RadioReference on Facebook   RadioReference on Twitter   RadioReference Blog
 

Go Back   The RadioReference.com Forums > U.S. Regional Radio Discussion Forums > Arkansas Radio Discussion Forum

Arkansas Radio Discussion Forum Forum for discussing Radio Information in the State of Arkansas.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2013, 8:45 PM
03msc's Avatar
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 657
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by milf View Post
In MOST locations its Emergency Management, or Sheriff's Office that does the hobnobbing on radio systems. In a few they now have an Emergency Communications Office/E-911 District type of thing set up that EVERY public safety agency in the area has input on communications systems. Then the buck gets passed to the state level, then if approved by them, gets coordinated with an APCO person, then onward from there.

Example: Hot Dang VFD that runs ops in a two county FPD needs to upgrade from a single BM set up that barely covers 3/4 of thier area, to a 2 repeater & BM narrowband VHF set up. They go to both county supervisors and get the pitch in. Both counties agree, and submit that to the State Wireless Communications Agency. They vote, and approve it. This then goes to the APCO coordinator who helps them submit it to FCC. At the same time they begin the bidding war to get the contractors to build the system, buy gear from, do the installs and programming. The FCC aproves and assigns freqs etc. Eventually some lucky set of contractors win the jobs. Then eventually the system gets built. A couple of years later its outdated and time to start again...

The phase at which you the general public has any say at all is during the open county/city council/board of supervisors meetings at which this is discussed. If you can A: Have a big enough group of interested voters, and B: Have an well organized, and well researched arguement, or data points, you may actually get past the stone wall that sits between most of those peoples ears.
Thanks much for your input! Appreciate that.
__________________
Mark | KD5BVX / WQUD713 | Arkansas
RS Pro-106 | Uniden HP-1, 996XT, 15X | Kenwood, Icom, Vertex, Yaesu
Thanks for being part of the RadioReference Community!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:44 AM
iamhere300's Avatar
Member
  Audio Feed Provider
Audio Feed Provider
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by milf View Post
I
Example: Hot Dang VFD that runs ops in a two county FPD needs to upgrade from a single BM set up that barely covers 3/4 of thier area, to a 2 repeater & BM narrowband VHF set up. They go to both county supervisors and get the pitch in. Both counties agree, and submit that to the State Wireless Communications Agency. They vote, and approve it. This then goes to the APCO coordinator who helps them submit it to FCC. At the same time they begin the bidding war to get the contractors to build the system, buy gear from, do the installs and programming. The FCC aproves and assigns freqs etc. Eventually some lucky set of contractors win the jobs. Then eventually the system gets built. A couple of years later its outdated and time to start again...
.
In most cases, unless Hot Dang VFD is asking the counties for money, HDVFD just applies to the appropiate coordinator - IMSA or APCO, etc, who assigns the frequencies, often after allowing the VFD or radio shop to monitor to ensure they are clear.

Then the coordinator submits to the FCC who rubber stamps in most all cases the coordinators decisions on frequency, power, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 10:43 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 13
Default Scanner

Is there a software for my digital scanner to pick up Blytheville Arkansas PD new radio systerm. I have a PRO 2096 desk top and a hand held digital trunking. I can pick up AWIN.
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2013, 1:29 PM
milf's Avatar
Careful, I CAN hear you!
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 7,896
Default

The easy answer for the PRO-96/2096... NO. Unless you go to the trouble of tapping it, and running DSD software on the computer. There are NO scanners that alone can monitor MotoTRBO, NXDN/IDAS *non NexEDGE*, or NexEDGE digital systems. Using an tapped scanner and DSD, you can monitor MotoTRBO conventional & trunked *Non Ecrypted*, NXDN/IDAS conventional *Non Encrypted*, and kinda, sorta, NexEDGE conventional *Non Encrypted*. Until some fixes are made, currently there are issues with DSD and NexEDGE trunked systems. It is unknown yet as to if DSD can work well currently with the LTR/NXDN *not NexEDGE* systems.
__________________
Admin & Mod for AR, LA, MS, and TN
Scanology, its the path to monitoring happiness!
Support your local Scanologists!
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2013, 1:05 PM
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Malvern, AR
Posts: 4
Default

If you ask the State, interoperability in Arkansas = AWIN. Period.

