USFS Region 6 which covers California switch to P25 digital in 2009

[ssd]

The BK handhelds are a favorite of the US Forest Service and the people that work with them. The USFS has recently changed the technical requirements, and this email clarifies the situation that affects a lot of folks:

> From: A. Nony Mous
> To: repeater-builder BK page
> Subject: You might want to post this email on the BK page...
Users of BK radios who coordinate with the USFS or BLM should be aware that wideband radios are no longer acceptable for use by wildland firefighting contractors. This means all LPH, EPH and EMH radios will not be usable in USFS operations !!! On top of that, The BK handhelds are a favorite of the US Forest Service and the people that work with them. The USFS has recently changed the technical requirements, and this email clarifies the situation that affects a lot of folks:

> From: A. Nony Mous
> To: repeater-builder BK page
> Subject: You might want to post this email on the BK page...
Users of BK radios who coordinate with the USFS or BLM should be aware that wideband radios are no longer acceptable for use by wildland firefighting contractors. This means all LPH, EPH and EMH radios will not be usable in USFS operations !!! On top of that, USFS Region 6 which covers California and Washington state is also planning to begin making the switch to P25 digital in 2009.

Testing of the P25 digital mode continues. Results are very favorable for portable radios wherein tests showed the P25 mode more readable all up until the point where the signal became noisy in the analog radio and then the P25 signal was completely lost. It was also found that P25 in mobile applications was very intolerant to "motorboating" caused by multipath reflections and during mobile radio testing, analog rated superior to P25 digital. Based upon these tests, P25 digital may require a repeater infrastructure so that signal levels can remain high and multipath interference can be minimized. The most common comment about P25 is that it either works or it doesn't with little or no warning between the two conditions.

The FCC is also now assigning new analog VHF frequencies in California and elsewhere that require radios capable of operating on a 6.25 KHz channel spacing. Only GPH, DPH and DPHX portables and GMH and DMH mobiles are capable of operating on 6.25 KHz channel spacing assignments. Older LPH, EPH and EMH radios are only capable of operating on channels down to 12.5 KHz channel spacing.
and Washington state is also planning to begin making the switch to P25 digital in 2009.

Testing of the P25 digital mode continues. Results are very favorable for portable radios wherein tests showed the P25 mode more readable all up until the point where the signal became noisy in the analog radio and then the P25 signal was completely lost. It was also found that P25 in mobile applications was very intolerant to "motorboating" caused by multipath reflections and during mobile radio testing, analog rated superior to P25 digital. Based upon these tests, P25 digital may require a repeater infrastructure so that signal levels can remain high and multipath interference can be minimized. The most common comment about P25 is that it either works or it doesn't with little or no warning between the two conditions.

The FCC is also now assigning new analog VHF frequencies in California and elsewhere that require radios capable of operating on a 6.25 KHz channel spacing. Only GPH, DPH and DPHX portables and GMH and DMH mobiles are capable of operating on 6.25 KHz channel spacing assignments. Older LPH, EPH and EMH radios are only capable of operating on channels down to 12.5 KHz channel spacing.

Click here for more details:
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/docs...and_issues.pdf

[jim202]

With all the flap going on with the digital trunking systems and the noise problems that have been
identified this move smells of a slick sales force. There have been numerous articles published by
well known people in the fire service about the problems with using digital mode communications
by the fire service. NFPA has stated for a number of years that digital radio communications
has not developed to a point where life safety of the fire fighter is much better off using analog
mode communications. If your at the limits of the communications range, you can tell by the
signal. When using the digital mode, there is no indication that your at the limits. It either
works or it doesn't. Not a position I would like to be in while fighting a forest fire and trying to call
for help.

