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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2018, 7:16 PM
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How does something like this get passed the manufacture development and testing?
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Old 06-24-2018, 4:35 AM
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Default Will Continue to Hope

Quote:
Originally Posted by prcguy View Post
Thanks for all the testing and posting of these unfortunate problems. I had $1k set aside for a DV10 and was first waiting for some feedback and now I have enough information to buy something else instead.

There is no excuse for releasing a product that does not meet specifications and doesn't completely delight the customer.
I am lucky in that I have a Whistler H/H Scanner already. Nowhere near the specs of the DV10 in terms of many things I wanted, but has a few that the AOR model does not. I also of course have an AR-DV1, so I will not need to buy another Radio, and can afford to put the refunded money away, and keep it until hopefully I can get a DV10 (MKII) at some time in the future.

I too find it hard to understand how the DV10 passed its testing phase to a point where AOR considered it ready for sale, even assuming a philosophy of letting the Customer tell us anything wrong with the firmware, and we 'may' correct it later.

I sympathise wth AOR about the firmware. The programming is complex, and as I know from writing eSPYonARD it is not just a question of clicking one button and getting the correct result, there are lots of other factors that can interfere. Which function was running before? Which one runs afterwards? What if someone clicks an unexpected combination of buttons, and trying to determine the results of that original single click when so many other things may be going on in the background, any one of which might cause a problem. Testing has always taken up most of my time before any update release.

When the first DV10 'problem' posts started to roll in, I was not unduly alarmed, and even wondered about the motives/personality of some of the people who posted them. The years of experience with the AR-DV1 had lulled me into a train of thought which said 'just a firmware fix'.

However once the frequency drift issue was discovered, with the potential serious effects on Digital reception, and to a lesser extent the intermittent failing of the 2.6 Side Band filter I began to believe that these was never going to be a simple firmware fix, and increasingly looked as if there were hardware issues that would demand a new design.

Even the advertised +/- 5 PPM frequency figure is unlikely to be good enough when decoding Digital signals. OK at HF perhaps, but not once UHF or even VHF frequencies are concerned. DV10 tests by others indicate that the PPM figure is even higher in reality, and quite a few people are reporting the drift with temperature means signals cannot be found on the frequency shown on the Radio, without re-tuning up or down.The DV1 PPM figure is +/- 2.5. Other Radios and even Dongles say theirs is much, much lower.

It is such a great shame. I love the AR-DV1, and what in effect was a hand held version of it was so appealing. I am sorry for the Customers, Dealers and dare I say it, AOR themselves. Somewhere in the chain of development/testing AOR were badly let down this time, although they may never publicly admit it.

Most of all, selfishly, I am sorry for me (SIGH). Irrespective of the prospect and excitement of producing a program to control the DV10, I wanted one all of my own, to play with, lol.

The AR-DV1 was and is a significant achievement. I never expected the DV10 to be totally equal to the DV1 in all performance respects, on the grounds of the restrictions of size alone, All things considered the AR-DV10 should have been a winner, leaving everyone down the chain very happy, from AOR to the End User / Customer.

If AOR take note, 'bite the bullet' and get the Radio 'right', it could still be a winner for them, even if they have to spend more money on amended hardware, and if seems necessary, recalling/replacing the first production run. I hope they do the 'right thing'.

Last edited by marlbrook; 06-24-2018 at 4:47 AM..
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2018, 5:25 AM
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Doesn't it have automatic frequency control AFC? My AR8200 can adapt itself to a transmissions frequency up to more than a 10KHz offset. It doesn't work during scanning but while stationary it follows any signal strong enough, not close to the squelch level but more or less noise free.

PPM are parts of a million and Mega means million so +/-5PPM at 1MHz are a +/-5Hz tolerance and at 100MHz 500Hz and at 500MHz 2,5KHz. In my country professional radios are allowed to drift 2,5KHz and basestations 1,5KHz and at 500MHz that is 5PPM and 2PPM.

Uniden and Whistler never state any frequency tolerancies but Icom does and their portable scanners like R2 and RX7 have +/-6PPM. My Icom PCR2500 have +/-3PPM. There are always compromises and shortcuts being made in a portable receiver compared to a mobile/base version and crystal stability, jitter and overall RF quality will always take a hit when you try and cram everything in a small package.

As the DV10 frequency drift seems to be pretty close to what are guaranteed I wouldn't expect AOR to offer any free "send it in and get it fixed" solution as Uniden do. At best they could offer a normal service repair at their standard service fee, if they can work out a solution.

