Pima County to go Motorola P25 Phase II

2wayfreq · #1 (**permalink**) 10-14-2009, 11:49 AM

FYI,
From Radio Resource Magazine:

Motorola Signs P25 Phase 2 Contract in Arizona (10/7/09)
Pima County, Ariz., and Motorola signed a contract to provide Project 25 (P25) Phase 2 TDMA technology to address the County's regional communications needs. The implementation is for the Pima County Wireless Integrated Network (PCWIN) to achieve high-level interoperability and increase coverage and capabilities to enhance officer safety.

In May 2004, county voters approved bond funding for the development of a regional communications system, capable of supporting all public-safety agencies in Pima County. Supplemental funding from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) will also be used for the network. The city of Tucson, Ariz., police and fire departments are included on the network.

"Pima County's selection of a Motorola P25 Phase 2 voice radio system will provide a modern regional, technically advanced communications solution to meet the requirements specified by our police and fire first responders for the foreseeable future," said Clarence Dupnik, Pima County Sheriff. "The PCWIN system will provide on-demand interagency interoperability for improved coordination of public safety services and first responder safety. It will enhance Pima County's public safety service capabilities for many years to come."

P25 Phase 2 employs TDMA multiplexing technology, which fits more talk paths into the same number of radio channels. The P25 Phase 2 trunked standard is targeted for publication in the second half of 2010. In addition to PCWIN, Motorola has entered into six definitive contracts to deliver the Project 25 Phase 2 TDMA technology. The contracts represent more than $250 million in customer investments during the next several years. Other Phase 2 customers include the city of Houston; Woodbridge, N.J.; and Apopka, Fla.

ShawnCowden · #2 (**permalink**) 10-14-2009, 02:34 PM

does this mean we need new scanners ?

N_Jay · #3 (**permalink**) 10-14-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnCowden

does this mean we need new scanners ?

Only if you want to listen.

Of course with a large installed base of subscribers, I would bet there will be plenty of Phase 1 traffic to keep you busy for a while. (at least until the scanners become available.)

ShawnCowden · #4 (**permalink**) 10-14-2009, 11:08 PM

so do they just firm wire their radios or do they get new radios also ?

N_Jay · #5 (**permalink**) 10-15-2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnCowden

so do they just firm wire their radios or do they get new radios also ?

"firm wire"?

ICP963 · #6 (**permalink**) 10-15-2009, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N_Jay

"firm wire"?

I think he meant "FIRMWARE", and something tells me that even Moneyrolla will not be able to do a firmware update to give their radios TDMA capability.

This is a disturbing development as TDMA is a lot like cellular traffic and if it is too close the FCC may not allow scanners to track it. Lets hope that is not the case.

N_Jay · #7 (**permalink**) 10-15-2009, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICP963

I think he meant "FIRMWARE", and something tells me that even Moneyrolla will not be able to do a firmware update to give their radios TDMA capability.

Radios designed to handle TDMA (APX, and maybe a few Harris/Tyco, etc.) should be upgradable.
Radios never designed to do TDMA (no matter what vendor) will most likeely not be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICP963

This is a disturbing development as TDMA is a lot like cellular traffic and if it is too close the FCC may not allow scanners to track it. Lets hope that is not the case.

Hu?
The FCC restrictions are concerning TELEPHONE communications, where the CONSUMER has an expectation of privacy.
It has NOTHING to do with the technology.
That aside, TDMA in the case of P25 is no closer to cellular than P25 was to AMPS cellular.

ShawnCowden · #8 (**permalink**) 10-17-2009, 12:16 AM

TDMA isnt on cell anyhow anymore its just GSM or CDMA AMPS is even done away with

AZScanner · #9 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 04:26 PM

Holy Christmas, you think digital scanners suck now, just wait until you have to decode TDMA. As they say in the mafia "Fuggehdaboutit". And let's not even get started on how bad that will suck for the people that actually have to use it. There's a reason why cell providers largely use CDMA or GSM - TDMA SUCKS!!

(shakes head) TDMA? TDMA??? Good God in Heaven.

-AZ

N_Jay · #10 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnCowden

TDMA isnt on cell anyhow anymore its just GSM or CDMA AMPS is even done away with

GSM is TDMA.

N_Jay · #11 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZScanner

Holy Christmas, you think digital scanners suck now, just wait until you have to decode TDMA.

Wondering how you figure? (I do agree there will be some greater challenges, mostly with regard to multiple site systems not TDMA specifically.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZScanner

As they say in the mafia "Fuggehdaboutit". And let's not even get started on how bad that will suck for the people that actually have to use it.

Again, you seem to be drawing conclusions without explaining why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZScanner

There's a reason why cell providers largely use CDMA or GSM -

Hu???

GSM is TDMA.
TDMA cellular (IS136) did not make it because it was unable to compete on costs and features against GSM due to market size.
CDMA (and UMTS) have developed to provide greater throughput and flexibility than TDMA based protocols to support cellular uses (Many users with a relative few using high bandwidth in a very busty manner.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZScanner

TDMA SUCKS!!

Wrong.

