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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:44 AM
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If the ARES member was carrying a firearm against the rules of ARES, and they used it in legal self defense and killed an attacker, the scum bag lawyers for the dead person will go after ARES in addition to the person who fired the gun. ARES and other groups prohibit firearms due to this extreme liability.

If anyone uses a firearm in self defense you can almost guarantee there will be a lawsuit from the person that got shot or their surviving family. You can be completely cleared by the police and still face probably $25k in legal fees because that's what lawyers do.

The AmRRON group seems to be a bunch of preppers waiting for a signal that the end is coming so they can break out all their stuff and use it.
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Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
Here's a scenario to consider... You have ARES volunteers supporting a bicycle ride. The ride course goes through somewhat remote and hilly areas where cellphone coverage is spotty. In some of these areas, the local residents are less than thrilled about 5,000 bicyclists using their roads. The ARES volunteers use their own vehicles to patrol the course, assist the riders, and, of course, communicate as required.

One of these ARES volunteers encounters a bicyclist who has a flat tire. The bicyclist has a spare tube and the ARES volunteer has a tire pump. The ARES volunteer stops his vehicle on the side of the road to loan the pump. While repairs are underway, a local resident comes out of his house carrying a shotgun and makes threats towards the bicyclist and the ARES volunteer. Both the bicyclist and the ARES volunteer feel that they are subject to imminent bodily harm. There isn't a sworn law enforcement officer for miles.

Who is responsible for site security in this instance?

If an amateur radio operator chooses to volunteer with ARES and if that ARO is otherwise legally able to carry a firearm, is the ARRL justified in denying the ARES volunteer's ability to defend his or her self in a scenario like what I described? Of course, the ARRL is justified in making policy which protects their liability. But, their policy might put the ARES volunteer in a difficult situation.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:54 AM
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I agree with the scenario that MCore25 posted above. Those hogs can and will tear a person up pretty badly.
What I am against is telling the whole world that you're carrying. If the situation occures that a firearm has to be used, that is acceptable.
I think it's best to keep it a secret until the time comes where it must be pulled or fired.

prcguy made an important post about possible law suits.
On youtube, there's a vid about a legal CWC who shot and killed a young man in the course of robbing a store. The dead man's family SUED the man who killed the robber. I don't know what the outcome of the court actions are/were, but rest assured, that man with the legal CWC had a whopping legal bill, win or loss.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by prcguy View Post
If the ARES member was carrying a firearm against the rules of ARES, and they used it in legal self defense and killed an attacker, the scum bag lawyers for the dead person will go after ARES in addition to the person who fired the gun. ARES and other groups prohibit firearms due to this extreme liability.
Absolutely. The ARRL has deeper pockets than most ARES volunteers. Even if the ARES volunteer is carrying some form of legal defense insurance (various organizations will insure an individual against the legal fees resulting from a use of deadly force incident), the "victim's" attorneys will most certainly go after the ARRL. Which is kinda the point of this line of thinking.

I agree that withdrawal is an option. Way too many gun owners believe that their weapon is the only solution to a bad situation. Simply walking away is almost always the best answer. Unless, of course, those feral hogs can run faster than I can.

There is much more to protecting oneself against bodily harm than just carrying a firearm.
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
Here's a scenario to consider...
I think the first rule is "Don't put yourself or anyone else in that position". Any group that would set up a bike race through an area like that and not either change the route, or come up with some other plan is being pretty negligent. It shouldn't rely on an amateur radio operator with a air pump and a fire arm to make this work.

There's always going to be a scenario where someone will feel threatened. A wise man would walk away and not put themselves into a position like this.

If there is no suitable law enforcement to handle this sort of scenario, then again, bad planning.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MCore25 View Post
I do see arguments for both sides though but I would agree that if someone is legally allowed to carry firearms, then that is their call. I see the liability issue on the organizational standpoint. There are two kinds of civilian who carries a firearm...the one who wants to be the hero and the one who believes its a last choice in preservation of life/limb.
This I agree with.
A CCW permit on it's own doesn't automatically make someone trustworthy. Neither does having an amateur radio license. Having both together doesn't change that.

Some people will do dumb things when they think they have power over someone else. It doesn't always end well.