As a comparison the Icom PCR2500 I have, and also noted from other users, have a terrible PLL phase jitter from the main receiver that makes fully saturated signals sound as if they where weak with a lot of background noise. One user discovered that two capacitors with totally different values where swapped on the circuit board. The roll of components that the smd place setter machine use at the factory must have been loaded with the incorrect components. Icom never acknowledge it and doesn't offer any fix.
My experiance is that japan companies are hard to deal with with. You rarely get any response and if you do the answer are often not related to the question as if they do not understand english.

/Ubbe
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2018, 6:57 AM
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Default PPM

In some ways the PPM is a bit of a 'red herring'.

The bottom line is people are reporting that after between 10 minutes to an hour, the DV10 has drifted off frequency enough that signals on that frequency can no longer be received, unless the Radio is actually re-tuned. Those that also have the DV1 and have compared it do not have this happen.

That is the 'key' problem. Obviously if one tunes to, or enters a frequency into memory, or even searches, one naturally expects to be assured that the Receiver finds it, when active, where it is shown to be on the screen, and the signal is captured, whether Analogue or Digital within any warm up period.

I realise, as do others I am sure, that the DV1 is likely to be much less able of dissipating heat just because of its physical size, although other makes of Hand Held seem to cope.

As I mentioned before, too much drift is likely to be particularly 'deadly' for all but the strongest Digital signals, as without constant comparison with a Radio that is working as it should be, the Channel just appears to be 'quiet', with no possible indication the desired frequency is in fact active.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2018, 9:20 AM
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Default DV10 Test Results

CALIBRATED TEST RESULTS RE. AR-DV10 'DRIFT'

EQUIPMENT
1. Digital Signal Generator
2. AR-DV1
3. AR-DV10

CONTROL ENVIRONMENT - AR-DV1 TEST (to verify the Signal Generator)

The Signal Generator was set to 501.0000 MHz, with an audio Tone output of around 900hz

Connected directly to the AR-DV1, with the following settings:-
1. Radio Frequency shown 501.0000 MHz
2. Mode FM (best because Digital signals are FM based)
3. IFBW 6 kHz
4. AR-DV1 and Signal Generator powered by the same stabilised supply
5. Backlight ON

The Generator puts out a very low RF signal, just S3 on the DV1 Receiver, so no overload or abnormality due to too strong a signal.

The DV1 test was run for 2 hours.

This was in fact to test the Signal Generator's stability.

Squelch was set 'just to open'. The 970hz tone gave clean audio, and the signal opened the squelch. Tuning 4kHz above or below the frequency resulted in the signal being lost, with the squelch set as above, or at '0'.

RESULTS
After 2 hours, the signal's reception on the AR-DV1 remained rock solid. No drift apparent at all.

Irrespective of what this says about the AR-DV1, it shows the
Signal Generator can be trusted, which is of course very important.

CONTROL ENVIRONMENT - AR-DV10 TEST
The Signal Generator was set to 501.0000 MHz, with a Tone output of 970hz

Connected to the AR-DV10, with the following settings:-
1. Radio Frequency shown 501.0000 MHz
2. Mode FM
3. IFBW 6 kHz
4. AR-DV10 and Signal Generator powered by the same stabilised supply
5. Backlight ON

DV10 RESULTS
Each test conducted with Radio lying flat - NOT in hand - and then being held

1. On Power Up
Radio lying flat - NOT in hand - THEN being held

'S' Meter showing midpoint on Radio

***On frequency - receiving signal with clean audio Tone
---------------------
2. After 10 minutes
Signal drifted - Tone crackling on DV10's displayed frequency of 501.0000 MHz

NOTE with the Tone output already breaking up, a Digital signal will begin giving errors, and probably will not be decoded, so the Radio will remain inert.

May not be apparent on strong signals with this degree of drift.

***Radio had to be retuned to 501.002 MHz to receive correctly
---------------------
3. After 30 minutes
Signal drift increased - interestingly no crackling on Tone now at 501.0000 MHz, but Tone strength / clarity has deteriorated on shown Frequency, 501.0000 MHz

***Radio had to be retuned to 501.003 MHz to receive maximum signal and clearest Tone.
---------------------
4. After 60 minutes
Almost stabilised - However Tone crackling again at 501.0000 MHz, so will most probably not decode a Digital signal on displayed frequency.

***501.003 MHz still received best signal and clearest Tone.
---------------------
5. After 120 minutes
Almost stabilised - However Tone crackling at 501.0000 MHz, so will most probably not decode a Digital signal on displayed frequency.

