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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:29 AM
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How does a 6.25 signal relate to 15 IF bandwidth? To me it obviously does not. Its either me misunderstanding it or this “engineer” who doesn’t understand what hes talking about.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac20 View Post
One of the replies I have on this is as follows;

----------------------------------
Here is the reply from our engineer:

The AR-DV10 brochure states +/-5ppm frequency stability. In clear that means that if you are receiving a signal at 450MHz, it might drift by +/- 2250Hz.
At 140MHz it’s approx +/-1000Hz.

After turning on the AR-DV10, internal temperature is rapidly increasing , that would make the frequency drift.

+/-2250Hz is no problem for decoding of digital modes, since the filter bandwidth is 15000Hz.

In comparison, the AR-DV1 is 2.5ppm, AR5001D is 0.1ppm.
----------------------------------
The reply that claims to from "our engineer" is pretty much the standard text that AOR Japan send out, that is very similar to what they emailed me 2 weeks ago.

This is what they wrote:-

"1. As the frequency stability is +/-5ppm, the drift you describe is unlikely, however understanding the wish of higher frequency stability for a better receiving experience, we will work on the firmware to add a function which adjusts frequency depending on the internal temperature. That might take some time.
2. With +/-5ppm, at 450MHz it might drift by +/- 2250Hz which is within official specifications. However understanding the wish of higher frequency stability for a better receiving experience, we will work on the firmware to add a function which adjusts frequency depending on the internal temperature. That might take some time."


To clarify a few points here.

1. The DV10 has to be tuned +3kHz at 450MHz, +8.5kHz at 900MHz after about 1 hour at an ambient temperature of 20 deg C, it is supposed to maintain +/- 5ppm from -10 deg C to + 50C operating temperature.

2. At HF, 5MHz, it drifts the opposite direction and has to be tuned -300Hz at 20 deg C which is 54.5ppm, 10 times out of spec.

3. 15kHz is far too wide a filter for DMR, NX48, iDas, dStar, 6kHz is plenty wide enough. The 15kHz filter setting is their botch attempt to capture the signals because its so off frequency, this gives a higher BER which means much poorer digital decoding.

4. Searching in automode AUT1 using a 6.25kHz step causes the DV10 to stop 1 channel before the received signal, some signals here are 3.125kHz spaced apart making it absolutely useless. I've asked AOR to add an option of a 6kHz filter or a second automode, I get the impression they are too ignorant and arrogant to implement it though.

From my tests you can adjust the frequency via the factory menu to correct it when hot but if you correct it 3kHz at 450MHz it doubles the error at 5MHz leaving it 600Hz off.

The receiver block diagram shows 2 local oscillators, one for 100kHz to 76MHz and another for 76MHz to 1300MHz, with the setting in the factory menu called PLL_REF it affects both frequency blocks but its not possible to tune it correctly at all frequencies. PLL_REF can be set between 0x0000 and 0xFFFF.

There is also a menu item called TUNE_REF, its value changes from 0x08A at 76MHz to 0xFFF at 1300MHz, it has no effect below 76MHz. In the menu it can be moved and it moves the tuning but any change in value cannot be stored. It appears to be some kind of tuning lookup table which cannot be modified, there is a narrower bandpass filter shown on the 76-1300 signal path, this may be a tunable tracking filter which also uses this TUNE_REF value.

The DV10 is total mess, its off frequency when hot, its way out of spec, its riddled with bugs, it needs to be withdrawn from sale.

AOR don't really want to discuss it, their standard answer is "we will work on firmware but it might take some time"

Yaesu, who claim to have been working together with AOR on the front page of their website replied via Twitter:-

"Contact AOR as it is not a Yaesu product."
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2018, 1:28 PM
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Apparently its ok for a company like AOR to ship half baked products to their customers and then expect the customer to have patience while they “finish” it, Without doing any statement when... all they do is saying stuff like the firmware is complex, it takes time, we dont have live DMR signals to test, etc.. like you should accept this BS as a paying customer. Companys like these should not be in business, and governments should avoid using their stuff when it comes to public safety.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2018, 3:19 PM
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Using the AOR DV10 for COSPAS SARSAT is also a complete joke, with 406MHz channels spaced 3kHz apart you would be on the wrong channel.