I don't have an issue with CCW either. What I have an issue with is the people that think it puts them in a position of authority or power over others. In my mind, it's an extension of the "whacker" mentality. I have a radio/flashy lights/stickers/badge/uniform, so that puts me in charge.
My opinion: CCW permits need to be harder to get, and these sorts of conversations reinforce that. Someone thinking they can solve an issue quickly yet their only tool is a fire arm scares me. There's other resolutions that should be attempted before killing someone else. I don't trust average Joe citizen to make that decision on the fly.

Again, my own personal opinion, flawed as it may be.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mmckenna View Post
I have a radio/flashy lights/stickers/badge/uniform, so that puts me in charge.
The first thing I thought of when I read that sentence was that we need a point scale to determine the level of, well, at the risk of being offensive, whackerness.

Radio -- 0 points because you wouldn't be an ARES/RACES/etc. volunteer if you didn't have a radio
More than one radio -- 1 point for each radio in excess of one radio
Scanner in addition to first radio -- 2 points
Stickers -- 1 point for one ARES sticker on the vehicle
Additional stickers -- 2 points for any sticker on the vehicle that says "emergency communication", "emcomm", etc.
Reflective vest -- 2 points
Flashy lights -- 3 points
Uniform -- 3 points
Fake amateur radio operator badge -- 5 points
Gun -- 10 points

What total number of points makes you a, well, at the risk of being offensive, whacker?

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Originally Posted by mmckenna View Post
I don't trust average Joe citizen to make that decision on the fly.
Given the number of police officers who have been involved in unjustified shootings recently, I'm not sure how much I trust the police.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
The first thing I thought of when I read that sentence was that we need a point scale to determine the level of, well, at the risk of being offensive, whackerness.

Radio -- 0 points because you wouldn't be an ARES/RACES/etc. volunteer if you didn't have a radio
More than one radio -- 1 point for each radio in excess of one radio
Scanner in addition to first radio -- 2 points
Stickers -- 1 point for one ARES sticker on the vehicle
Additional stickers -- 2 points for any sticker on the vehicle that says "emergency communication", "emcomm", etc.
Reflective vest -- 2 points
Flashy lights -- 3 points
Uniform -- 3 points
Fake amateur radio operator badge -- 5 points
Gun -- 10 points

What total number of points makes you a, well, at the risk of being offensive, whacker?
My opinion?

3.5.

And I like the idea of a "whacker scale". I think that could work well.

Maybe adding a qualifier for any piece of equipment that the holder claims is "for safety". That often covers way too many lights, equipment they are not properly trained to use, reflective clothing, unnecessary warning signs. etc.


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Given the number of police officers who have been involved in unjustified shootings recently, I'm not sure how much I trust the police.
This I agree with. Professions don't necessarily make someone trustworthy. Be it police, fire, EMS, doctor, lawyer (do I even need to add that?) or politician. Take each person as a unique individual and not pigeon hole people based on career/political leanings.
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 4:00 PM
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That often covers way too many lights, equipment they are not properly trained to use, reflective clothing, unnecessary warning signs. etc.
Reflective clothing?? How much training does one need to be certified to wear reflective clothing and does this apply to bicyclists and runners?
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
The first thing I thought of when I read that sentence was that we need a point scale to determine the level of, well, at the risk of being offensive, whackerness.

Radio -- 0 points because you wouldn't be an ARES/RACES/etc. volunteer if you didn't have a radio
More than one radio -- 1 point for each radio in excess of one radio
Scanner in addition to first radio -- 2 points
Stickers -- 1 point for one ARES sticker on the vehicle
Additional stickers -- 2 points for any sticker on the vehicle that says "emergency communication", "emcomm", etc.
Reflective vest -- 2 points
Flashy lights -- 3 points
Uniform -- 3 points
Fake amateur radio operator badge -- 5 points
Gun -- 10 points

What total number of points makes you a, well, at the risk of being offensive, whacker?


Given the number of police officers who have been involved in unjustified shootings recently, I'm not sure how much I trust the police.
I'm probably going to regret stepping in to this conversation but here goes:

The telltale whacker behavior is really spelled out in the majority of your list. He's trying to impress everyone with the flashy toys and gear and making sure everyone knows he has it. If he has a CCW, very few if any should know he is carrying. If it's something he's bringing up all the time then 10 points might not be high enough.

I've got nothing against CCWs. In fact statistically, they're involved in fewer wrongful shootings than are LEOs and are generally pretty "law abiding". A sidearm should be used as a last resort. Nothing wrong with losing face and living another day if at all possible. Granted, that isn't always and option.

All that being said, though I understand a groups desire to limit its liability, I'm not one to join an organization that wants me to check my constitutional rights at the door. What others should I give up? Right to free speech? Freedom from illegal search and seizure? Cruel and unusual punishment?


Edit: Oh and one thing. "Fake" amateur radio operators badge? I didn't know there was such a thing, real or fake.
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 4:09 PM
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Reflective clothing?? How much training does one need to be certified to wear reflective clothing and does this apply to bicyclists and runners?
No, it applies to amateur radio operators doing amateur radio hobby type stuff.

And that could certainly fit into the margin of error on the 3.5 score.
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bharvey2 View Post
Edit: Oh and one thing. "Fake" amateur radio operators badge? I didn't know there was such a thing, real or fake.
Google is your friend:

https://maxarmory.com/collections/cu...nt=26122078721

I have seen similar ham radio badges in person. No, I do not own one.
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 4:35 PM
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My opinion?

3.5.
I'm not gonna pick nits. I will say that if I stop on a public road to assist a bicyclist during one of the bike rides I volunteer for, I would like to be as visible as possible to oncoming traffic. That may make me lean towards wearing a reflective vest.

Maybe the flashy lights points should be broken down into categories of tastefully installed (hideaway) amber or white flashy lights, headlight wig-wags, full light bar flashy lights, and red flashy lights.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 4:35 PM
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No, it applies to amateur radio operators doing amateur radio hobby type stuff.

And that could certainly fit into the margin of error on the 3.5 score.
Well, I gotta tell you. When the Georgia Emergency Management Agency holds a state-wide communications exercise (once or twice a year) all participants are required to wear yellow reflective vests. And, whether or not they're used in real life situations, a certain number of ham radio operators are always invited.

That said, I definitely see your point, however. I think it's hobby because they're not required to attend.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
Google is your friend:

https://maxarmory.com/collections/cu...nt=26122078721

I have seen similar ham radio badges in person. No, I do not own one.
Oh, I'm not arguing that they don't exist. Just didn't know that they did. I will claim that I feel ashamed that they do.

My wife bought me a shirt a while back that says: "My wife lets me play ham radio" just to bust my chops. Maybe I should get one of those badges. :-)
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Old 07-17-2017, 4:40 PM
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No, it applies to amateur radio operators doing amateur radio hobby type stuff.

And that could certainly fit into the margin of error on the 3.5 score.
See I keep a reflective vest in my truck (level 2) but it generally stays stuffed inside of a hardhat, tucked under the back seat. I also have a light bar under that back seat. Only time it gets used though is when customer, OSHA, or MSHA safety policies dictate it.
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 5:40 PM
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I'm not gonna pick nits. I will say that if I stop on a public road to assist a bicyclist during one of the bike rides I volunteer for, I would like to be as visible as possible to oncoming traffic. That may make me lean towards wearing a reflective vest.
And that would be reasonable.
However, having one with your call sign across the back, "emcomm" in big letters, "emergency" anything, logos, etc. would be verging into whacker territory.

I occasionally have to wear one at work, but it's in appropriate situations:
Construction sites where they are required as part of PPE.
Working in the roadway in a manhole, sub-box, etc., directing traffic when we have a lane closed, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
Maybe the flashy lights points should be broken down into categories of tastefully installed (hideaway) amber or white flashy lights, headlight wig-wags, full light bar flashy lights, and red flashy lights.
I think anything outside what is allowed by the local vehicle code for the area you are in is an indication. Having worked in underground cable construction in my early years, as well as occasional use at work where I've needed ambers has taught me that there's a lot more to being safe than putting lights on a vehicle.

Overly aggressive lighting can become a distraction for other drivers. I've found that four way flashers are tasteful and usually not overly distracting, plus they mean vehicle code.

Usually it's best to get the heck out of the traffic lanes. Never understood why amateurs think they need emergency vehicle lighting.

And this all falls under my comment above about anything that gets justified by the users as "for safety!". Nothing wrong with being safe, just don't be annoying and follow the laws regarding warning lights. Kind of sucks when you get stuck behind some whacker with lighting level = stupid going full bore. I was in the mountains in a heavy snow, tire chains required, etc. Some guy got to play with his new strobes on his truck. Ended up confusing the hell out of everyone else. Way too bright, blinding drivers, adding to confusion. I'm sure he though he was being "safe".
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Old 07-17-2017, 5:46 PM
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Well, I gotta tell you. When the Georgia Emergency Management Agency holds a state-wide communications exercise (once or twice a year) all participants are required to wear yellow reflective vests. And, whether or not they're used in real life situations, a certain number of ham radio operators are always invited.

That said, I definitely see your point, however. I think it's hobby because they're not required to attend.
And, that's the EMA rules. Not individual or club amateur radio operators.

I'm all for safety, but again, doing it correctly and not "overdoing" it for the look is best.

As I said above, I do occasionally have to wear them at work. I don't wear it any other time, and it doesn't have call signs, "emcomm", or other confusing stuff written all over it as a way to draw attention to how important someone is, or think they are.
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Old 07-17-2017, 5:48 PM
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See I keep a reflective vest in my truck (level 2) but it generally stays stuffed inside of a hardhat, tucked under the back seat. I also have a light bar under that back seat. Only time it gets used though is when customer, OSHA, or MSHA safety policies dictate it.
Exactly what I do at work. It's stuffed inside my hard hat in the tool box. Along with the amber strobe that I never use. Only time that has ever come out was when we had to block a road to access a manhole. Then it was sort of pointless since traffic was backed up and we had 3 or 4 trucks in the way..
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Old 07-18-2017, 1:28 AM
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The Best stickers or magnetic signs I ever bought were the ARRL Emergency Radio stickers. I have only used them once but at Katrina, they allowed me though many road blocks. National Guard just waved us though rather than stopping to see what we were doing or who we were.. They were very useful, State Highway PATROL , FROM MANY states , they too just waved us through at check points. The other thing was a shirt, or T-Shirt that had my Radio Clubs initials on the back. Big block letters, as there were FEMA SHIRTS AROUND, FBI, so and so state. People saw the shirts, never knew who we were, but we must be officials. If you dress the part, people don't ask questions. So we had mag signs, 1 radio, and a T-Shirt. Oh the car had a scanner. Did have red, white, blue lights. Only operated a couple of times, as when we got on the interstate driving medical supplies from Biloxi to Slidel when Slidel was having an emergency and needed supplies.. At the base IO was at, there was a big room, full of medical suppies, and I took supplies to aid stations. Various HP units saw me but never raised any concerns. This whole deal was a unique situation. The first few weeks, it was pretty loose. Never carried a gun because the ARRL requested we don't. During the day, there was no need to but after dark, things got interesting. Gun shots , breaking and entering, trespassing were a nightly thing. I was at Yankee Stadium, where they started locking the gates and fences at night. Car was parked about 10 feet away but you had to walk about 100 feet to go through a gate that had a guard present.. It was weeks before electricity came back and at night, it gets very dark. No street lights, House lights. Nothing but a flashlight or two. If as a ham, the opportunity comes that you can take part in an event like Katrina, do it if you can. Its like field day for real.
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Old 07-18-2017, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by krokus View Post
Because the ARES activation is for communications support, and site security is someone else's task. Everyone involved is a part of the machine, and counting on the others to do their parts.

If nothing else, it is their organization, so it is their rules. Participation is voluntary.

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The above post is the best answer I have read in this thread so far.

ARES=Communications, because that is what expertise ARES personnel bring to the table and are trained to do.

Law Enforcement=Site Security/Public Safety, because that is what expertise LE personnel bring to the table and are trained to do.

As was stated, ARES participation is voluntary, so if your group is participating in events that put you in unsafe situations that may endanger your life, I suggest you stop volunteering with that group or at the very least bring those situations to the attention of the proper officials (EC, etc..) and voice your concerns.
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