It seems to me that here, it's not as much an issue of analog vs. P25 vs. DMR vs. NexEDGE, but more of a band issue. It's not even remotely feasible for our county that currently is 100% VHF to go to 7/800 AWIN. We have a quote that is north of seven figures. If we were full-time AWIN, we would actually be less interoperable with some of our neighbors, as not every responder carries and AWIN radio around. We have a grand total of two APX7000's in the County, and caught flack from the governing body over their cost.

At the basic level, P25 AWIN is no more interoperable with our analog VHF than a rock. Later this year, when we switch some of our public safety to Capacity Plus TRBO, our center will continue to monitor the analog "backup" systems, and individuals will still have the capability to switch to established analog interop VHF channels. Going to P25 VHF instead of DMR VHF would make us no more or less interoperable with anyone than we are now. (Besides, I can't think of a P25 system in Arkansas that isn't AWIN anyway, but I could be wrong)

Incidentally, as part of an effort to alleviate some of the cross-band/platform issues, AWIN provided bridging equipment (ACU1000's and MotoBridge's) to every county in the State to bridge their home system with the "interoperable" AWIN solution.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm certainly not bashing AWIN or P25 in general at all. If we could afford it, we'd be full-time right now. I just wanted to provide a perspective from a rural county with a rural budget that wants the increased coverage (even over wideband analog, as Rayfield noted), capacity efficiency of TDMA, features, and cost effectiveness that DMR provides. P25 isn't a one-size-fits-all solution, and with bridging, interoperability across bands and waveforms will be alive and well here.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #46 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2013, 7:09 PM
iamhere300's Avatar
Member
  Audio Feed Provider
Audio Feed Provider
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
Default

Have you ever listened to a digital radio over a bridge to another digital radio?


For various reasons, a bridge is a sloppy solution to an interoperable system.

Then you add agencies on the state line going TRBO or NXDN/IDAS in Arkansas, with no interop analog channels for their adjoining departments in Missouri to be able to talk to them.

It is a mess.
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2013, 11:50 PM
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Malvern, AR
Posts: 4
Default

Agreed.

Naturally, the bridge isn't intended to be a full-time solution. The other alternatives to talking to our full-time AWIN neighboring Counties are unrealistic at best.

We're coordinating with the neighbors with whom we share a band to select channels to use, in addition to leaving the older analog system(s) monitored as "backup".
We'll just have to muddle along until FirstNet comes in and saves us.

It's unfortunate that the border Arkansas agencies apparently aren't having conversations with their northern neighbors.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2013, 11:20 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 608
Default

Obviously, you haven't heard what a 'properly designed' bridge system sounds like. In one that is properly designed, the audio between the two systems sounds excellent, especially if both systems are digital and the bridge is connected to both systems via IP connections. Even with one side of such a bridge connected via IP, it still can sound very good.

Even digital-to-analog bridging can sound very good, if the bridge system is designed well. And, as to operation, a properly-designed bridge system can be almost 'transparent' to the users.

I've been involved in developing 'interoperability' bridging systems, long before the industry was even using the term "interoperability" (I developed my first 'bridging device' in 1989 or 1990). One of my largest (and most fun to work with) clients was the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Saskatchewan.

There's definitely 'good bridging' and definitely 'bad bridging'.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamhere300 View Post
Have you ever listened to a digital radio over a bridge to another digital radio?


For various reasons, a bridge is a sloppy solution to an interoperable system.

Then you add agencies on the state line going TRBO or NXDN/IDAS in Arkansas, with no interop analog channels for their adjoining departments in Missouri to be able to talk to them.

It is a mess.
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2013, 12:14 PM
poppafred's Avatar
Member
  Shack Photos
Shack photos
Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: West Central Arkansas
Posts: 475
Default

Have the OEM folks ever considered what would happen if the ham radio ops ever treated the OEM in the same way the OEM has treated the general public? They want us to burn our gas, use our radios and our time to keep them informed on certain situations but we are not supposed to know when car 15 stops for coffee? They might want to consider the downside of isolating themselves.
__________________
Fred - KK5AA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 2004 -- Pro 91 -- Pro 97 -- Pro 197 -- PSR 500
Icom IC-7000 -- Kenwood TM-V708a -- Yeasu FT-60R
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #50 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2013, 8:01 PM
Member
  Audio Feed Provider
Audio Feed Provider
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 113
Default

Our county went TRBO and the sheriff selectively decided not to encrypt because he said they have nothing to hide and if the other city wants to use Hytera DMR, then he welcomed them to use another vendor. He expects scanners to come out soon and has no issue with it being unencrypted. I was not there for the conversation, but he reportedly said, we have cell phones and know how to use them.

