Grand Canyon National Park Unit Designators

[Exsmokey]

Does anyone know the unit designator system for this park? I've been listening to the great feed the kd7ckq provides for the park.

In one day of listening I think I've figured out the following call signs:

Sierra = South Rim District
November = North Rim District
Canyon = Inner Canyon District

I would bet the above is accurate based on the traffic content. The information below is a little bit more sketchy.

Ranger 1, 2, 3, 4 = District Rangers for each district or Chief Ranger's staff.

River 1 = River patrols, although rangers patrolling the river don't get into the repeaters much, with the exception of parts of Marble Canyon (Desert View Repeater) and within the range of the Hopi and Yavapai Point repeaters. I don't remember the locations of all the repeaters and what nets are carried on each.

India = Indian Springs Ranger Station Ranger

Papa = Phantom Ranch Ranger Station Ranger

Echo = Is there a East District? When I lived in Flagstaff and worked on the Kaibab National Forest in the 70's there were only three districts, South Rim, Inner Canyon, and North Rim.

Lima = Just heard Lima 4 this morning en route to Flagstaff and I can't guess what Lima might be referring to.

When I worked on the Kaibab NF the park had a number based designator system. About 10 years ago Yosemite NP changed from a numerical system to one similar to the above for the protection (law enforcement) rangers, but left the numerical system in place for interpretation, resource managment, and maintenance.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

[kd7ckq]

>>Copy of PM sent to Exsmokey; added a few<<

I have the Right Channel listening to Law Net only. The Left Channel is everyone else, Med Net, Fire Net, Admin Net, SAR Net, Various Kaibab N.F. Channels, Various Coco. N.F. Channels, Xanterra Fire & Security Net, Shuttle Busses, DPS Dist. #2 GCN repeater, and a couple of Med Evacs channels.
Papa units = Paramedics
Echo units = EMT's
Sierra units = South Rim Units
November units = North Rim Units
Tango units = Traffic Enforcement units
Lima = ? Still trying to figure this one out.
Kilo = ? Kaibab units ?
Victor = ?



There are others but, I can't remember them right now.

[radioprescott]

The Grand Canyon Regional Communications Center may dispatch for the Northern Arizona Park Service group. I have heard Sunset Crater/Wupatki and Walnut Canyon units on 166.300, which also simulcasts GCP traffic. It could be that some of the unidentified designators are these units.

Also Kd7ckq can you post the freqs of the channels you are scanning.

[mm]

I think that the Lima = LEO units

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by mm

I think that the Lima = LEO units

The unit designators listed above are all for protection rangers (law enforcement officers) so the Sierra units, the November units, and such are all LEO's. Lima has to mean something else.

The Echo and Papa designators now make more sense with what I'm hearing. The India unit traffic suggested that he was at Indian Gardens, but I could be wrong on that one. The Ranger 1-4 designators are used by people who seem to be in meetings a lot, so as I said before they have to be the Chief Ranger's Staff. I think the District Rangers must have designators such as Sierra 1, November 1, etc.

The next thing to figure out is what the number series mean. Sierra 13 means what? A geographical assignment?

At Yosemite there are also Hotel units and that designator is for Yosemite Valley horse patrols. The Valley gets very concentrated use, probably more dense than the South Rim of the Canyon, although Grand Canyon has a challenge on the South Rim. In Yosemite horse patrols are needed as trying to get around in a vehicle can be difficult due to heavy traffic. Rangers on horse patrol can spot possible car burglars, food left in sight in vehicles, and bear problems better than foot and vehicle patrols can. I heard a unit call in service on horseback today, but the he used the Sierra designator.

[kd7ckq]

I heard one time that the Lima units could be Loss & Injury Prevention (Safety) units. What they do, and who they are, dunno. I never could confirm this with anyone.
I am considering taking Xanterra Shuttle Busses off the feed. Sometimes they can get a little busy and take over the radio when there is traffic on Med and Fire/SAR Nets. Although, when things happen, the shuttle busses are usually the ones to report it.

[radioprescott]

Originally Posted by kd7ckq

I have the Right Channel listening to Law Net only. The Left Channel is everyone else, Med Net, Fire Net, Admin Net, SAR Net, Various Kaibab N.F. Channels, Various Coco. N.F. Channels, Xanterra Fire & Security Net, Shuttle Busses, DPS Dist. #2 GCN repeater, and a couple of Med Evacs channels.

May I suggest putting GCP traffic on one channel and the rest on the other. That way we could listen to GCP without interruptions.

Originally Posted by kd7ckq

I am considering taking Xanterra Shuttle Busses off the feed. Sometimes they can get a little busy and take over the radio when there is traffic on Med and Fire/SAR Nets. Although, when things happen, the shuttle busses are usually the ones to report it.

I second that suggeston

[kd7ckq]

Originally Posted by radioprescott

May I suggest putting GCP traffic on one channel and the rest on the other. That way we could listen to GCP without interruptions.

Law Net carries the bulk of what happens in the park. I would say about 70% or so of the radio traffic regarding the park is handled on Law Net. That is why it gets it own channel. MED NET and FIRE / SAR NET are not always that busy. The same goes with ADMIN NET.
If I put all of the Grand Canyon park freq. on one channel, there would be alot of missed calls on Law Net. As the the other channels might be busy during critical calls and pages. The Kaibab and Coco. N.F. channels are not that busy as I am in range of only a few of those repeaters. Besides, my focus is on Grand Canyon and not so much Kaibab and Coconino. I do appreciate the input as it helps fine tune the feed. Xanterra Shuttle Busses will be taken off later today.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by kd7ckq

I heard one time that the Lima units could be Loss & Injury Prevention (Safety) units. What they do, and who they are, dunno. I never could confirm this with anyone.
I am considering taking Xanterra Shuttle Busses off the feed. Sometimes they can get a little busy and take over the radio when there is traffic on Med and Fire/SAR Nets. Although, when things happen, the shuttle busses are usually the ones to report it.

Your observation in relation to the Lima units makes sense. I heard one of these units call a Sierra unit regarding the location of a vehicle accident. Another went in service en route Flagstaff.

What Lima units do is probably similar to one of several ancillary duties I had on my last Forest Service assignment. I was called an accident and claims investigator. I was on call to do this for large incidents such as wildland fires where structures were destroyed, where the Forest Service was the lead or sole agency managing the incident. Private property owners (inholdings or those on the boundary of an NF) sue the deep pockets of the federal government for many things in relation to fires, floods, landslides, and the like. Accident/claims investigators document the damage and gather information about the circumstances so that the federal government can make a decision as to denying or accepting the claim.

I have some incredible stories of what people will file claims for. They would all be too lengthy for this post, but my reaction to most of them is one of surprise (maybe even shock) and puzzlement.

Motor vehicle accidents and personal injury accidents are investigated as well. People sue for trip and falls and some aspect of facility maintenance (roads, bridges, restrooms, fire rings, tree stumps, vehicle barricades, lack of enforcement for speed limits, extended delays in initiating search and rescues and medical responses, the performance of EMTs/paramedics, da, da, da, da, da.). The reason I was trained and certified is that I supervised the operation and maintenance of the type of facilities I listed above. I also had the most litigated recreation site on all the National Forests in California, with the exception of the four southern California National Forests. I worked on one of the most heavily used ranger districts in the National Forest system and with that more claims are filed. I had to document the condition of the facility and investigate the causes of the accident. I wrote up reports, had to appear in federal district court and was deposed frequently.

The results of these claims can involve the personal liability of each employee. Someone may sue employees, after their claim is denied, for willful negligence, improper conduct, not following policy, and a number of other things. If you are found to have done these things, the federal government may no longer defend you, essentially becoming a third party only. For that reason many employees carry large sum personal liability insurance policies that cover their actions at work.

The claims workload can overwhelm law enforcement personnel to the point they are spending far too much time behind a desk composing reports, being in depositions, appearing in court, and another seemingly endless set of tasks. If this situation occurs then law enforcement cannot respond as well, a situation that can cause additional claims to be filed.

A place like Grand Canyon must have lots of claims. It makes sense that they have to have full time accident/claims investigators. They probably handle safety tasks that would relate to preventing claims. In that capacity they have to be out and about.

Sorry to be so long winded, but this would be my best estimation of what a Lima unit's duties might be. Managing public lands is far more complicated than most people realize. My eyes were really opened the first couple of years into my USFS career.

[mm]

I think I was wrong and you are correct, right after I posted my thoughts on the Lima unit designators being Forest Svc. Law Enforcement, LEO, I heard a Sierra unit handing out a citation so it seems that unlike Prescott Ntl forest which has a seperate LEO channel and seperate LEO units different from the rangers, the Grand Canyon doesn't seem to operate like this.

I also heard a Lima unit enroute to Flagstaff for some type of meeting but nothing else.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by mm

I think I was wrong and you are correct, right after I posted my thoughts on the Lima unit designators being Forest Svc. Law Enforcement, LEO, I heard a Sierra unit handing out a citation so it seems that unlike Prescott Ntl forest which has a seperate LEO channel and seperate LEO units different from the rangers, the Grand Canyon doesn't seem to operate like this.

I also heard a Lima unit enroute to Flagstaff for some type of meeting but nothing else.

Radio designators for Forest Service LEO's vary greatly between different Forest Service Regions (a geographically based line organization in the USFS). The Forest Service also differs on who they call "rangers." In the Park Service, many of the employees that have on the ground duties, as well as the management staff, are classified as "GS-025", which has an occupational title of "Park Ranger." GS stands for 'general schedule," which includes most federal employees and occupational series. Park Rangers work in law enforcement (Visitor and Resource Protection), resource management, interpretive services, and a few of the permanent supervisory staff in fire management. Their working titles, as opposed to their working titles, can include fire management officer, fie ecologist, developed sites supervisor, and others. Then there are foresters, forestry technicians and such that work in other positions such as hazard tree managers, fire ecologists, vegetation managers, campground maintenance, fuels crew member, fire crew member, helitack supervisor, and forestry crew member. They all have the same uniform and the same badge, with the exception of protection rangers, who have to wear an individually numbered law enforcement badge. Many do not wear the uniform such as forestry and fire crew members and others.

In the Forest Service there is a wide variety of occupational series involved. Foresters and forestry technicians are the most common occupational series. I was both a forestry technician in my early years and later was a forester for he majority of my career. I had various job titles such as Recreation and Lands Officer (assistant district ranger for those functions), developed sites supervisor (recreation sites), Frontcounty recreation supervisor, assistant Recreation and Lands Officer, Fire Prevention Technician, and Fire Prevention Officer. I wore the same uniform as everyone does, with the exception of the law enforcement officers that have the FS patch on the left shoulder (like everyone else), a right shoulder patch with the words "Forest Service Enforcement," and a individually numbered law enforcement badge.

The Forest Service title of "Ranger" is assigned to District Rangers, the line officers in charge of all functions of a ranger district, which are geographical units of a National Forest. There are only 500 or so of these. They are mostly desk jockeys and in meetings constantly. Some jobs are titled "GS-062 Forestry Technician (Wilderness Ranger)." Wilderness rangers are almost all seasonals. The term is also used for "GS-062 Forestry Technician (Off Highway Vehicle Ranger") or OHV Ranger for short.

So when you call a person "ranger" it is different in each agency and may not reflect the occupational series or position title that person works in. In the Forest Service the District Rangers want to be the only employees referred to as a "ranger." The National Park Service has "District Rangers" as well, but they work in protection only, so they don't have the multi functional responsibility that Forest Service District Rangers have, thus they are in the field more often. Since the NPS employees more people in the "Park Ranger" occupational series they are more likely to refer to themselves as "ranger."

Just to confuse you a little bit more, the Park Service does not allow any employee, other than what they call a "commissioned law enforcement officer" to perform any law enforcement, including parking tickets. Like Forest Service LEO's they must attend the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) in Gylnco, Georgia. Both agency's potential LEO's attend the same course and are in the same graduating class. The Forest Service differs from the Park Service in this regard. They have far fewer LEO's per land area than the Park Service, usually one per Ranger District. Because of this they have the "Forest Protection Officer" program. FPO's do not carry firearms or other defensive equipment, cannot make vehicle stops, but can write citations for any offense in the Forest Service portion of the Code of Federal Regulations. They are not permitted to perform law enforcement duties at night, except with a full LEO, and are supposed to back out of situations where firearms are present or people are under the influence of alcohol. Firearms are nearly everywhere during hunting season and the policy regarding firearms is impossible to follow. I was an FPO and had the highest law enforcement count (citations, written warnings, and incident reports on the Inyo National Forest) of any officer (FPO or LEO) on the Inyo National Forest. This was due to the nature of my job and the very heavy recreation use on the Mammoth Ranger District where I worked. I was always a strongly field oriented employee, which gave me the opportunity to find all sorts of people and incidents that others did not have the opportunity to enjoy, most especially foresters.

So that is the reason you perceive a difference between what people are called at Grand Canyon National Park and the Prescott National Forest. I've addressed that perception in this post.

Generally, we don't tell anyone the above and if in uniform are all used to answering with a "how can I help you" when someone says "Hey, Ranger."

By the way, a person can only be classified as a forester when they hold a Bachelor of Science Degree in Forestry. I believe that people can occupy Park Ranger jobs after getting a natural resource degree. or can work a very long time and enter the Park Ranger series based on experience. The last time I looked it was very difficult for a non-degree person to achieve that.

Now you have learned your ration of esoteric information for the day.

[Exsmokey]

I hadn't heard that the Prescott NF was using a separate law enforcement net. Are they on the same net as fire? The Prescott is listed in my information as having a Forest Net, and another called "Service Net," "Admin Net," or "Fire Net." I do not recall which. Some Forests in California have designated their second net as "Emergency Net" or "Fire/Law Enforcement Net." If the Prescott is using a third net for law enforcement I would love to know the frequencies.