This seems like a premature move to switch to the digital mode of communications while there
is so many problems that haven't been resolved yet. The vocoder is the root of the problem. If
Motorola hasn't figured out a way to get around the voice being covered over by background
noise, I don't see this as a wise move by the Forest Service. The quick fix right now seems to
be user training and not to be in a high noise background area when you use your radio. Use
a noise canceling mic and things like this. Yup, I am going to take the time to move 200 feet away
from a machine running or a fire alarm bell ringing before I can call for help.

Tell me Mr. Sales Force how are you going to save a persons life if his radio won't function
because it is working the way it was designed to when that fire person needs help and can't be
understood? The use of digital communications has already cost people their life.

Tell me Mr. Forest Service manager, how are you going to explain to a person's family that they
couldn't be heard over the radio because you made them use the digital mode of communications.
Let us see just how long the boys on the ground use these new radios before they are screaming
to switch back to analog,

I have 35 years in the fire service and have been designing radio systems for about 20 of the 45 plus
years I have been servicing 2 way radios. Still doing it today. In my travels around the country
working with the public safety agencies, I hear it all the time about their digital radios. This isn't
something that is going away with a flick of a switch or handing out a new radio.

Take note you have been told what the future brings.

Jim

Originally Posted by ssd

The BK handhelds are a favorite of the US Forest Service and the people that work with them. The USFS has recently changed the technical requirements, and this email clarifies the situation that affects a lot of folks:

> From: A. Nony Mous
> To: repeater-builder BK page
> Subject: You might want to post this email on the BK page...
Users of BK radios who coordinate with the USFS or BLM should be aware that wideband radios are no longer acceptable for use by wildland firefighting contractors. This means all LPH, EPH and EMH radios will not be usable in USFS operations !!! On top of that, The BK handhelds are a favorite of the US Forest Service and the people that work with them. The USFS has recently changed the technical requirements, and this email clarifies the situation that affects a lot of folks:

> From: A. Nony Mous
> To: repeater-builder BK page
> Subject: You might want to post this email on the BK page...
Users of BK radios who coordinate with the USFS or BLM should be aware that wideband radios are no longer acceptable for use by wildland firefighting contractors. This means all LPH, EPH and EMH radios will not be usable in USFS operations !!! On top of that, USFS Region 6 which covers California and Washington state is also planning to begin making the switch to P25 digital in 2009.

Testing of the P25 digital mode continues. Results are very favorable for portable radios wherein tests showed the P25 mode more readable all up until the point where the signal became noisy in the analog radio and then the P25 signal was completely lost. It was also found that P25 in mobile applications was very intolerant to "motorboating" caused by multipath reflections and during mobile radio testing, analog rated superior to P25 digital. Based upon these tests, P25 digital may require a repeater infrastructure so that signal levels can remain high and multipath interference can be minimized. The most common comment about P25 is that it either works or it doesn't with little or no warning between the two conditions.

The FCC is also now assigning new analog VHF frequencies in California and elsewhere that require radios capable of operating on a 6.25 KHz channel spacing. Only GPH, DPH and DPHX portables and GMH and DMH mobiles are capable of operating on 6.25 KHz channel spacing assignments. Older LPH, EPH and EMH radios are only capable of operating on channels down to 12.5 KHz channel spacing.
and Washington state is also planning to begin making the switch to P25 digital in 2009.

Testing of the P25 digital mode continues. Results are very favorable for portable radios wherein tests showed the P25 mode more readable all up until the point where the signal became noisy in the analog radio and then the P25 signal was completely lost. It was also found that P25 in mobile applications was very intolerant to "motorboating" caused by multipath reflections and during mobile radio testing, analog rated superior to P25 digital. Based upon these tests, P25 digital may require a repeater infrastructure so that signal levels can remain high and multipath interference can be minimized. The most common comment about P25 is that it either works or it doesn't with little or no warning between the two conditions.

The FCC is also now assigning new analog VHF frequencies in California and elsewhere that require radios capable of operating on a 6.25 KHz channel spacing. Only GPH, DPH and DPHX portables and GMH and DMH mobiles are capable of operating on 6.25 KHz channel spacing assignments. