stirring the pot - rumors of an ESK scanner...

[mr_hankey]

check this out:

http://sanantoniofire.org/safd/safire_edacs.htm#10

near the bottom of the page.

[crayon]

ooooooooo. sweet. :)

Although it says that there are scanners out there that can monitor EDACS, they fail to mention the ProVoice thingy.The only way to listen is to use two scanners and a dedicated computer to decode the control channel.

[mlevin]

Funny you'd think they'd want to keep that info from the public, not spoon feed it.

[scannerfreak]

I doubt they would R&D an ESK capable scanner without including pro-voice. Wonder where this info came from? I did an extinsive search of the fcc and could not find anything on this. Considering the source I wouldn't doubt it's authenticity though. Looks pretty credible. I see Lindsay is on there as a contributor. Maybee he knows something?

Also, I see they list it as EDACS "system key". It's actully EDACS "security key".


PS- In searching I did find the users manual for the 898T 8) I also just relized that the info won't be there until it is granted. :evil:

[waynesewell]

Funny you'd think they'd want to keep that info from the public, not spoon feed it.

With a link to uniden yet.

[N_Jay]

I doubt they would R&D an ESK capable scanner without including pro-voice. Wonder where this info came from? I did an extinsive search of the fcc and could not find anything on this. Considering the source I wouldn't doubt it's authenticity though. Looks pretty credible. I see Lindsay is on there as a contributor. Maybee he knows something?

Also, I see they list it as EDACS "system key". It's actully EDACS "security key".


PS- In searching I did find the users manual for the 898T 8) I also just relized that the info won't be there until it is granted. :evil:


"Uniden / Bearcat has applied to the FCC for a license to build a scanner that will track the ESK."

You mean applied for Type Acceptance?

[Voyager]

I doubt they would R&D an ESK capable scanner without including pro-voice. Wonder where this info came from? I did an extinsive search of the fcc and could not find anything on this. Considering the source I wouldn't doubt it's authenticity though. Looks pretty credible. I see Lindsay is on there as a contributor. Maybee he knows something?

Also, I see they list it as EDACS "system key". It's actully EDACS "security key".


PS- In searching I did find the users manual for the 898T 8) I also just relized that the info won't be there until it is granted. :evil:


"Uniden / Bearcat has applied to the FCC for a license to build a scanner that will track the ESK."

You mean applied for Type Acceptance?

Or they applied to M/A-COM for a license to add ESK to their scanners. It's M/A-COM who holds the rights to it, not the FCC, and it's M/A-COM who will grant or deny them a license to use the proprietary format. The FCC has no say over what formats scanners can or cannot incoprporate. It's not part of type acceptance.

However, I would hardly call a one-line statement with no supporting data credible evidence. Yes, there is a link to Uniden's MAIN web page (www.uniden.com). So what? That doesn't add any credibility. I can make a statement and add a link to the FCC page. That doesn't mean that the FCC (or in this case, Uniden) supports any statement made by any third party. If it were a link to a Uniden page that confirms the statement, that would be different, but that is not the case here.

Joe M.

[scannerfreak]

I wasn't considering the link, I was considering the source. Looking at the site, these seem to be people "in the know" and just not your everyday scanner website. Who knows, it could be BS.

[UPMan]

Not sure where they got it, but it is bad information. :(

[scannerfreak]

Even if they do make an ESK capable scanner, wouldn't you still need to get the "security key" from S/A? Something tells me they're not going to up and give it to you!

[mr_hankey]

Even if they do make an ESK capable scanner, wouldn't you still need to get the "security key" from S/A? Something tells me they're not going to up and give it to you!

you would most likely select the key value from 0 to 255 - perhaps using a menu and scroll bar - to allow decoding of the ESK EDACS control channel.

[scannerfreak]

Even if they do make an ESK capable scanner, wouldn't you still need to get the "security key" from S/A? Something tells me they're not going to up and give it to you!

you would most likely select the key value from 0 to 255 - perhaps using a menu and scroll bar - to allow decoding of the ESK EDACS control channel.

Aha, I see. Only 255 posibilities? Interesting, That doesn't seem so secure does it? I thought it might be like encryption with millions of codes.

[AZScanner]

you would most likely select the key value from 0 to 255 - perhaps using a menu and scroll bar - to allow decoding of the ESK EDACS control channel.

Why even do that? It's only 256 possible values, so the scanner could do it for you.