Last edited by jhsands; 02-07-2013 at 8:16 PM.. Reason: ...
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2013, 8:13 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ashdown, Arkansas
Posts: 23
Default

What I have found is that people where they have reputable dealers program their equipment only lose about 10% coverage. Where other dealers deliberately decrease the coverage so they can sell digital systems. A lot of those dealers that do such a thing sell products starting with an M.

I know several counties that use a non M dealer and they have very negligible loss.

If you're thinking of having a new digital system put in because of coverage, be sure and get another dealer (non-M) to check your duplexors, cables and antenna.

I know of one such place that did and found a bad connector on a newly installed jumper. Ironically they were never billed for such a jumper, but it was replaced, and their system started working fine. You'd get a second opinion before spending $60,000 on a new car or medical procedure wouldn't you?

Second, why not spend the extra $20,000 to equip all the officers that don't have awin radios, instead of spending the $60,000 it takes to put up TRBO/NexEdge? Because dealers tell them RC4 encryption is unbreakable, where in truth, it's only a 5 bit key that can be cycled through easily, even with Motorola's claimed "billion" codes. RC4 has long been broken.
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 1:29 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 59
Default

You meant a 5 byte or 40-bit key. You're definitely right about the ease in cracking it.
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 2:46 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 608
Default

While I will agree that there are unscrupulous sales people out there, your 'blanket' accusation that the loss of coverage, when switching from wideband analog to narrowband analog, is being caused by unscrupulous dealers "deliberately decreasing the coverage", is not supported by the facts. I've personally reprogrammed some systems to narrowband and have seen a loss in range in some of those systems, significantly higher than 10%.

Your dislike of Motorola (and why not use the name - everyone knows who you're talking about) and 'bias against' anyone who has any connection with Motorola, is very obvious. In the 35 years that I've been in this industry, I've seen unscrupulous dealers and some of the worst were/are not Motorola dealers. And I've seen a lot of very reputable dealers as well, who were associated with all the different brands that are out there, including Motorola. No one company has 'cornered the market' on having unscrupulous dealers.

The fact is, there are numerous factors that will have a bearing on the difference in range between a wideband system and the same system when it is narrowbanded. The specific design of an FM receiver will have a lot to do with the amount of loss in range that a user will experience when switching from wideband to narrowband. Even within the same brand, some models may work better than others in narrowband mode. And it is a fact, that in most cases, digital systems (such as MOTOTRBO, NexEdge, and P25) will provide better range (and in some cases, a LOT better range) than narrowband analog systems, when both types of systems are operating properly and with the same 'parameters' (the same power output, the same antennas, etc).

As to the MOTOTRBO Enhanced Privacy, yes, the enhanced privacy makes use of the ARC4 algorithm. But there's more to the Enhanced Privacy than just that algorithm. Additional methods are used to enhance the security and the exact details of these methods are kept 'secret' (not even licensed MOTOTRBO Application Development Partners are given that information). And the key is 40 bits, not 5. Sure, it's not 'unbreakable', but it is at a level comparable to analog rolling code scramblers, which are not likely going to be broken by anyone in the 'general public'. While ARC4 has been broken, I've never heard of anyone breaking the MOTOTRBO Enhanced Encryption (and neither have any of the engineers at Motorola, who I've discussed this with).

Getting a second opinion on something is usually never a bad idea. But, when it comes to land mobile radio communications companies, the 'value' of a second opinion is going to depend a lot on the technical expertise of the technicians involved. And I've seen some VERY bad technicians (they shouldn't have even been trying to do the work, they knew so little of what they were doing) and they weren't working for Motorola shops.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by snig64 View Post
What I have found is that people where they have reputable dealers program their equipment only lose about 10% coverage. Where other dealers deliberately decrease the coverage so they can sell digital systems. A lot of those dealers that do such a thing sell products starting with an M.

I know several counties that use a non M dealer and they have very negligible loss.

If you're thinking of having a new digital system put in because of coverage, be sure and get another dealer (non-M) to check your duplexors, cables and antenna.

I know of one such place that did and found a bad connector on a newly installed jumper. Ironically they were never billed for such a jumper, but it was replaced, and their system started working fine. You'd get a second opinion before spending $60,000 on a new car or medical procedure wouldn't you?

