radio to get to a particular freq.

Or of course you can do it however you want.

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

I wouldn't depend on repeaters. The owners of most repeaters tend to be stuck - up, narrow minded, bigoted, and cliquish. If they haven't known you for 35 years...chances are very high that you'll either be told to leave the repeater or you'll simply be ignored.

Quite a cynical view of the world. But if you take into account that most repeaters are put together by an individual or small group, it stands to reason some people would come away feeling that way. The key to success is finding an acceptable way of joining the group. Transient out of town operators tend to be treated better than locals who haven't made an effort to fit in.

The thing to do is find a group that shares your interests, then join. Then find yourself welcomed into the fold. Standing on the outside telling people that they're cliquish and snobs just doesn't work.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

I used 146.520 and other simplex freqs on all of my road trips, which have done A LOT better than any old repeater.

It's the same thing... There's always a group of guys that hang out on the simplex channels, and they're just as cliquish... only they don't have the range. But if your talking about road trips, see my comments above about transient operators from out of town.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

Closed repeaters ARE MORE COMMON versus what the other poster said.

This is true on bands other than 2 meters. I suspect most 2 meter repeaters are classified as "open". That does not necessarily translate to "friendly".

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

FCC Rules do not differentiate between an "open" or "closed" repeater system at all. In fact, the rules don't even acknowledge such a practice to be honest.

This is patently wrong. Part 97.205 (e) specifically permits closed repeaters... and I quote:

"...Limiting the use of a repeater to only certain user stations is permissible."

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

This has been unsuccessfully argued by those who have been banished from repeaters in that they go to their ALJ hearing and cry......"But, the repeater directory said it was an open repeater" which usually gives the ALJ a good laugh.

The fact is, the repeater licensee is responsible for what his transmitter emits, so the rules MUST have a mechanism for said licensee to control this. Some licensees are ok with being lax about who uses his transmitter. Others are no so ok with it.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

I would go get a General Class or Extra license and use HF from the car. FM is for the birds!

I agree 75%. FM is whatever you chose to make of it.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

Edit: In closing, let me tell you that there is no such thing as repeater etiquitte at an official level because each and every repeater is different. The group is different, the mentality is different, rules for repeater operation are different from repeater to repeater, etc.

Absolutely 100% correct. Which is why people should pick and chose the repeaters they try to operate on a bit more carefully. Just because it's listed as "open" does not mean that you'll fit in.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

For instance, I was told by a trustee of one repeater to not ever say "KC9NCF, Listening" I was told instead just to give my callsign and drop the system and wait. Different operation for different people!

There are some systems out there where it's perfectly acceptable to give your call sign and say "10-8!". Each repeater is it's own community, and each has it's own personality. This is as it should be, really. One size does not fit all. Find the system you like and fit in with, and ignore the rest.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

The other things is that repeater groups tend to get easily offended at even the most simple, innocent conversation. I have had an instance or two when a repeater got shut off on me because the group decided they didn't like what was being spoken about...and it wasn't anything that the average person would be sensitive about either!

I can't say as I've ever had that happen to me, and I've discussed some pretty controversial topics on the air. I suspect it's more that YOU, as an individual, were somewhere that you didn't fit in, and the shutdown was to indicate that you are not welcome there. Oh well. The thing to do there is move on, and continue to search for a place that you DO fit in.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

Repeaters are private property and so I'd just as soon advise you to leave them alone and if you MUST use FM...use the simplex freqs. Stay away from repeater inputs and outputs...straight simplex is the way to go!

You're only part right. They're private property.

Repeaters are a tremendous tool, and it's a tremendous privilege that we're allowed to build them and use them. But like any community, if one goes in trying to buck the flow just because, you're going to eventually be shut out.

Simplex has it's uses, too. But anyone who focuses on any one single aspect of the hobby is short changing themselves. There's more to life than repeaters. There's more to life than FM simplex.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

Then, add to this the fact that the FCC says that repeaters are "private property" and therefore, it is VERY EASY for someone to complain that you "trespassed", thus setting up even the most well versed / well meaning hams for a rather awkward position in having to answer to the FCC. These things happen wayyy too much and I think common sense should tell us all to simply stay away from what has been defined to be "private property" simply to avoid misunderstandings.

Typically, someone happening upon a closed repeater is gently told that it's a private system, and asked to leave. It's only when someone repeatedly shows up after repeated requests to not use the system, would the FCC come into play. The idea of a transient operator passing through a strange town who happens upon a closed repeater, then faces FCC action, is absurd. Please don't propagate that ridiculous idea, because it just simply isn't so.

