Mesa PD, other agencies using "ghost cars".

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KB7MIB

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There are new police vehicle graphics (lettering) packages out now, that while they are still reflective at night when your headlights hit them, are much like the subdued unit, rank and US flag patches on service members uniforms.

By putting black or dark grey graphics on a black vehicle; blue graphics on a blue vehicle; or white/silver graphics on a white vehicle, it allows the unit to blend into traffic better.

Here's a pic of a Mesa PD Suburban (if it works):
https://fbcdn-photos-c-a.akamaihd.n..._=1442941581_c94152977b64069eae897d1ad0513660

These new "ghost cars" would fall in between low-profile cars (fully marked, but no light bar) and unmarked cars (no markings or visible lights).

Fox10 has an article about NJSP's new ghost car, and comments from Arizona folks indicated that MCSO, Phoenix PD, at least one agency in the Casa Grande Area (CG? Eloy? Arizona City? PCSO?), and I think one or two other agencies around the state are using them.

I think they're cool, btw. I don't want anyone to think that I was complaining about the ghost cars :)

John
Peoria
 
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kd7eir

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My question is WHY any publicly-funded law enforcement agency feels that they need to SEMI-HIDE from the public.

Police are NOT AN OCCUPYING FORCE, they are PUBLIC SERVANTS. We ARE NOT the enemy, we are their EMPLOYERS!

Either use a fully marked and identifiable vehicle or use a fully undercover vehicle. You are either in an operation where you NEED/SHOULD be identifiable to the public (99% of ALL law enforcement work) or you are in a situation where you NEED/SHOULD be 100% unidentifiable to the public (1% of ALL law enforcement work)

This "ghost car" concept is pure BS!

WHAT, EXACTLY are these agencies trying to HIDE in their daily operations?

This is not a conspiracy theory, this is about law enforcement GETTING IT THROUGH THEIR HEADS THAT THEY SERVE US. Until that happens public trust will continue to erode, and rightfully so.
 
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W8RMH

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I'm not complaining either, but I totally agree with kd7eir. Here in Ohio using anything but a distinctly marked cruiser for traffic enforcement is actually illegal. Fully marked cruisers, especially on the interstates, save more lives as a deterrent than anyone could imagine.

I spent many a days sitting in the median turnaround watching cars slow down on my radar without having to write a book full of tickets (except the occasional idiot going 90 mph).

To me the concept of a "ghost car" as you call it is an oxymoron, like an "unmarked marked car".
 

eaf1956

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My wife was driving in ILLINOIS and said she saw a Car with STATE PATROL painted with what looked like spray paint on the side of the car. I told her I wouldn't pull over and I'd be calling 911 asking for a marked car if they tried to pull me over with a car like that.
 

KB7MIB

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I'm not complaining either, but I totally agree with kd7eir. Here in Ohio using anything but a distinctly marked cruiser for traffic enforcement is actually illegal. Fully marked cruisers, especially on the interstates, save more lives as a deterrent than anyone could imagine.

I spent many a days sitting in the median turnaround watching cars slow down on my radar without having to write a book full of tickets (except the occasional idiot going 90 mph).

To me the concept of a "ghost car" as you call it is an oxymoron, like an "unmarked marked car".

How many of those drivers sped back up once they passed you and felt they were in the clear? I see it when I go on a random long drive. Drivers slow down for a LEO in a travel lane, in the median, or conducting a traffic stop, but speed back up as soon as they clear him/her. Slick tops or what I call "low profile" cars (fully marked sans roof lightbar), unmarked cars (I saw a couple of plain white Silverado crew cabs with squared off camper shells, push bars and several antennas, which were most likely AZ DPS (CVEB?) officers in the median on I-8 while on a random drive from Phoenix to Yuma and back Monday) and now these ghost cars, are an attempt to keep drivers obeying the law at all times, not just when they can see you, because drivers never know where an officer might be hiding in plain sight.

Yes, police impersonators have been a minor issue, at least up until this point. However, agencies have publicly stated that if you have any question about a supposed police car which is attempting to pull you over, that you should call 9-1-1 to confirm that it's a legitimate officer, that you have the right to request a fully marked unit to respond, and that you can put your hazards on, and continue on to a safe location before you pull over.
I'm sure that if police impersonators attempting to conduct fake traffic stops become an more frequent issue, that agencies will reconsider using anything other than a fully marked vehicle, at least between dusk and dawn.

John
Peoria
 

krokus

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I'm sure that if police impersonators attempting to conduct fake traffic stops become an more frequent issue, that agencies will reconsider using anything other than a fully marked vehicle, at least between dusk and dawn.