I imagine that they could implement a function that works just like the PL/DPL search mode: You'd simply park the scanner on the control channel and then select "ESK Search" or something like that from the menu. It would then try all the possible values, checking for valid EDACS data on the control channel with each one. When it finds one that works, you'd hear the familiar 2 beeps and you'd press Enter to lock it in. Voila, all done.

How hard would that be to implement? I'm guessing that it would be pretty easy.

-AZ

[crayon]

How hard would that be to implement? I'm guessing that it would be pretty easy.
agreed. That is what I was thinking .. that would be trivial.

[milf]

Yeah the ESK part might be easy... its getting the PRO Voice part thats not so easy lol.. Though if Tyco/Ma-Com is allowing the ESK to be done, then why not let PV happen?

[Voyager]

Yeah the ESK part might be easy... its getting the PRO Voice part thats not so easy lol.. Though if Tyco/Ma-Com is allowing the ESK to be done, then why not let PV happen?

Because ESK doesn't get you much. As I understand it, it's not a security measure - but more of an LTR area code to keep systems using the same control frequencies separate. ESK has already been 'cracked' and getting the code is no more difficult than getting the system ID for a motorola system. In fact, that may be a better analogy. It would be nice if scanners would actually use the Motorola System ID to separate systems, but that would probably require a license to prevent pattent infringement.

Withholding PV means they can still market those systems as unscannable.

Joe M.

[mr_hankey]

ESK has already been 'cracked' and getting the code is no more difficult than getting the system ID for a motorola system. In fact, that may be a better analogy. It would be nice if scanners would actually use the.

a flash-programmable download for ESK in current Uniden scanners would be nice...the feature can still be used on mixed-mode systems (ProVoice/Analog).

[MikeOxlong]

Has the link been changed? I checked the website and found no information that Uniden has any plans to build an ESK/Provoice scanner.

There's the relevant quote that I found:

Uniden/Bearcat is not currently making or planning a Provoice or ESK-capable scanner (to-date, only Provoice systems have incorporated ESK).

With a quote like this lifted direct from the website, I don't know how some people have come up with the idea that Uniden is planning/building such a scanner?

Why search the FCC website for such a scanner when it doesn't exist?

Are some people reading to much into this website or has something changed on it? Did it ever say Uniden was planning such a scanner?

[scannerfreak]

Well, seems The info has indeed been changed :o :?

[Voyager]

Has the link been changed? I checked the website and found no information that Uniden has any plans to build an ESK/Provoice scanner.

There's the relevant quote that I found:

Uniden/Bearcat is not currently making or planning a Provoice or ESK-capable scanner (to-date, only Provoice systems have incorporated ESK).

With a quote like this lifted direct from the website, I don't know how some people have come up with the idea that Uniden is planning/building such a scanner?

It USED to say something much different. Note the date of 'current': "June 2004". Just read the quote posted by NJay above. That's what it USED to say. I like how it now closely reflects the comments posted on this thread. :D

Joe M.

[mlevin]

I like how it says that is's absolutely essential to make such a scanner. Also, what's IMBE Provoice? I thoughtb they where two different things. If IMBE is Provoice, then shouldn't any other digital scanner be able to work.

[Voyager]

I like how it says that is's absolutely essential to make such a scanner. Also, what's IMBE Provoice? I thoughtb they where two different things. If IMBE is Provoice, then shouldn't any other digital scanner be able to work.

IMBE = Improved Multiband Excitation

It doesn't necessarily refer to any specific format - just a scheme.

Think of it this way: IMBE = Hamburger, while you have Whoppers, Big Macs, Triples, etc. (ALA P25, ProVoice, VSELP, Etc)

Joe M.

[Thayne]

ProVoice is IMBE; but a different "Flavor" than APCO-25. Believe me it has been decoded with A PC, but nobody cares to get sued, so we might as well leave it at that. I am sure if money could be made a scanner will come out for it--

If Mo keeps his shoes on I will be sure to ration the Coronas :lol:

[Voyager]

ProVoice is IMBE; but a different "Flavor" than APCO-25. Believe me it has been decoded with A PC, but nobody cares to get sued, so we might as well leave it at that. I am sure if money could be made a scanner will come out for it--


It doesn't matter if there is money to be made or not. If M/A-Com doesn't want to release the rights, it won't get made - period. If it is made, M/A-Com will own the company that decided to market it - EVEN if it's Uniden, RS/GRE, AOR, or Icom.