[WX4JCW]

I travel across the lower 48 and have made alot of contacts across the country, I have never encountered an issue, i tune in a repeater and if it is quiet i generally say "wx4jcw mobile listening" if someone wants to talk to me they will and if i hear nothing, well i don't bother with it and tune to another one. I find most Amateurs hospitable and willing to qso if only quickly. and believe it or not i find the most friendly hams to be near the boston area - now thats scary LOL

[k8tmk]

Although our local main repeater uses PL on 146.820 MHz, we have no problem with any ham using it (legally) while traveling through the area. The PL is just to keep weak interference from distant stations out of the repeater.

[KC9NCF]

I wish to take issue with zz0468 only on one issue.

The amateur spirit in regards to "you don't fit in" scenarios.

I have only been licensed for going on 3 years, and have otherwise been around radio amateurs and amateur radio since I was young. I was always given the picture that there is no such thing as someone who "doesn't fit in" and was always urged to get my license by my Dad and many of his friends and even a few long-time friends who had their licenses before I had mine.

The "You don't fit in" and the claim made about operators not "making an effort to fit in" is clever rhetoric to discriminate. It has happened that I have found the truly friendly groups in my area and the groups who are just a bunch of jerks, to be polite.

I have found friendlier interaction outside of Cook County. I've never figured out why it is that the mentality of the repeater groups in the northwest and northeast Illinois area are so cold, unwelcoming, and intimidating. I cannot tell you how many VERY NEW hams have been severely intimidated away from the hobby BEFORE or just shortly after their calls were even issued! I have spoken to many of them who have personally shown me evidence that they were mistreated for not either being a sworn member of a public safety department, not being some veteran electronics engineer, not being "connected enough", or not being a relative of any of the above.

These amateurs have since turned their licenses in and pursued something else.

Bottom line? Either the amateur service participants need to learn to accept people and get to know them or we will continue as a community to have the problems that existed before any of us "new problem making idiots". This "you don't fit in" BS is a way for others to not accept people for who they are and is damaging to our hobby and service in a long list of ways. The number one problem is: public relations. Number 2 is: it creates a bad public image and creates ethical problems.

For the record, if you want a TRULY friendly, helpful, welcoming, group of folks....you'll find them at the North Shore Radio Club, WAFAR, MAC, FRRL, W9ANL, Antioch, Nora, Stars, York RC, Sercomm, Nipsars, and anywhere else outside of the Chicago metro area and outside of Cook County. Other than these groups named, my own experience has been that you will not find a group that will elmer anyone and you will not find a group who will take the time to get to know you if you aren't already well known and if you don't already have some sort of "star appeal". But, such is the Chicago and Cook county way.

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

I have only been licensed for going on 3 years, and have otherwise been around radio amateurs and amateur radio since I was young. I was always given the picture that there is no such thing as someone who "doesn't fit in" and was always urged to get my license by my Dad and many of his friends and even a few long-time friends who had their licenses before I had mine.

I've been licensed for close to 35 years and, although I wasn't "taught" anything about fitting in, have certainly observed it. Where a lot of hams go wrong is making the assumption that just because they're licensed, they automatically "fit in" with any other amateur group. It's simply not the case. Don't forget, before anything else, hams are humans, and humans like to congregate among their own.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

The "You don't fit in" and the claim made about operators not "making an effort to fit in" is clever rhetoric to discriminate. It has happened that I have found the truly friendly groups in my area and the groups who are just a bunch of jerks, to be polite.

Call it what you will... Personally, I think "discrimination" is a bit harsh. But maybe if you look at it another way. Consider photography as an analogy. Suppose there are several photography clubs in your town, and you have a general interest in 35 mm photography. If you bring your 35 mm camera to the club that specializes in large format commercial photography, you're going to be looked at with some disdain. You're all photographers, but you don't fit in with that particular crowd. Discrimination?

Repeater groups can be very tight knit communities with very specialised interests that draw them together. I'm sure they don't see themselves as jerks. More than likely, they view you as someone who just get it with regard to their particular interest.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

I have found friendlier interaction outside of Cook County. I've never figured out why it is that the mentality of the repeater groups in the northwest and northeast Illinois area are so cold, unwelcoming, and intimidating. I cannot tell you how many VERY NEW hams have been severely intimidated away from the hobby BEFORE or just shortly after their calls were even issued! I have spoken to many of them who have personally shown me evidence that they were mistreated for not either being a sworn member of a public safety department, not being some veteran electronics engineer, not being "connected enough", or not being a relative of any of the above.