Beacons use a +/- 0.2ppm TCXO, AOR spec the DV10 at +/- 5ppm, fail to meet it and then sell it as a search and rescue device.

Perhaps PRO-SIC who is AOR France and F5HPE would care to explain this seeing as he sells the COSPAS keys for 180 euros each to go in a device that is not fit for that function?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2018, 6:52 PM
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Default What are the options to fix these issues

Hello All,

Thank you for the candid replies. Some clarity, I am in Australia, we may not be a big market I am not sure, however, AOR have been selling here for as long as I can remember (at least 1990's).

Given all the feedback, what are the options to have this rectified ?

Can it be rectified via software ?

Thank you all in advance.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2018, 2:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac20 View Post
Hello All,

Given all the feedback, what are the options to have this rectified ?

Can it be rectified via software ?
If you read the other posts I think those questions have been answered. It is in AOR's hands. At the moment they still seem to be trying to minimise, (closer to ignore) the biggest problem, 'drift', or pretend it is OK.

There are two options
1. A software fix
Although nothing is impossible, it is very unlikely to work, mainly because frequencies are affected differently by their size, and the drift also depends on the actual temperature of the radio.

So one could perhaps add software that might force 450.050 stay in tune, however the same coding would not work for 150.050 etc.

Bearing in mind other radios remain stable, and there is no indication they have to constantly apply software to compensate for frequency drift.

Goodness knows how much internal memory it would take to try to compensate over the entire Frequency range, and how much all that constant checking would slow the receiver down. Even if AOR did that, it would only be a 'fudge'.

2. Hardware fix
Here is the 'rub'. The only way of fixing this issue correctly would require changes at component level. A re-design of the DV10's hardware.

AOR do not like that (obviously) Instead of 'coming clean' and promising new and existing Purchasers that they will fix this, they appear to be keeping quiet and hoping this will just go away.

That might work for a £50 radio, but not one costing £1000.

3. AOR have produced some very impressive receivers, but risk their well deserved 'high' reputation if they do not go 'public' about the DV10, and their intentions to fix it.

Those of us who paid out £1000 did so on the back of AOR's reputation, and believing the DV10 would be 'fit for purpose' in all respects, as advertised.

It almost goes without saying that we bought the radio because we wanted one, not to be able to moan about it. Those of us who had experience with the AR-DV1 expected there would be some firmware issues with the new receiver initially. Those would be corrected over time.

However, for all the reasons stated in other Posts on this thread, the DV10 has flaws that cannot truly be fixed by software.

It does not seem unreasonable to expect a receiver to remain 'listening' on the frequency that is shown on its display, and not slowly drift so far away it can no longer finds a signal that appears, especially Digital ones.

Sadly some 'Engineers' and AOR seem to find that unreasonable. One way or another they have themselves to blame

Either
AOR should NOT have produced previous receivers that are totally stable (lol), with the obvious example being the AR-DV1.
OR
the DV10 should have been released without this unacceptable drift,

I had many very good reasons, mainly personal but some commercial, for buying my DV10. After carrying out my tests using proper equipment, under controlled settings, and verifying what others had found, I reluctantly returned the receiver.

Except for the DV10, all the AOR receivers I have purchased are great. I still want to believe AOR is a great Company.

If AOR had acknowledged the DV10 problem not only existed, but fell short of acceptable standards, and promised it would be rectified for existing Owners, even if that meant exchanging the first batch at some time in the future, the DV10 would still be sitting on my desk.

Of course initially that would eat into their profits. I am sorry for them about that, but if they must look for blame then it lies within their Organisation surely?

'Come clean' and in the long term their reputation would remain untarnished, and for many people their trust in AOR may well have been enhanced.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2018, 3:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac20 View Post
Hello All,

Thank you for the candid replies. Some clarity, I am in Australia, we may not be a big market I am not sure, however, AOR have been selling here for as long as I can remember (at least 1990's).

Given all the feedback, what are the options to have this rectified ?

Can it be rectified via software ?

Thank you all in advance.
AOR Japan are not replying to emails anymore, the proper fix is add a better hardware TCXO.

I have repeatedly asked them if they think they can fix it firmware and they don't respond.