***501.003 MHz still received best signal and clearest Tone.
---------------------

NOTE
At the end of the DV10 test the Signal Generator was re-connected to the AR-DV1, which had remained powered up throughout.

DV1 showed rock solid RF signal and Tone on 501.0000 MHz

Final proof that the Signal Generator had not drifted.

Just to as thorough as I could, I cooled the DV10 down using an Air Conditioner, and repeated the test at 501.0000 MHz.

1. Rock solid on displayed frequency and clean Audio Tone at power up
2. Same results as before - needs re-tuning to 501.002 Mhz after 10 minutes
3. Same result after 20 minutes - - needs re-tuning to 501.003 Mhz

CONCLUSION
Without doubt my tests coincide with Andy Smith's when he used his test equipment, and corroborate others who have reported back on the DV10's frequency drift, and consequent signal loss / deterioration.

Narrow bandwidth Digital Signals of low to medium received strength are highly likely to be subject to adverse or no decoding.

Analogue signals will be received, but not 'at their best' without re-tuning.

Each of you must decide if you find this acceptable. I certainly do not. It remains to be seen if AOR try a 'fix' using firmware, but at best this will be a 'fudged attempt'. This demands a hardware re-design.

Of course this may be just happening to some of the first batch, but there are too many reports to make this acceptable.

Remember drift is most likely to rise in proportion to the chosen Frequency.

-----------------

Some people may think I just received an email from AOR Japan warning me off about publishing anything adverse on the Net about the DV10, removing their mention of eSPYonARD for the AR-DV1 in their 'Other Software' Section, and warning me that it is illegal to publish anything about their email. You may of course think that, I could not possibly comment.

"Shoot the messenger" syndrome?

Last edited by marlbrook; 06-26-2018 at 10:21 AM..
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2018, 3:32 PM
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Hello,

Interesting that Universal Radio put a warning about returns for the DV-10 and not for the DV-1.
"NOTE: The AR-DV10 is not eligible for return or refund under any circumstances. Defective items are resolved directly with the manufacturer under manufacturer warranty."
https://www.universal-radio.com/cata...rxvr/0410.html

I am glad I waited as it seems that some dealers do not want to deal with a defective AOR product when AOR does not want to address the defect. It is not like the defect can be totally hidden from users, unless AOR will quietly fix the defect for their "major" customers. Hobbyists seem to be a minor marketing segment to them.

73 Eric
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Old 06-27-2018, 5:03 PM
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Default A Real Shame

I find it hard to believe decisions like these are being taken by, or being condoned at AOR's Senior Management level, but perhaps they are?

Goodness, the Japanese are 'canny' business people. Trying to 'get the toothpaste back into the tube' with any sort of tactic is so short sighted as to be ludicrous.

Any Company would risk destroying their reputation, which AOR's was justifiably very high as far as I am concerned.

Over the years i have praised AOR time and time again on the Net, in many places, and publicly defended them when they released firmware for the DV1 which caused problems. I know how difficult that sort of thing can be, due to really unexpected and hard to identify side effects.

They got things wrong with the DV10, I am genuinely sorry for them about that, but even sorrier for Customers regarding what appears to be happening now.

OK, it is going to cost them money, but if anyone is to blame it is within the Manufacturer's ranks, not Customers who have discovered and published them.

Surely AOR's high Senior Management should see that the Company spends some time, money and energy to get the DV10 right, and let it take its place as the 'flagship' hand held receiver that AOR, and we want it to be, rather than apparently adopting a 'Shoot The Messenger' syndrome, and/or 'if we pretend we are Ostriches this may go away' approach.

I for one want to see AOR come out of this with their reputation in tact, at the very least.

From my perspective, and I imagine I am not alone, if AOR publicly acknowledge the problems, and agree to correct them for current and new Customers, I would not hold the present DV10's problems against them, but be impressed, and in my book their reputation should and would be justifiably enhanced.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2018, 5:17 PM
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Thanks for saving me 1K.

I've had a couple of 8200's in the past and I think I'll stick with those. No digital around here.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2018, 5:26 PM
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You can get a more exact error measurement if you use CW mode or SSB. Use no modulatation, just a carrier and adjust the generators RF frequency to give no beat tone. As the frequency drift away you will hear the beat tone go up in frequency so adjust to no tone again to get the exact frequency drift. You measurement indicate a 6 PPM drift.