These amateurs have since turned their licenses in and pursued something else.

Well, I live in California, where there are a LOT of hams, and they're not noted for being particularly friendly. I can see where some feel that they're getting chased away from certain repeaters, but I learned early on just how specialized those particular communities can be. And then I realized that they're plenty friendly enough when you find the right group of people.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

Bottom line? Either the amateur service participants need to learn to accept people and get to know them or we will continue as a community to have the problems that existed before any of us "new problem making idiots". This "you don't fit in" BS is a way for others to not accept people for who they are and is damaging to our hobby and service in a long list of ways.

It's only damaging if you refuse to understand and accept human nature as it is. And the bottom line is, some groups simply don't want daily on-the-air interactions with everyone who happens to come by. Just let 'em be, and drive through. There ARE repeater groups out there that think someone like you is PERFECT for them, and they'll welcome you with open arms.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

The number one problem is: public relations. Number 2 is: it creates a bad public image and creates ethical problems.

Where's the ethical problem? A repeater group is formed by, say, a group of RF engineers who all work together, their families play together, and they've known each other for a long time. Their employer gives them site space on the condition that the repeater be used by employees and family of the company only. Then some new ham stumbles upon the group and wants to use the repeater, but he doesn't fit in with that specialized group. Is that unethical to ask him to leave? I don't think so.

Nothing personal, but I've read your posts here and elsewhere, under your current call, and your old call. And you strike me as a bit of a whiner. Maybe if you found something that's actually interesting to talk about, and stop complaining about how snobbish repeater owners are, you'd be more accepted by the communities that you seem intent on complaining about.

Based on your comments here alone, you'd never get invited to any repeater I own, and I consider myself to be VERY friendly toward newcomers.

[KC9NCF]

Originally Posted by zz0468

I've been licensed for close to 35 years and, although I wasn't "taught" anything about fitting in, have certainly observed it. Where a lot of hams go wrong is making the assumption that just because they're licensed, they automatically "fit in" with any other amateur group. It's simply not the case. Don't forget, before anything else, hams are humans, and humans like to congregate among their own.



Call it what you will... Personally, I think "discrimination" is a bit harsh. But maybe if you look at it another way. Consider photography as an analogy. Suppose there are several photography clubs in your town, and you have a general interest in 35 mm photography. If you bring your 35 mm camera to the club that specializes in large format commercial photography, you're going to be looked at with some disdain. You're all photographers, but you don't fit in with that particular crowd. Discrimination?

Repeater groups can be very tight knit communities with very specialised interests that draw them together. I'm sure they don't see themselves as jerks. More than likely, they view you as someone who just get it with regard to their particular interest.



Well, I live in California, where there are a LOT of hams, and they're not noted for being particularly friendly. I can see where some feel that they're getting chased away from certain repeaters, but I learned early on just how specialized those particular communities can be. And then I realized that they're plenty friendly enough when you find the right group of people.



It's only damaging if you refuse to understand and accept human nature as it is. And the bottom line is, some groups simply don't want daily on-the-air interactions with everyone who happens to come by. Just let 'em be, and drive through. There ARE repeater groups out there that think someone like you is PERFECT for them, and they'll welcome you with open arms.



Where's the ethical problem? A repeater group is formed by, say, a group of RF engineers who all work together, their families play together, and they've known each other for a long time. Their employer gives them site space on the condition that the repeater be used by employees and family of the company only. Then some new ham stumbles upon the group and wants to use the repeater, but he doesn't fit in with that specialized group. Is that unethical to ask him to leave? I don't think so.

Nothing personal, but I've read your posts here and elsewhere, under your current call, and your old call. And you strike me as a bit of a whiner. Maybe if you found something that's actually interesting to talk about, and stop complaining about how snobbish repeater owners are, you'd be more accepted by the communities that you seem intent on complaining about.

Based on your comments here alone, you'd never get invited to any repeater I own, and I consider myself to be VERY friendly toward newcomers.

My whole point, as long as I made it is this: why can't the amateur community accept their fellow amateur and allow them to be themselves? No one should be "required" to "fit in" by being anything less than themselves. You brought up a good topic of a group having specific interest in something...what about those of us who have an interest in everything? Shouldn't these "specialized" groups allow people into the group who want to learn something, versus telling them to go away because they "don't fit in"? without both parties getting to first know each other beyond all of 30 seconds?