AOR France / PRO-SIC / F5HPE who are one and the same claimed to have information, after exchanging a couple of emails and pointing out his DV10 Manager software caused the radio to lock and didn't work properly he got teary and sent me an extremely rude email reply.

You can read all about the faults and bugs here:-

https://www.aoruk.co.uk/
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:20 PM
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Default Hopeful news

Hello all,

I have just been responded to on these issues as follows;

------------------------------

AOR in Japan have already responded to your email. They state that almost all of those issues have recently been addressed by their engineers, with an announcement re addressing the remainder to be made within the next few days.

-------------------------------

So, I want to personally reach out to all that have raised the concerns, let's give AOR a chance on this and if they come through on it all one way or another (which I do believe they will given their history) it's great news for all of us.

For one I have been waiting for 2 years to get this receiver.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2018, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac20 View Post
Hello all,

I have just been responded to on these issues as follows;

------------------------------

AOR in Japan have already responded to your email. They state that almost all of those issues have recently been addressed by their engineers, with an announcement re addressing the remainder to be made within the next few days.
We await their announcement with fingers crossed....
By the way who were you responded to by - which AOR, Japan, Australia, USA.. ?

Mike
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2018, 1:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac20 View Post
Hello all,

I have just been responded to on these issues as follows;

------------------------------

AOR in Japan have already responded to your email. They state that almost all of those issues have recently been addressed by their engineers, with an announcement re addressing the remainder to be made within the next few days.

-------------------------------

So, I want to personally reach out to all that have raised the concerns, let's give AOR a chance on this and if they come through on it all one way or another (which I do believe they will given their history) it's great news for all of us.

For one I have been waiting for 2 years to get this receiver.
I guess this depends which issues you raised with them, they still haven't confirmed if they can sort out the frequency error/drift in firmware, if they can't do that then the DV10 is useless.

AORs communication is abysmal, last 3 emails have been ignored, their French dealer sent me a rude email when I pointed out his software didn't work.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2018, 4:05 PM
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[QUOTE=TMac20;2965113

So, I want to personally reach out to all that have raised the concerns, let's give AOR a chance on this and if they come through on it all one way or another (which I do believe they will given their history) it's great news for all of us.
.[/QUOTE]

Should AR-DV10 customers be sympathetic about being stuck with a Radio that should never have been released in its present form? AOR are not doing us 'favours' by putting some of the many DV10's issues right, that should never have been present in the first place.

What we want is for AOR to give 'us the chance' of possessing a Radio that operates correctly, after laying out so much cash for it.

Unless the frequency drift issue is correctly 'fixed' by addressing the necessary hardware changes at component level, (and not just 'fudged' in firmware) then our 'chances' do not amount to much.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2018, 8:40 PM
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Hello,

I agree that getting something new that does not perform as you would expect to be a large let down - and also not good business practice. However, the options if that was your case is you return the unit for a full refund. Then you wait and see if the unit can come up to the standard it should be at. If not, move on with another solution, end of story and don't use or buy the hardware from that manufacturer. I can see the frustration, I can see it really should not have happened (and I am certain that AOR did not want this headache either - it does not serve any good for them).

Let's see what the next few days bring once they respond publicly.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2018, 8:41 PM
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Hello,

My dealings are in Australia who have direct communication with AOR in Japan.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2018, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodpecker View Post
I guess this depends which issues you raised with them, they still haven't confirmed if they can sort out the frequency error/drift in firmware, if they can't do that then the DV10 is useless.

AORs communication is abysmal, last 3 emails have been ignored, their French dealer sent me a rude email when I pointed out his software didn't work.
Hello,

I raised very single issue I coudl find on this forum and others. Every one. So now let's see what they do to rectify ALL of them. Whether that is hardware and or software I personally don't care - as long as it can do what it is meant and perform correctly I will be happy.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac20 View Post
Hello,

I agree that getting something new that does not perform as you would expect to be a large let down - and also not good business practice. However, the options if that was your case is you return the unit for a full refund. Then you wait and see if the unit can come up to the standard it should be at. If not, move on with another solution, end of story and don't use or buy the hardware from that manufacturer. I can see the frustration, I can see it really should not have happened (and I am certain that AOR did not want this headache either - it does not serve any good for them).