Second, why not spend the extra $20,000 to equip all the officers that don't have awin radios, instead of spending the $60,000 it takes to put up TRBO/NexEdge? Because dealers tell them RC4 encryption is unbreakable, where in truth, it's only a 5 bit key that can be cycled through easily, even with Motorola's claimed "billion" codes. RC4 has long been broken.
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 1:47 PM
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Malvern, AR
Posts: 4
Default

We've seen very similar results. As an example, we have two systems that are identical in equipment and antenna location (Horizontal plane on a water tank). DMR coverage in this particular situation was far superior to analog. This doesn't seem to be much of a secret with frequency coordinators, however. When one these system's license was modified to DMR emissions, ERP was cut by frequency coordination nearly in half to compensate for the increase in range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRayfield View Post
And it is a fact, that in most cases, digital systems (such as MOTOTRBO, NexEdge, and P25) will provide better range (and in some cases, a LOT better range) than narrowband analog systems, when both types of systems are operating properly and with the same 'parameters' (the same power output, the same antennas, etc).
The majority of our infrastructure is self-maintained. Some systems lost very little to narrowbanding, and others suffered considerably. It's important to reiterate the multitude of factors and dynamics involved.

As a side note, our DMR "patrol" talkgroups are unencrypted. Investigations or tactical talkgroups are. I suspect that one day, in the not-too-distant future, scanner manufacturers will recognize the surge in DMR and NXDN and act accordingly. Until then, everyone here is free to fire up DSD and decode like there's no tomorrow.

The impressive ROI on the DMR systems is the reason the change was made. Keeping people out or treating HAM ops like step-children was nowhere in the equation. We're using most of our existing infrastructure, and a feature set that we can't even get with the State system.

AWIN is very specific about defining part-time and full-time use. $20K buys 15 low-end P25 SmartZone radios. That same $20K buys 28 mid-range DMR's. If one were to go full-time AWIN, add another $160K for infrastructure. I've been through the application process, and have a seven-figure proposal to move our jurisdictions to full-time.

If we could afford our own P25 system, or full-time AWIN, we'd probably do it. But the money isn't here, and the grants aren't flowing like they were ten years ago.
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:45 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ashdown, Arkansas
Posts: 23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRayfield View Post
Your dislike of Motorola (and why not use the name - everyone knows who you're talking about) and 'bias against' anyone who has any connection with Motorola, is very obvious. In the 35 years that I've been in this industry, I've seen unscrupulous dealers and some of the worst were/are not Motorola dealers. And I've seen a lot of very reputable dealers as well, who were associated with all the different brands that are out there, including Motorola. No one company has 'cornered the market' on having unscrupulous dealers.

I very much like Motorola and their products. We use them for all but on-scene (vehicle repeater) handhelds and base stations. $200 cheaper for something to talk to our dipsatch center with a 3dB antenna at 40' is fine. $400 less for a handheld we're going to use within 1/2mi is simply good business sense.

We do use their Motorola (HT750) for our primary band. We have all CDM1550s and could buy plenty of VX3200s cheaper or Kenwood series, but Motorola has the best equipment. I happily do say we use a Motorola dealer today we trust and have a good working relationship with. We use all MTR3000s with 100w amp. Only the best!!!

Saying that, three dealers I have dealt with were less than honest in their dealings. Just as one example, one sold us an antenna because "it was bad" and we forced them to let us keep the old antenna. Then the "coax" was bad so there's another $3k. Climbing the tower again because of their error was $1500. A ham operator tested the Antenna's SWR, deemed it fine, and is using it to this day. The M company we use now (as above) used the cable for uplink yagis.

Second time we had another company come in and said our duplexors were worn out. We bought a new set and had the old duplexors off ourselves to be fixed. Company sent them back and said they retuned them (for free) but nothing else was wrong.

They've left a bad taste with me. I love their products just not what they've done. The XPR3500 is a nice piece of equipment, but the XPR6550 probably has been "specs" but I'm not that into spurius rejection isolation and all that good stuff. Not specs as in advanced encryption or IP Connect, but the hardware.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #56 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:53 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ashdown, Arkansas
Posts: 23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSC55B View Post
As a side note, our DMR "patrol" talkgroups are unencrypted. Investigations or tactical talkgroups are
I wish Russellville and Clarksville also had that mindset. As an old school scanner junkie (I guest DSD now too), I have no issue with investigations and tactical being encrypted. NONE. regular dispatch should be unecrypted and transpartent.