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

My whole point, as long as I made it is this: why can't the amateur community accept their fellow amateur and allow them to be themselves?

Maybe they DO accept all their fellow amateurs as they are. That doesn't mean they have to associate with them. Sometimes acceptance goes so far as saying "you do your thing, and I'll do mine". And that's as far as it needs to go.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

No one should be "required" to "fit in" by being anything less than themselves.

Boy, do you have a lot to learn about human nature. Sure, be yourself. But if being yourself means I have to let you in to all my activities and interests just because you say so, I'm going to find something else to do. While no one should be "forced" to fit in, no one should be "forced" to let you in, if that's not what they want to do.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

You brought up a good topic of a group having specific interest in something...what about those of us who have an interest in everything?

Sometimes a mere interest isn't enough. Say I'm interested in brain surgery. Does that mean I should be let in the operating room to tinker with someone's brain? Locked in a room full of brain surgeons, I wouldn't have the slightest thing of interest to say to those people, even if what they say is interesting to me. I would bore them to tears talking about radios, even as I was fascinated by their talk about brain surgery.

Sometimes people just want to associate with others that are actually 'peers' on some level. And THEY want to define just what that is. There's nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

Shouldn't these "specialized" groups allow people into the group who want to learn something, versus telling them to go away because they "don't fit in"? without both parties getting to first know each other beyond all of 30 seconds?

No. They shouldn't have to let everyone into the group if they don't want to. Again, you seem to be lacking some basic understanding of human nature. Hams are just an average cross section of humanity in general, with a common theme of an interest in radio. That's where the commonality ends.

Not all specialized groups are into teaching their particular specialty. Not all specialties can be taught. If the association exists because of a common employer, for example, no amount of beating on their door is going to let you in, unless you hapen to also be an employee of their sponsoring organization.

There are a lot of organizations that operate like a door that opens outward. If you step back, and let someone from the inside open the door, eventually you can come in. If you stand on the outside banging the door and pushing it in, you're only holding it closed tighter.

Just accept the fact that not everyone wants to associate with everyone else, and they need a place to go to get away from the masses. it's human nature, and there's nothing wrong with it until someone like you tries to force the issue. Let it go. Find a place where you fit, and ignore the places you don't.

[scottaschultz]

Originally Posted by KC9NCF

My whole point, as long as I made it is this: why can't the amateur community accept their fellow amateur and allow them to be themselves? No one should be "required" to "fit in" by being anything less than themselves. You brought up a good topic of a group having specific interest in something...what about those of us who have an interest in everything? Shouldn't these "specialized" groups allow people into the group who want to learn something, versus telling them to go away because they "don't fit in"? without both parties getting to first know each other beyond all of 30 seconds?

No one is telling you not to be yourself, but as has been pointed out, there is nothing that says we MUST accept YOU (or anyone else for that matter)! You are simply not going to "fit in" to every group you want to join. That's just life. Get over it. I even tried looking you up on QRZ and for some reason, either by your choice or theirs, your information does not appear. As far as I know the only thing we share in common is that we appear in the same FCC database.

[newsphotog]

So... anyways...

When I am traveling, I keep my D710 on APRS on band A and usually 146.82 on band B. Or a local repeater on band B and 146.82 on my ID-800. I have had mixed success with simplex, but that's probably only because my antennas aren't the best. One time I just decided to throw my call out on 146.82 and much to my amazement someone actually came back to me! Turns out, the ham that answered my call had been monitoring 146.52 for months and months and months (in a town where the interstate runs through) and this was the first time he heard any activity on it. It was the first simplex contact for both of us!

A handy site to find repeaters along your route is K5EHX Amateur Radio Repeater Mapping -- you can punch in your "to" and "from" locations like Google and it will return the listings for all of the repeaters you will be in range of. Very slick.

Sometimes, yes, I do feel like people ignore me when I put my call out on repeaters that are along my travel routes, away from home. Sometimes nobody comes back, sometimes someone will come back and will be tickled to death to talk to you and make your drive a little shorter. One time I talked to a ham in Missouri on a repeater and ended up giving me a bunch of recommended repeater frequencies for my destination and was so helpful and nice.

If someone yells at you for something that you didn't do wrong or is generally just rude, just spin the dial. If they are rude to you, you don't need to hang out with those guys.