Joe M.

[mlevin]

ProVoice is IMBE; but a different "Flavor" than APCO-25. Believe me it has been decoded with A PC, but nobody cares to get sued, so we might as well leave it at that. I am sure if money could be made a scanner will come out for it--

If Mo keeps his shoes on I will be sure to ration the Coronas :lol:

Ahh okay. I was always under the impression that IMBE is APCO25, and provoice was just another kind of digital, not another kind of IMBE.

What's with you and the coronas. Besides I'm not one for alcoholic beverages (I've tasted for religious ceremonies). I'm underage anyways :D

[JohnWayne]

I highly doubt that any ESK-capable scanner will be coming along any time soon. ESK is a highly-guarded proprietary technology. Also, it is not as simple as entering 1 of 256 possible values in to a field and having it work. To program ESK in to a real radio requires several pieces of hardware and software which are expensive and not sold to just anyone. Here is an excerpt:

M/A-COM’s EDACS Security Key (ESK) feature provides a method to prevent unauthorized use of EDACS radio systems and modification of EDACS radio personalities. This optional system feature allows a customer to define one or more security key variables that are used to encode the over-the-air communications between the radio and a radio network, and limit access to radio programming functionality. This encoding has the affect of making the radio network invisible to radios without the proper Key. Depending on radio network security requirements, sites can be programmed with different keys to create security zones. Radios may be programmed with multiple keys to allow interoperability between zones when necessary. Keys from "foreign" networks may also be programmed into radios to allow these radios to communicate on disconnected networks that are also using the ESK feature.

Keys are stored in a secure environment and protected using Key Card technology. The Key Card is a credit card-sized plastic card with an embedded microcomputer chip that is capable of operating independently from the host computer to which it may be attached. This tamper-resistant Key Card provides two-factor user authentication, and an on-board cryptographic engine to protect unauthorized access to the encoded security keys. These cards are used to transport and install the security key(s) in the radio personality and to introduce the key to the sites.

M/A-COM’s ESK Administrator software provides security personnel with the tools to create and manage the EDACS Security Key variables and necessary Key Cards. This application is wizard driven for ease of use. Multiple Keys can easily be encoded in minutes.
All EDACS administration and programming software (ProGrammer, ProFile Manager, and CSD) that handle EDACS Security Keys utilizes a Key Card Reader and proprietary software to access the Key Cards. When accompanied by a password, two-factor authentication is used to secure the keys from unauthorized use.

Users are people within different segments of the EDACS environment who use other programming applications, such as ProGrammer, CSD or ProFile Manager. Users will receive the User Password, which is the password to access the Key Card, and Key Card from the EDACS Security Key Administrator to implement the ESK feature.

As you can see, MA-Com is pretty serious about the security of EDACS Security Key.

Jeff

[Voyager]

I highly doubt that any ESK-capable scanner will be coming along any time soon. ESK is a highly-guarded proprietary technology. Also, it is not as simple as entering 1 of 256 possible values in to a field and having it work.

(big snip)

While that looks great for a 'brag file', hasn't ESK been 'hacked' already by the Trunker types, and was found to have a possibility of 256 values?

As I said before, ESK is a relative 'peanuts' compared with ProVoice. Since only PV systems are currently using ESK, what does it matter that a scanner can (or could) do ESK. You still won't see PV in a scanner unless M/A-Com (are they still called that this week? :wink: ) grants a license to allow a manufacturer use their proprietary code in their product.

It takes a lot to program ANY trunked radio relative to the same scheme in a scanner, so that's a moot point. We don't need to worry about systems access, authentication, or any of the matters that make programming transceivers a pain.

And let's face it, if there are only 256 'key' combinations, as has been posted, it's quite easy to have the unit automate the selection. How many different IR codes are there? Yet, you see universal remotes on the market.

Joe M.

[Thayne]

Hey Mo, I guess the Corona thing must be a fetish or something. Please don't take it to heart. When I was a kid I had a thing for Twinkies until I had too many and barfed. After that it was Hamms beer, same result-- :lol:

As far as what voyager said about ProVoice, I agree; but I think what might happen is that because most radios are software configured, someone (Not the manufacturer) might just release a configuration for say a PRO-96 that would enable it to do ProVoice.