Quote:
AWIN is very specific about defining part-time and full-time use. $20K buys 15 low-end P25 SmartZone radios. That same $20K buys 28 mid-range DMR's. If one were to go full-time AWIN, add another $160K for infrastructure. I've been through the application process, and have a seven-figure proposal to move our jurisdictions to full-time.

If we could afford our own P25 system, or full-time AWIN, we'd probably do it. But the money isn't here, and the grants aren't flowing like they were ten years ago.
With our application we were not going to have to add any infrastructure as it is so underutilized they said it would almost be welcome. Did you not already have enough AWIN radios to throw up a P25 800 conventional? You dont need a system key to add a conventional system

Last edited by snig64; 02-08-2013 at 10:54 PM.. Reason: quote in wrong spot
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:57 PM
03msc's Avatar
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 657
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snig64 View Post
...I have no issue with investigations and tactical being encrypted. NONE. regular dispatch should be unecrypted and transpartent.
...
Ditto!!
__________________
Mark | KD5BVX / WQUD713 | Arkansas
RS Pro-106 | Uniden HP-1, 996XT, 15X | Kenwood, Icom, Vertex, Yaesu
Thanks for being part of the RadioReference Community!
Reply With Quote
  #58 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2013, 9:05 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 608
Default

I can understand why you feel the way you do, after going through what you did with those dealers. I'm very glad that you finally found an honest dealer. Obviously, I didn't really understand what was really on your mind as I read your previous post.

John


Quote:
Originally Posted by snig64 View Post
I very much like Motorola and their products. We use them for all but on-scene (vehicle repeater) handhelds and base stations. $200 cheaper for something to talk to our dipsatch center with a 3dB antenna at 40' is fine. $400 less for a handheld we're going to use within 1/2mi is simply good business sense.

We do use their Motorola (HT750) for our primary band. We have all CDM1550s and could buy plenty of VX3200s cheaper or Kenwood series, but Motorola has the best equipment. I happily do say we use a Motorola dealer today we trust and have a good working relationship with. We use all MTR3000s with 100w amp. Only the best!!!

Saying that, three dealers I have dealt with were less than honest in their dealings. Just as one example, one sold us an antenna because "it was bad" and we forced them to let us keep the old antenna. Then the "coax" was bad so there's another $3k. Climbing the tower again because of their error was $1500. A ham operator tested the Antenna's SWR, deemed it fine, and is using it to this day. The M company we use now (as above) used the cable for uplink yagis.

Second time we had another company come in and said our duplexors were worn out. We bought a new set and had the old duplexors off ourselves to be fixed. Company sent them back and said they retuned them (for free) but nothing else was wrong.

They've left a bad taste with me. I love their products just not what they've done. The XPR3500 is a nice piece of equipment, but the XPR6550 probably has been "specs" but I'm not that into spurius rejection isolation and all that good stuff. Not specs as in advanced encryption or IP Connect, but the hardware.
Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2013, 9:18 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Iberia
Posts: 136
Default

Any luck in buying a couple of those radios with all the software to use on the GMRS. I'm taling Nexedge here.
Reply With Quote
  #60 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2013, 3:23 PM
Member
  Audio Feed Provider
Audio Feed Provider
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSC55B View Post
AWIN is very specific about defining part-time and full-time use. $20K buys 15 low-end P25 SmartZone radios. That same $20K buys 28 mid-range DMR's. If one were to go full-time AWIN, add another $160K for infrastructure. I've been through the application process, and have a seven-figure proposal to move our jurisdictions to full-time.
If you paid $714 for each DMR, then you got ripped off. Sandy's Communications has been selling XPR6550s for years at $525 and XPR4550s at $500. The recent XPR3500s (no IP Connect or Adv Enc) are $400.

You don't need "local service" to change a radio ID and clone the radio.

p.s. If you buy radios from them, mention me!

Last edited by jhsands; 04-04-2013 at 3:24 PM.. Reason: ps
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All information here is Copyright 2012 by RadioReference.com LLC and Lindsay C. Blanton III.Ad Management by RedTyger
Copyright 2011 by RadioReference.com LLC Privacy Policy  |  Terms and Conditions