Phoenix PD Encrypted HOT calls

[cellphone]

It looks like there are some changes on how Phoenix PD is handling hot traffic today.

Listening today, 300 is working hot traffic on C13 (encrypted). 400 is working hot traffic on C12 (encrypted). 500 is working hot traffic on C5 (now encrypted). 800 is working hot traffic on C8 (now encrypted).

I am in Ahwatukee and monitor Simulcast C, so I do not receive 200, 600, 700, or 900 to confirm what they are doing.

[AZScanner]

Aw hell no, not again!

Let's hope it's not a permanent change if so (yeah right, wishful thinking I'm sure). I will turn on the scanner and see what's happening on Simulcast A when I get home in a few minutes from now.

If it is encrypted now, that will seriously SUCK. Let's all hope it's a glitch or something that gets fixed. I know the news media raised hell last time this happened.

-AZ

[AZScanner]

Well it seems the C Deck channels are indeed encrypted. I wonder what the hell brought this on?

-AZ

[chris480]

So this has happened before? How long did it take for them to fix it last time? I think it sucks they can do that. I understand foe swat etc but not just hot traffic that should be public knowledge and the public should have the right to listen. I bet itsthat new police chief comming in trying to do apower trip or something. I hope someone gets it back to the way it was. Or listenings going to suck now. And be boring!

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

I can confirm that C-5 is encrypted. That's all I've heard so far. My current location near 43rd and Northern Aves has severe interference to the 700 & 800 MHz bands. Possibly due to a cell tower on the SE corner, but I don't know for sure the source.

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

900 put out a hot call a little bit ago, which switched to C-10. 300 just put one out, but I didn't catch the C-deck due to unintelligibility.
chrisreston, all of C-deck was originally encrypted, then C-4 through C-9 went clear. C-2 & C-3 were added...

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

(along with A-2/B-2/A-3/B-3) when those 2 precincts were opened. (There's also an A-/B-/C-1 on 2812/2809/2806, and I have heard encryption on B-1 once.)

[chris480]

So I wonder why all is C went enc again? What made them decide to undo it last time? I hear the new chief is hard and won't bend to the media or public on issues. A and B are boring lol, we need to all come together and try and get this changed backed!

[Phoenix805]

why I heard encrypted traffic on C-9 (900) last night. I wasn't paying a lot of attention, I thought maybe a radio had 'gone digital' like they often say.

MIB - I'm at 43 Ave & Northern (closer to Orangewood) and I don't have any 700-800 interference problems. You're right, it could be that cell tower, but I drive by it all the time and haven't had any problems.

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

I have to use the attenuator in order to receive anything. Without it, there's a high pitched whine on top of the CC's throughout the 700 & 800 bands, preventing a decent lock. I'm using a PSR-500 with the RS 800MHz duckie antenna.

[AZScanner]

Without revealing too much, I did some asking around on this and heard back from someone who is "in the know". The encryption is here to stay for the foreseeable future, thanks to our local media. We may get the C-Decks back some day, but probably not. Sorry gang, but at least now we know.

-AZ

[chris480]

I guess the new police chief does not want to work with the local media or public like the old police chief vowed to do saying that the public and media should have the right to listen and know what is going on in there community especially since the community pays the salaries of the department.

[chris480]

This is a great article on why encryption for everyday traffic is a bad idea! Makes some very good points, maybe we can get this over to someone with some decision power at the PHX PD or Mayors office.

Police Radio Encryption: Not Secure, A Transparency Failure, A Public Safety Nightmare | The Cardinal

[Phoenix805]

Originally Posted by KB7MIB

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

I have to use the attenuator in order to receive anything. Without it, there's a high pitched whine on top of the CC's throughout the 700 & 800 bands, preventing a decent lock. I'm using a PSR-500 with the RS 800MHz duckie antenna.

Strange, I have the same radio but I'm still using the original sock rubber duckie that came with it.

[AZScanner]

Originally Posted by chrisreston

This is a great article on why encryption for everyday traffic is a bad idea! Makes some very good points, maybe we can get this over to someone with some decision power at the PHX PD or Mayors office.