John
Peoria

Good option! Daylight hours only, for traffic enforcement.

I could see the benefit for patrolling problem areas, for a bit of stealth.

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Evgeni

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I don't like the idea of unmarkeds, quasi unmarkeds, and flat tops being used for traffic enforcement.

Cars, trucks, SUVs used in traffic enforcement should be marked clearly and have a roof mounted beacon.
 

bfperez

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Agreed. The sneaky thing reeks of police state tactics and always makes me think that money is the primary goal in enforcing traffic laws that way.

I've noticed that the kinds of roads where people slow down when they see obvious police cars and then speed right back are the kinds of roads where speed limits are set too low.


Obvious police cars would do wonders to keep traffic in line where it matters. One example in my area is I-15 between Russell and US-95.
It's rare to see obvious NHP or their new sneaky slicktops in that area; instead they hang out many miles South towards St Rose Parkway to catch commuters speeding on the open free flowing sections. If they wanted to slow traffic before the dense areas, it would make sense to post there and snag speeders whose speeding would actually cause problems, or make regular loops on the sections that are heavy during rush hour.

The sole justification for sneaky cars that actually makes any sense is that it encourages people to behave because they never know when big brother might be watching, and I don't free countries should operate like that.
 

fleef

Kristin Cavazos Phoenix Arizona
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hmm I like the idea of ghost cars myself. Any chance law enforcement gets to disguise themselves is fine with me. I used to live in a country where they joke that out of every 3 people one of them is a "civil" (secret police) I would rather not mention the country it matters not- just an anecdote related to the complaints of semi-unmarked cars. Any chance the cops get to nab some crum-bum is fine with me. I agree with the complainers about police state/fascism fears etc I do "get" what they're saying indeed I do- but I personally think the police could use any step-up/hand up/tricks and tips they can get. I do get my panties in a bunch over seeing what looks like "ROBOCOP" types with so much military gear and what not all over them- they look like cyborgs- especially seeing the females all done up in all kind of gear just makes me LAUGH (ps i am female so i can say it so there)
 

SCPD

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The traffic enforcement officer on our local police department drives a white vehicle with subdued markings on it. It does not have a light bar on the roof, but red and blue lights are mounted in the grill and the center top of the windshield. The CHP uses all white sedans of a model that differs from the rest of the fleet. It doesn't bother me in the least and I also like the idea. People that violate traffic laws need to be caught, especially those who speed, make unsafe lane changes and fail to stop for pedestrians. This type of driving endangers others on the road at the same time.. Many drivers ignore the posted chain requirements and slide and spin into those who have the proper tires and chains installed.

The cars the chief of police and the one lieutenant drive are unmarked. I've ridden with both of them and sometimes they have to pull someone over due to the danger the driver is immediately causing. They usually call a marked unit to make the stop, but if the danger has to be stopped they have to take immediate action. I don't have a problem with this either.

The markings on the side of the vehicle are not hidden as they are quite easily noticed when viewed. They just are not as noticeable as the regular markings. People violating the law often don't look around them much and that lack of focus can be factor in poor driving.

I live in an area where a heavily trafficked U.S. Highway is the main street of 9 different towns. If any traffic enforcement of the needed speed limit in those towns the drivers that notice this and those who are ticketed call them "speed traps" and "just done to collect revenue." They call these towns "hick towns" and other urban condescending names. These are great places to live and trying to cross main street is often scary. There isn't enough speed enforcement, in my opinion, having lived/spent time in small towns where people will drive 55-70 in 25 and 35 mph zones. Try crossing the street in a marked sidewalk when vehicles are traveling that speed, especially when you have a couple of 3-7 year old kids in tow.

I don't need to worry about the markings, or lack thereof, on a police car. I drive the speed limit and obey the law. Doing so removes much of the stress of driving.

"Speed trap" is a term used by those who speed and don't want to be bothered to slow down in towns. It is similar to "activist judge," which really stands for a judge who makes a decision you don't like.
 

SCPD

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There are new police vehicle graphics (lettering) packages out now, that while they are still reflective at night when your headlights hit them, are much like the subdued unit, rank and US flag patches on service members uniforms.

By putting black or dark grey graphics on a black vehicle; blue graphics on a blue vehicle; or white/silver graphics on a white vehicle, it allows the unit to blend into traffic better.

Here's a pic of a Mesa PD Suburban (if it works):
https://fbcdn-photos-c-a.akamaihd.n..._=1442941581_c94152977b64069eae897d1ad0513660

These new "ghost cars" would fall in between low-profile cars (fully marked, but no light bar) and unmarked cars (no markings or visible lights).