The #2 crackling tone concerns me a bit. It's usually a telltale sign of a bad IF filter. It could be broken or perhaps a bad design with a lot of ripple. If you can select another IF filter it would probably not have a crackling tone when the frequency are a few KHz off, or else it might be a bad design or too low quality of the IF filters.

/Ubbe
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Old 06-27-2018, 5:48 PM
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Default TEST

I chose FM as it is the Mode used by Digital signals, and it is those in particular that will suffer when the Receiver drifts so much.

I chose the 6k bandwidth because that is the one that best suits picking up and decoding DMR signals, and it is in the main DMR 'misses' that most people have been reporting, when comparing the DV10 against other makes of Digital receiver. Always remembering that the DV10's key attraction is likely to be its supposed ability to capture so many different Digital modes.

So I decided those decisions were the most sensible way of testing. Worth repeating that it is the 'practical' rather than 'theoretical' effect of drift on Digital reception that is important. It does not take much drift to cause a Receiver to completely 'miss' a Digital transmission. It just sits there, apparently on frequency, but remains inert, so unless someone has a different Receiver also monitoring that frequency, one just never knows a signal was being sent.

I agree that 'poor' or inappropriate filters may be part of the problem, but problems there are.

Possibly the most 'telling' result is that the AR-DV1 (which was powered up and in the same environment throughout) remained rock solid on Frequency and Tone reception before and after the DV10 tests were completed.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2018, 10:59 AM
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There are no hardware IF filters in the DV10, it should be all done in DSP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubbe View Post
You can get a more exact error measurement if you use CW mode or SSB. Use no modulatation, just a carrier and adjust the generators RF frequency to give no beat tone. As the frequency drift away you will hear the beat tone go up in frequency so adjust to no tone again to get the exact frequency drift. You measurement indicate a 6 PPM drift.

The #2 crackling tone concerns me a bit. It's usually a telltale sign of a bad IF filter. It could be broken or perhaps a bad design with a lot of ripple. If you can select another IF filter it would probably not have a crackling tone when the frequency are a few KHz off, or else it might be a bad design or too low quality of the IF filters.

/Ubbe
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2018, 4:40 AM
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Hello All,

I have asked for assistance on this issue from a distributor and have this to report to the forum as of today from a distributor;

----------------------
I just sent the following enquiry to AOR in Japan a few minutes ago...

A prospective scanning receiver purchaser is interested in buying an AOR AR-DV10 or Icom IC-R30 from us.
He's asking (and some other customers are also asking similar questions)...
"OK thanks. Can you also update me on the AOR Dv10 issues that are happening with the stability and drift". Thanks,.

Is AOR planning to improve the frequency stability of the AR-DV10 re frequency drift vs. temperature, e.g. such as by fitting a higher specification reference oscillator crystal to AR-DV10s in future?
----------------------

If anyone else has feedback please post.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 07-06-2018, 4:22 PM
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Default Contacting dealers / distributors is important

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac20 View Post
Hello All,

I have asked for assistance on this issue from a distributor and have this to report to the forum as of today from a distributor;

----------------------
I just sent the following enquiry to AOR in Japan a few minutes ago...

A prospective scanning receiver purchaser is interested in buying an AOR AR-DV10 or Icom IC-R30 from us.
He's asking (and some other customers are also asking similar questions)...
"OK thanks. Can you also update me on the AOR Dv10 issues that are happening with the stability and drift". Thanks,.

Is AOR planning to improve the frequency stability of the AR-DV10 re frequency drift vs. temperature, e.g. such as by fitting a higher specification reference oscillator crystal to AR-DV10s in future?
----------------------

If anyone else has feedback please post.
Anyone who has, or is considering buying an AR-DV10 should look at this Facebook Group:-

https://www.facebook.com/groups/158803928160530/

It contains important information.

The first post recommends exactly the sort of email suggestion in the Quote above.

There must be many of us who want the AR-DV10 to be a success, however without the critical frequency drift problem being fixed, that is probably unlikely.

Over the next few weeks and months it will be very important to ensure the Dealers / Distributors are made aware that people who were interested, are now NOT buying the Radio until they can be assured the problems HAVE been corrected, particularly those relating to frequency drift.

I STRONGLY recommend anyone considering buying the DV10 FIRST email the Dealer they would have purchased it from, and ask them to reveal whether they have notified AOR about the problems (mentioning the frequency drift), and whether AOR have responded regarding correcting them.