You really need to learn a little more before forming such strong opinions.

cellphone · #12 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 09:24 PM

I think the main point that AZScanner conveys is that $500 scanner has issues decoding audio on a P25 Simulcast system. Add the additional complexity of TDMA, and we cannot expect to pay $500 for something that does well at decoding P25 Phase II.

N_Jay · #13 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellphone

I think the main point that AZScanner conveys is that $500 scanner has issues decoding audio on a P25 Simulcast system. Add the additional complexity of TDMA, and we cannot expect to pay $500 for something that does well at decoding P25 Phase II.

I would trust that the scanner companies should have no trouble designing a receiver capable of receiving P25 Phase 2 TDMA as well as you receive P25 Phase 1 today.
It will take a slightly different receiver, and a little more processor power, but not a hugs problem.
Simulcast will get a little worse since the Baud rate is going up.
I would guess that a lot of agencies may move from simulcast to multi-site systems, but we will have to wait and see.

AZScanner · #14 (**permalink**) 10-20-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N_Jay

Huh???

GSM is TDMA.
TDMA cellular (IS136) did not make it because it was unable to compete on costs and features against GSM due to market size.

No. TDMA lost out to GSM because GSM combines TDMA with Frequency Hopping and wideband transmission to reduce interference. Is P25 PII GSM? No. It's narrowband TDMA. Therefore it will suck. All it takes is for the radio to get out of phase with the system and the damn thing's a brick for several seconds, just like yesteryears TDMA phones (remember all those dropped calls? Yeah - it'll work like that).

Quote:

Originally Posted by N_Jay

Wrong.

You really need to learn a little more before forming such strong opinions.

Yeah I guess previous experience working in the cellular industry doesn't count. I guess I must be dumb.

As Cellphone said, today's scanners struggle with Phase I decoding. Add TDMA to the mix and you can forget it - and don't count on tomorrow's digitals with this capability being $500. Try $700, or more - for a radio that will suck and take 2-3 years to perfect (at $700 for each attempt).

Hopefully Phoenix will stay phase I for a while - they've invested millions in this current system and money's a bit tight to scrap it all in favor of the next big thing. Hopefully....

-AZ

N_Jay · #15 (**permalink**) 10-20-2009, 02:42 PM

First, GSM is TDMA

The TDMA cellular you are referring to was IS-54 evolved to IS-136.
Yes, call drops weer common early on for lots of reasons, but by the latter IS0136 systems they were all but resolved. (and were usually coverage and handoff issues, not timing issues).

As for P25 phase 2, give one thing that makes you think it carries any of the same issues as IS-54/IS-136 (Other than your association with the term "TDMA"?

Have MotoTRBO users been complaining of this problem since you think it is endemic of TDMA? Maybe TETRA users? Maybe iDEN users?
(or maybe you don't know everything you "KNOW"?)

I know lots of people who "worked" in the cellular industry. Some knew a lot. Others understood a lot.
A few Knew and understood a lot.
And there were plenty that did not know much and understood less.

As for the future pricing of a product, my guess (and other than maybe UPMan, no one has an knowledge) is that they will be priced very close to the introduction price of the first generation P25 scanners.
And yes, they will not be perfect at first and will improve.
DO you have suggestions as to how to fix that with any new product, because then you are smarter than a whole lot of product managers I know from many markets.

As for the timing, since the article says they signed the contract, I would guess 2 to 3 years for the infrastructure. Then we will see about subscriber transition (as I stated earlier in this thread.).
Of course you "local" knowledge may trump my guess on timing.

scannerfreak · #16 (**permalink**) 10-20-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N_Jay

First, GSM is TDMA

The TDMA cellular you are referring to was IS-54 evolved to IS-136.
Yes, call drops weer common early on for lots of reasons, but by the latter IS0136 systems they were all but resolved. (and were usually coverage and handoff issues, not timing issues).

*snipped*

.

*sigh* If only it could always be Jekyll and never Hyde

FLANO · #17 (**permalink**) 10-31-2009, 02:07 PM

For those of you who had the old PCWIN TRS entry bookmarked, I set it to depreciated as it appears it won't be what we thought. We'll have to wait and see what the frequency assignments will be and more

BTW, Uniden and GRE, I'm in a great location and I'm available to beta test a TDMA scanner for you

Raccon · #18 (**permalink**) 11-01-2009, 11:45 PM

All this talk about 'TDMA this' 'TDMA that' is all useless because how good or bad it is depends on the modulation used, i.e. TDMA in GSM is not the same as TDMA in IS0136 or TDMA in P25, which also means scanners would need to support the modulation of each TDMA system you want to listen to.

rdale · #19 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 12:26 AM

Do scanners need to support GSM or IS0136? Wouldn't P25 support be all that's needed?

N_Jay · #20 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raccon

All this talk about 'TDMA this' 'TDMA that' is all useless because how good or bad it is depends on the modulation used, i.e. TDMA in GSM is not the same as TDMA in IS0136 or TDMA in P25, which also means scanners would need to support the modulation of each TDMA system you want to listen to.

It's more than just the modulation, but at least you get it.