Let's see what the next few days bring once they respond publicly.
Your posts make no sense, your language does not sound like Australian English, new account opened a few days ago and your only posts on this thread, who exactly are you? AOR?

AORs attitude to the customer is disgusting, they have produced a receiver which is unfit for the advertised purpose, they request bug reports on their website and then send out either auto replies or ignore emails completely, their so called development partner Yaesu refuse to make any comment saying contact AOR.

How exactly do you know AOR are going to reply publicly in the next few days, they should have already made a proper announcement or at least responded with exacty what they were doing to those of us that found and reported all these issues.

I have NEVER come across any electronic product in such an unready mess, releasing a product for sale in this state is ridiculous, did AOR really think they could get away with this?
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2018, 1:47 AM
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Hi, I live in Sydney, I am Australian, I purchased my first AOR8000 from Andrews Communications who have been a leader in Australia and the longest AOR direct support/supplier (and many other radio comms equipment) in Australia since AOR nearly began operations in the 1970's.

I am not defending AOR, I can see your not happy, and understand that. I am not making anything personal. I have been watching the forums since they began on and off on RR. It's the first time I have bothered to jump in with some input/ask questions after this major issue on the DV10 you guys and others have experianced.

No one but AOR and Yaesu know the commercial limits on what the later can or can't say. I certainly don't know, but will be patient to see the update/response/fix (hopefully 100% all of the issues will be fixed - whether that is hardware replaced/software updated whatever).

My intention to give the feedback I received was to try to get clarity before I made the purchase which I have had success in doing so - for all of the people interested/tainted/possible purchasers etc. This obviously has been helpful as no one here has had any success in that getting the confirmation I have had. I have the emails if needed, you can contact me directly and we can chat - I have nothing to hide. It troubled me that no one was getting anywhere and to spend around $1600 AUD is a lot on a receiver so I wanted to make sure I get what I wanted (I am still not convinced I will buy yet).

I'm not sure what else I can other than as a consumer of many electronics/software/source code/vehicles and many others things over the years, I have been affected by some things not up to par as marketed. It's not acceptable, and the only recourse is deal direct with the place purchased from or the manufacturer - or the courts as a last resort if all of that fails to address the problems.

If your not happy with AOR - don't buy their product, leave it as it is with your complaint and move on. If you still have the unit, return it get your money back. I'm also considering the Icom ICR30 (and have watched all the banter on the Uniden SDS100) on RR.

If I can help I will, its good for all of us into monitoring/ham etc.
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Old 07-13-2018, 2:38 AM
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TMac20:

There is no worries to be on the side of AOR. The posts and videos of Woodpecker make laugh even among French users who are not fooled by his strategy . His comments only consolidate and highlight the ongoing permanent efforts of manufacturers engineers who, whatever he says, do a great job of upgrading and changing receivers.

Moreover, when he says that my application blocks the DV10, he deliberately fails to say that he disconnects the USB cable of the DV10 without disconnecting the software. That is why AOR had anticipated such errors after the details described on page 9 of the manual.

Finally, how could a prestigious brand like AOR have been able to take the risk of presenting my application to HAMFAIR2017 for the 40 years of the brand, if my application was so bad.

I'm still waiting from Woodpecket to send me the bugg.txt file to check how my application could locks the DV10. But he provide me no evidence expecte fake videos.

By the way, the new 1807 firmware has improved digital decoding mode.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2018, 2:52 AM
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And here is the update today

AR-DV10 | Firmware Updates | Download Area | Support | AOR,LTD. Authority On Radio Communications
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Old 07-13-2018, 2:52 AM
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Firmware version history:

1807A 2018/07/13
Feature improvements:
- Better frequency accuracy through additional automatic temperature compensation by FPGA/CPU
- Better P25 and DMR decoding
- Better SSB audio quality
- Better SD card compatibility for recordings.
- CTCSS, DCS, reverse tone, voice scramble user settings now displayed during reception.

Bug fixes:
- Head of digital signals sometimes cut
- D-STAR only working in AUTO mode
- SI command behaved erratically.
- LCD contrast sometimes turned dark during charging.
- Dial selector knob sometimes irresponsive in MemCHEDIT and SearchBankEDIT.
- Other minor fixes
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Old 07-13-2018, 2:55 AM
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Yes ! That's fine. Also i'm already testing it with my DV10.
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