Many of the current UK and European owners have already done this, however IF we have a hope of seeing a corrected DV10 emerge, that becomes the success it should be, it is imperative as many people as possible take the time to email as above.
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Old 07-06-2018, 4:57 PM
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You saved me from a lot of grief. I held off on the AR DV10 and went with the Icom R-30.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:19 AM
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Default Update response

One of the replies I have on this is as follows;

----------------------------------
Here is the reply from our engineer:

The AR-DV10 brochure states +/-5ppm frequency stability. In clear that means that if you are receiving a signal at 450MHz, it might drift by +/- 2250Hz.
At 140MHz itís approx +/-1000Hz.

After turning on the AR-DV10, internal temperature is rapidly increasing , that would make the frequency drift.

+/-2250Hz is no problem for decoding of digital modes, since the filter bandwidth is 15000Hz.

In comparison, the AR-DV1 is 2.5ppm, AR5001D is 0.1ppm.
----------------------------------

NOTE:
Can more people please help me on this, I have still in perfect working condition an AOR8000 from mid-late 1990's, always amazing hardware and this issue if correct really surprises me. AOR are known to be a very solid manufacturer and RF people. Anyone with the AOR from all over the world please let me know what you think.
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Old 07-10-2018, 6:24 AM
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Default Flawed engineer's report

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac20 View Post
One of the replies I have on this is as follows;

----------------------------------
Here is the reply from our engineer:

The AR-DV10 brochure states +/-5ppm frequency stability. In clear that means that if you are receiving a signal at 450MHz, it might drift by +/- 2250Hz.
At 140MHz itís approx +/-1000Hz.

After turning on the AR-DV10, internal temperature is rapidly increasing , that would make the frequency drift.

+/-2250Hz is no problem for decoding of digital modes, since the filter bandwidth is 15000Hz.

In comparison, the AR-DV1 is 2.5ppm, AR5001D is 0.1ppm.
----------------------------------
1. DMR, along with P25 phase II and NXDN use 6.25 kHz IF Bandwidth, NOT 15 kHz as it states. That in itself is enough to explain why the DV10 is just NOT receiving/decoding many Digital signals other makes of Radio (and AOR's DV1) are managing to find.

In this respect it is VERY IMPORTANT for people to realise that because the DV10 has drifted that far off frequency, quite often it will just remain totally SILENT despite a Digital signal being present.

With an off-frequency Analogue signal you may hear it, but not as well if it was actually monitoring the correct Frequency (as one would expect from a high end Receiver i.e. the one the DV10 is showing on its display). With a Digital signal, unless it is very strong, there will be no indication that a transmission is in progress whatsoever.

2. Irrespective of what this Report implies, the DV10 as it warms up has been shown to drift so far that even HF signals need to be manually re-tuned to hear them correctly. As the desired Frequency increases, so does the drift figure. There are YouTube videos about this, and Owner reports on the Facebook Forum.

3. When it comes to the DV10 missing Digital signals, again people should look at the YouTube videos and read the posts at the Facebook Forum.

4. Reports like the above may try to 'blind people with science', but the bottom line is a DV10 user who was in a position to compare reception with another Digital radio cannot fail but to be bitterly disappointed with the actual results.

5. The ARDV1 is fine. No drift. No re-tuning necessary at any Frequency. Finds, receives and decodes Digital signals on the Frequency it is displaying. The DV10 is advertised as setting 'NEW STANDARDS'. Sadly it does, but new 'lower standards' which many are finding unacceptable.
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Old 07-10-2018, 6:39 AM
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Wonder if the "reply from our engineer" was translated from French ?

Mike
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:24 AM
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Hello,

What I find interesting is the report of using the adjust menu to change the reference setting. When the reference oscillator setting was changed to bring the DV10 back on frequency, lower frequencies were off. This indicates to me that the problem is not the reference oscillator, but another fixed frequency oscillator further on in the receive chain.

73 Eric
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:56 AM
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This is generally true. If you have up and down conversion in the same radio and everything else is working right, the upconverted and downconverted signals will go different directions when the master osc is off and will zero out when the master osc is at the correct frequency. If not then another local oscillator not tied to the main reference is usually off frequency.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EricCottrell View Post
Hello,

What I find interesting is the report of using the adjust menu to change the reference setting. When the reference oscillator setting was changed to bring the DV10 back on frequency, lower frequencies were off. This indicates to me that the problem is not the reference oscillator, but another fixed frequency oscillator further on in the receive chain.

73 Eric
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:11 PM
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How does the IF bandwidth relate to a specific signal bandwith? Any legit engineer can explain his theory to me..
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