Fox10 has an article about NJSP's new ghost car, and comments from Arizona folks indicated that MCSO, Phoenix PD, at least one agency in the Casa Grande Area (CG? Eloy? Arizona City? PCSO?), and I think one or two other agencies around the state are using them.

I think they're cool, btw. I don't want anyone to think that I was complaining about the ghost cars :)

John
Peoria

The traffic enforcement vehicle that I mentioned in my other post is more clearly marked than that one.

Someone mentioned military type gear being worn by police officers. If officers face criminals who are using similar gear do you want those officers to have less firepower and protection than those shooting at them. A lot was learned when the bank shooting in North Hollywood occurred several years ago. The officers had no protective gear and did not have assault rifles. A lot of trouble and injuries to the officers and the public would have been avoided had the officers been equipped properly. LEO's and rangers working for the NPS, USFS, BLM and USFWS carry such gear at all times as drug related shootings are probable on public lands with the nearest backup being up to several hours away. Again, do you expect these officers to do their jobs if they are under equipped?

A lot of people who violate the law could care less about anyone else, are heavily armed and don't hesitate to fire on officers. I was camping in Death Valley National Park when a car driven by "sovereign citizens" refused to stop for a NHP officer, began traveling at speeds over 100 miles per hour and fired at other NHP officers and Nye County, Nevada deputies before entering the east side of the park. They then fired at NPS protection rangers and a NPS patrol plane. They hit a CHP helo and forced it to land due to an oil leak, then started firing at officers in the aircraft with some high caliber rifles. at one point they were walking toward the campground I was in, a distance of less than 1[4 mile. The officers needed assault type rifles and protective gear that is somewhat similar to combat gear to face the threat they had.

It can happen in small towns and remote rural areas even though many would not expect such to happen. Rangers and LEO's of the Coronado and Cleveland National Forests, BLM Gila District (Tuscon), BLM Phoenix District, BLM California Desert District, Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument, Chiricahua National Monument, Coronado National Memorial; USFWS Cabeza Prieta, Buenos Aires, San Bernardino (Arizona) and San Diego Complex (California) National Wildlife Refuges better have military type gear given the dangers they face. Do you expect an officer to approach a home with an armed and dangerous murder suspect without such gear? Those officers need as much protection as they can get. Would you rather the officer approach in a regular uniform? Would you rather have them not confront suspects? Would you patrol these areas and arrest a murder suspect without the best protective gear available? I don't think so as most of the population does not have to confront people in the way law enforcement does and avoid confrontation when they face it.
 
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AZScanner

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If you think the subdued markings on Mesa's new Tahoe are sneaky, watch the news next time there's a live breaking event such as an active shooter or pursuit in Phoenix. It's amazing how many completely unmarked F-250's, Silverados and Suburbans appear from out of nowhere with lights and sirens cleverly hidden behind the front grill, in corners of windows and behind stock looking tail and headlight lenses, as shown here:

3888461387_95dfcca827.jpg


So you really never know who's behind you. If it's a suburban or a pickup truck with a bedcover and a little tiny antenna on the roof, chances are good that's it's actually a police vehicle of some kind. Phoenix has dozens of them, as do all the other major cities in the nation. The one pictured above is a Tucson Police vehicle.

-AZ
 

rpgaun

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Agencies in New England have been using vehicles like these for years. Upper brass would be issued high end vehicles that were seized in drug bust. Many times I've seen a cady, land rover, BMW etc. decked out with low profile emergency equipment. As long as 30 years ago NYSP were using unmarked Shelby Mustangs for speed enforcement on the Interstates & Thruways.
 

KB7MIB

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Unmarked vehicles, and low-profile slick tops, aren't new.

Using dark grey graphics packages on a black vehicle, or blue on blue, or white/silver on white, is fairly new. To me, this puts the ghost cars inbetween the unmarked ones and the fully marked low profile slick tops.

And, these graphics are still reflective at night when your headlights hit them.

John
Peoria
 

fleef

Kristin Cavazos Phoenix Arizona
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The traffic enforcement vehicle that I mentioned in my other post is more clearly marked than that one.

Someone mentioned military type gear being worn by police officers. If officers face criminals who are using similar gear do you want those officers to have less firepower and protection than those shooting at them. A lot was learned when the bank shooting in North Hollywood occurred several years ago. The officers had no protective gear and did not have assault rifles. A lot of trouble and injuries to the officers and the public would have been avoided had the officers been equipped properly. LEO's and rangers working for the NPS, USFS, BLM and USFWS carry such gear at all times as drug related shootings are probable on public lands with the nearest backup being up to several hours away. Again, do you expect these officers to do their jobs if they are under equipped?