Police Radio Encryption: Not Secure, A Transparency Failure, A Public Safety Nightmare | The Cardinal

I've read the paper this article is referring to (along with a couple of others) that discuss in relative detail the vulnerabilities that exist in P25 systems, and they are very real and could be exploited by well funded organized criminals or worse, a terrorist organization (and if you think the Mexican Mafia or Al Qaeda isn't well funded and organized, think again). The only reason they don't exploit these weaknesses is because they don't need to. If that need ever arises though, I don't see any real reason why they wouldn't, and that is something that should be addressed. These are after all, public safety radio systems and if they fail, it's not just the first responders that are in danger - we all are.

That being said, there is an equally well thought out rebuttal to this article that explains why a standard encrypted P25 radio system is "secure enough" and the idea of some average-joe criminal making use of these vulnerabilities is highly unlikely. I tend to agree. We also have ourselves to blame for making it so easy for some dumb crook to listen in on just about any smartphone for free. There have been instances of crooks using the scanner feeds here on RR to evade the police. Perhaps a 10 minute delay should be built into PD streams to prevent this sort of thing or at least discourage criminals from using the scanner streams to avoid the police. I think that's a worthwhile suggestion to Lindsay before we all get a bad rap for "helping the bad guys". Any future stream that I put on RR will have such a delay built in at my end, regardless. I think that's the responsible thing to do.

I think eventually a mandate will come down from the federal level that all police radio traffic must be encrypted by law. If and when that day comes, then perhaps these known vulnerabilities will be of use to those of us who want to accept the challenge of being able to listen in anyway. I only hope that anyone who decides to pursue that path keeps the ability to do that to themselves, not just for the future of the hobby but for the safety of the officers we all enjoy listening to.

Sure, I'm sad to see the C-deck talkgroups go encrypted but there's still plenty to listen to that's in the clear, for now. I say we just enjoy what we can and not rock the boat. A strongly worded letter to the Mayor or the Chief of Police would more likely result in scanner listeners being shut out entirely than restore our ability to monitor these talkgroups. I think we tend to forget that being able to listen in isn't a right - it's a privilege. And it's a privilege that has, apparently, been abused. This should serve as fair warning to all scanner listeners that it's up to us to protect our hobby and the best way to do that is to be good stewards of the ability to monitor our local public safety agences and do what we can to ensure that ability doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

-AZ

[JoeyC]

For years I have listened to news media radio chatter between field reporters and the studio and news directors. They listen to the same channels and talkgroups that I hear on my scanners, yet their interpretations and impressions of what they hear seem to be light years apart from what I get out of listening. The police will state something over the air, and the (overly excitable) news folks will undoubtedly jumble up what was actually said, then repeat that confusion over their airwaves to the reporters in the streets. Its no wonder there is tension between law enforcement and the news media. I suspect much of this nonsense has to do with getting the most colorful story for the 5 pm news and getting it first.

[Phoenix805]

Bad timing.... 3 PD units going code 3 with the helo in the neighborhood, and I had my scanner on. Last week I would have known what was happening. This week... no idea!

[zerg901]

AZScanner - you want Phoenix to be the next Syria or North Korea?

[AZScanner]

Originally Posted by Phoenix805

Bad timing.... 3 PD units going code 3 with the helo in the neighborhood, and I had my scanner on. Last week I would have known what was happening. This week... no idea!

Actually this was for a foot chase that ended in a perimiter near 32nd street and Cambridge. The whole thing was worked in the clear on A-Deck 5. I heard the whole thing on my scanner just fine.

Originally Posted by zerg901

AZScanner - you want Phoenix to be the next Syria or North Korea?

No, I don't want that which is why all of us (the media and scanner hobbyists) need to tone things down and use some common sense to keep the PPD from locking us out of ALL their talkgroups. Then we really would have the next Syria or South Korea, at least as far as listening to PPD would go.

In other news, sounds like that Dorner guy out in Cali is holed up in a cabin in the mountains and sh** is fixin' to get real. Over 23K listeners on the SBSO feed. Wow! I'm going to go listen in on that for now.

-AZ

[AirScan1]

I give up i just monitoring AZ DPS just as good as phx pd