EDIT I did not explain the postion titles and job series in the BLM and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The post was long enough without doing so. .

[kd7ckq]

I forgot to add, If your using WinAmp, you'll get alpha tags for the left channel. It makes it easier to see who the scanner is stopped on the left channel. Right channel is always Law Net.

[Exsmokey]

I was just reading an environmental assessment prepared by the NPS at Grand Canyon. It has two maps, existing repeater sites, and proposed repeater sites. There is a narrative of the existing situation as of May 2007. It discusses the four nets as we know them, plus a tactical net which sounds like it is more than a mobile to mobile situation. Anyone have anything on this?

And CKQ, thanks for the heads up on the alpha tagging. I normally minimize my audio players and may not have noticed for quite some time.

[kd7ckq]

I don't think I have that one.
>>SNIP<<

[radioprescott]

Smokey:

PNF has 2 active repeated nets: Forest Net on 168.175 and Fire Net on 172.225. I am not aware of any other repeated nets.

There is traffic on what has been called the LEO Net of 168.025, but its not repeated and is mainly local car-to-car traffic. I haven't heard dispatcher traffic on this freq.

Flight Following, Ground Tacs and Initial Attack freqs are as posted on RR, SWFD 10th edition and SWCC Mob Guide.

Originally Posted by Exsmokey

I hadn't heard that the Prescott NF was using a separate law enforcement net. Are they on the same net as fire? The Prescott is listed in my information as having a Forest Net, and another called "Service Net," "Admin Net," or "Fire Net." I do not recall which. Some Forests in California have designated their second net as "Emergency Net" or "Fire/Law Enforcement Net." If the Prescott is using a third net for law enforcement I would love to know the frequencies.

EDIT I did not explain the postion titles and job series in the BLM and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The post was long enough without doing so. .

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by radioprescott

Smokey:

PNF has 2 active repeated nets: Forest Net on 168.175 and Fire Net on 172.225. I am not aware of any other repeated nets.

There is traffic on what has been called the LEO Net of 168.025, but its not repeated and is mainly local car-to-car traffic. I haven't heard dispatcher traffic on this freq.

Flight Following, Ground Tacs and Initial Attack freqs are as posted on RR, SWFD 10th edition and SWCC Mob Guide.

The Forest Service national law enforcement tactical frequency is 168.025. In Califronia there is a law enforcment repeater net used on some Forests on a frequency of 166.125. I don't have the 10th edition yet, however, the tacs, IA and NIFC freqeuencies are well known and available from dozens of sources.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by kd7ckq

Law Net carries the bulk of what happens in the park. I would say about 70% or so of the radio traffic regarding the park is handled on Law Net. That is why it gets it own channel. MED NET and FIRE / SAR NET are not always that busy. The same goes with ADMIN NET.

I want to verify that fire and SAR's are on the same net. Reading all the posts above does not make that clear. The left side just stopped on a channel and it was labeled with "Helo/SAR" only. It makes more sense if they had a separate SAR net as "Williams" dispatches all fire related traffic and I would imagine that "Dispatch" needs to work the SAR's as those are the responsibility of the Protection Division.

Now I just heard Williams getting the morning fire resource lineup from GCNP on the net labeled "Helo/SAR". So this would suggest "Helo/SAR" is actually the Fire Net.

Comments?

[radioprescott]

Originally Posted by Exsmokey

Now I just heard Williams getting the morning fire resource lineup from GCNP on the net labeled "Helo/SAR". So this would suggest "Helo/SAR" is actually the Fire Net.

I was just reading an environmental assessment prepared by the NPS at Grand Canyon.

This is what I have gleaned from several sources, scanner trips to GNP, and based upon the data provided in the report Exsmokey cited. Please correct me if I am wrong.

LE: 164.7250 out 163.1500 in
FIRE: 172.5750 out 169.6750 in
MEDICAL: 172.4500 out 171.7500 in
ADMIN: 170.0500 out 167.1500 in
TAC [No freq date but the net is identified in the report]

I hear the Fire Net input (169.675) all over central Yavapai County. It has been helicopter flight following, "morning reports" and such. I would propose it is more properly the wildland fire net.

[kd7ckq]

Originally Posted by Exsmokey

Now I just heard Williams getting the morning fire resource lineup from GCNP on the net labeled "Helo/SAR". So this would suggest "Helo/SAR" is actually the Fire Net.

Comments?

Yes, it is wrong in the file that generates the alpha labels. I used a very old text file to make the file. I need to take some time and go in and change it. "Helo/SAR" should actually be labeled "Fire Net" or "Fire / SAR Net" as the Helo's use "Fire Net" only.
As for channel maps and freq's, I all my stuff is in the SWFD.