A lot of people who violate the law could care less about anyone else, are heavily armed and don't hesitate to fire on officers. I was camping in Death Valley National Park when a car driven by "sovereign citizens" refused to stop for a NHP officer, began traveling at speeds over 100 miles per hour and fired at other NHP officers and Nye County, Nevada deputies before entering the east side of the park. They then fired at NPS protection rangers and a NPS patrol plane. They hit a CHP helo and forced it to land due to an oil leak, then started firing at officers in the aircraft with some high caliber rifles. at one point they were walking toward the campground I was in, a distance of less than 1[4 mile. The officers needed assault type rifles and protective gear that is somewhat similar to combat gear to face the threat they had.

It can happen in small towns and remote rural areas even though many would not expect such to happen. Rangers and LEO's of the Coronado and Cleveland National Forests, BLM Gila District (Tuscon), BLM Phoenix District, BLM California Desert District, Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument, Chiricahua National Monument, Coronado National Memorial; USFWS Cabeza Prieta, Buenos Aires, San Bernardino (Arizona) and San Diego Complex (California) National Wildlife Refuges better have military type gear given the dangers they face. Do you expect an officer to approach a home with an armed and dangerous murder suspect without such gear? Those officers need as much protection as they can get. Would you rather the officer approach in a regular uniform? Would you rather have them not confront suspects? Would you patrol these areas and arrest a murder suspect without the best protective gear available? I don't think so as most of the population does not have to confront people in the way law enforcement does and avoid confrontation when they face it.


Now you don't think this image of mil gear on police is just silly? What was wrong with the stuff they used to wear? It suited them fine for all kinds of nonsense they would run into. The police depts got some kind of deal with one of our allies, to "teach" them military tactics and with the training they got gear too- actually it wasn't really "free" as we give that ally 4bil USD of our tax money each year.
 

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JoeyC

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Now you don't think this image of mil gear on police is just silly? What was wrong with the stuff they used to wear? It suited them fine for all kinds of nonsense they would run into. The police depts got some kind of deal with one of our allies, to "teach" them military tactics and with the training they got gear too- actually it wasn't really "free" as we give that ally 4bil USD of our tax money each year.

As with anything, it depends on the context. They're not lined up for this photoshoot pre-arrest of the hoodrat in the park selling crack. In preparation for angry mobs such as recent Baltimore and Ferguson antics this is prudent preparation.

Its easy to be an internet armchair strategist isn't it?
 

KB7MIB

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When rioters start grabbing anything that isn't nailed down to use against the officers, such protective gear helps keep the officers out of the hospital, and allows them to go home unscathed to their families afterwards.

If people would obey the laws, do you think the police would need all this gear?

Or would you prefer that the National Guard, be called out to handle incidents like this, with the police behind them? Or that a governor declare martial law altogether, and we end up with regular Army and Marines patrolling our streets?

Personally, I would like to see less crime and violence on the streets to begin with. But, until that becomes reality, the law-abiding need the police to be as well equipped as possible to handle the crime and violence.

John
Peoria, AZ
 

SCPD

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Now you don't think this image of mil gear on police is just silly? What was wrong with the stuff they used to wear? It suited them fine for all kinds of nonsense they would run into. The police depts got some kind of deal with one of our allies, to "teach" them military tactics and with the training they got gear too- actually it wasn't really "free" as we give that ally 4bil USD of our tax money each year.

There are more organizations that promote violence than years ago. There are more people willing to use violence than before. People are more heavily armed than before. People are more belligerent than they used to be. It's my observation that people from urban areas are so used to having anonymity in a sea of humanity that they never have to be accountable for their rude and threatening behavior. The closer a National Forest or National Park is to an urban area the more disrespectful some people are. When I lived in Arizona in the 1970's and worked on a National Forest in northern Arizona people from Phoenix were pretty nice and things have changed. I didn't used to get flipped off, tailgated and cut off like I do when I drive there now.

If you have not lined up to break up a violent or potentially violent crowd then who are you to call the officers lined up in the picture silly? How many belligerent people have you dealt with? How many citations have you written? How many times has a gun been aimed at you? How many times have you been shot at? How many times have you been hit by gunfire? How many times have you been the only officer at a recreation site where 1500 people are drinking and swimming in a creek? How many times have you faced a group and had some of them try to get behind your back? I've never had to face a full riot, but I know how skilled people are at hurting you.