[Voyager]

As far as what voyager said about ProVoice, I agree; but I think what might happen is that because most radios are software configured, someone (Not the manufacturer) might just release a configuration for say a PRO-96 that would enable it to do ProVoice.

<snipped by author> AKA... OOOPS! :oops:

[Thayne]

I guess I don't follow you about LTR. ProVoice is just EDACS with a proprietary IMBE implementation, right?? I don't thnk LTR is involved. Of course ESK will throw off any any scanner, but ETRUNK can be easily modified to follow it.

[N_Jay]

ProVoice is IMBE; but a different "Flavor" than APCO-25. Believe me it has been decoded with A PC, but nobody cares to get sued, so we might as well leave it at that. I am sure if money could be made a scanner will come out for it--

If Mo keeps his shoes on I will be sure to ration the Coronas :lol:

Ahh okay. I was always under the impression that IMBE is APCO25, and provoice was just another kind of digital, not another kind of IMBE.

What's with you and the coronas. Besides I'm not one for alcoholic beverages (I've tasted for religious ceremonies). I'm underage anyways :D

Didn't we go through this in anothet thread. :evil:

A digital system is defined by its;
vocoder family,
vocoder speed,
Vocoder version (sometimes),
Channel Coding,
and a few other atributes.

Not just one think like IMBE (vocoder family)

Go to the TIA online page and look at the number of individual specifications that make up P25! :twisted:

[Voyager]

I guess I don't follow you about LTR. ProVoice is just EDACS with a proprietary IMBE implementation, right?? I don't thnk LTR is involved. Of course ESK will throw off any any scanner, but ETRUNK can be easily modified to follow it.

Ooops! I confused LTR and EDACS.

So, yes, I would agree that a hack is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Joe M.

[blantonl]

Just to clarify.

ProVoice and APCO-25 use the EXACT SAME IMBE VOCODER. The same one. It works the same. The license is the same. It is the same vocoder. Did I mention that they are the same vocoder? It is the same.

The differences between the two digital voice formats is how the information is transmitted over the air (modulated).

The vocoder does nothing more than convert analog audio into a compressed stream of 1s and 0s. That SAME PROCESS happens for P25 systems, and for ProVoice systems. However, those 1s and 0s must be transmitted over the air. This is where the difference between the P25 standard and ProVoice differ.

MA/COM believes they have the superior solution to transmitting the vocoder information over the air. Their solution for doing this is proprietary. The Project 25 standard believes they have the superior solution -- their standard is there for all to see in the TIA documents.

[blantonl]

Ooops! I confused LTR and EDACS.

So, yes, I would agree that a hack is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Joe M.

There is already a version of etrunker that supports esk. It is available in the downloads section of this site.

T4win also already supports ESK.

So not only is it possible, and like, it is available.

[N_Jay]

Just to clarify.

ProVoice and APCO-25 use the EXACT SAME IMBE VOCODER. The same one. It works the same. The license is the same. It is the same vocoder. Did I mention that they are the same vocoder? It is the same.

The differences between the two digital voice formats is how the information is transmitted over the air (modulated).

The vocoder does nothing more than convert analog audio into a compressed stream of 1s and 0s. That SAME PROCESS happens for P25 systems, and for ProVoice systems. However, those 1s and 0s must be transmitted over the air. This is where the difference between the P25 standard and ProVoice differ.

MA/COM believes they have the superior solution to transmitting the vocoder information over the air. Their solution for doing this is proprietary. The Project 25 standard believes they have the superior solution -- their standard is there for all to see in the TIA documents.

Interesting. You sure? Not doubting you, just would lik eto know where to find the info.

As for the differences in both channel coding and modulation, yes you are right.

[Voyager]

Ooops! I confused LTR and EDACS.

So, yes, I would agree that a hack is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Joe M.

There is already a version of etrunker that supports esk. It is available in the downloads section of this site.

T4win also already supports ESK.

So not only is it possible, and like, it is available.

The discussion was about a hack for the PRO-96 to receive it. That is possible, but most definitley not currently available.

Joe M.

[Thayne]

What is the best way to let a cat out of a bag?

Shake it out, or let it crawl out by itself?

[milf]

LOL! Depending how big the cat is..... BIG CAT,.. set the bag down and walk quickly away! I couldn't resist after sitting here with my nieces and watching animal planet and that CRAZYYYYYYYYYYY Steve-O!

[precoislen]

The admins of sanantoniofire.org have updated the website to reflect the scanner issues discussed in the start of this thread.