Using your logic we could say that we did fine without seatbelts, air bags and side window safety curtains. We did just fine without the U.S. DOT and the Insurance Institute not crash testing vehicles. That gear the officers are wearing is designed to reduce the number of injuries suffered by officers over the years. Public employee on the job injuries are costly, sometimes causing early retirements. Are police agencies supposed to ignore the safety of their officers and the cost of on the job injuries? Would you face people in a riot with gear from the 1940's. Would you go on foot patrol without a handheld? The LAPD only had mobiles until the late 1970's or 1980's, so why should we spend the money to equip each officer with one, What was wrong with not carrying one? What was wrong with not having mobile data terminals in each vehicle? What was wrong with not having the National Crime Information Center?

What was wrong with not having computers to program our scanners? What was wrong with the old Radio Communications Monitoring Association where we would submit our information on notebook paper and everyone got to look at it 2 moths later? Heck, what was wrong with crystal scanners with 8 channels? Why do we have to have 12.5 kHz channel spacing? Seems to me that 25 kHz was working just fine.

In the recent past the U.S. Military received some training from civilian law enforcement agencies as warfare started to be fought street by street and door by door. I have a young friend of mine who is in the Navy's Sergeant at Arms organization and he told me this many years ago. Civilian law enforcement agencies have gotten some tips from the military, so what!

Have you forgotten the LAPD"s North Hollywood bank robbery shootout? Officer's were outgunned and lacked the defensive gear they needed. If you view video of the event you get to see a bunch of officers taking incredibly heroic actions protecting citizens and fellow officers, many who had already been wounded and were pinned down. They had to run down the street to a gun shop to get weapons to match the firepower of the suspects, but they didn't have the body armor the suspects. They didn't carry as much ammunition the suspects had. That event was a major benchmark in the history of U.S. law enforcement.

One other factor that hasn't been discussed is a basic principle of law enforcement. When presented with an obvious superior force many people and groups stop their aggressive actions. When this happens fewer law violators and officers are injured. One year when the L.A. Lakers won the NBA championship a riot ensued. The police were outnumbered and a lot of people got hurt and a lot of property was damaged. Police and civilian vehicles were turned over and burned. Some non-involved citizens were caught up in the rioting with many assaulted and others beaten. They were inadvertently in the wrong place at the wrong time. The next year the Lakers won the championship and far better planning and greater numbers of well outfitted police officers were present. There were far fewer injuries to officers, basketball fans and non-involved citizens. The LAPD had quite a few unmarked SUV type vehicles with long running boards on each side with four or five officers standing on each with full riot gear and long guns.

During my career I did some wilderness patrols on foot and some on a horse, including one very large Palomino. I liked being on foot as I didn't have to spend a few hours a day taking care of the horse, tack, ad nauseam. I could pick up trash (more of the aggressively apathetic crowd) and perform routine trail maintenance tasks quickly, without having to dismount and remount. However, when I was on that large Palomino and encountered belligerent people I got cooperation very fast in comparison to being on foot. A horse is the equivalent of ten people. Me being on a horse was a show of force, even though I was riding one, not for force, but to cover more ground. That big Palomino sure came in handy. By the way, on routine contacts I dismounted and took off my sunglasses as quickly as I could, once I could see there was no threat.

Finally, the easiest thing to do is be a hero in someone else's war.
 
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ecps92

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Who invented the "Ghost Car" ?? term, I can see them, so it's not a Ghost.

Low-Profile, Unmarked, Undercover have been around for years (30++)

Atleast here in New England :cool: , guess something finally has gone from East Coast to West Coast with a trend.

There are new police vehicle graphics (lettering) packages out now, that while they are still reflective at night when your headlights hit them, are much like the subdued unit, rank and US flag patches on service members uniforms.

By putting black or dark grey graphics on a black vehicle; blue graphics on a blue vehicle; or white/silver graphics on a white vehicle, it allows the unit to blend into traffic better.

Here's a pic of a Mesa PD Suburban (if it works):
https://fbcdn-photos-c-a.akamaihd.n..._=1442941581_c94152977b64069eae897d1ad0513660

These new "ghost cars" would fall in between low-profile cars (fully marked, but no light bar) and unmarked cars (no markings or visible lights).

Fox10 has an article about NJSP's new ghost car, and comments from Arizona folks indicated that MCSO, Phoenix PD, at least one agency in the Casa Grande Area (CG? Eloy? Arizona City? PCSO?), and I think one or two other agencies around the state are using them.

I think they're cool, btw. I don't want anyone to think that I was complaining about the ghost cars :)

John
Peoria
 
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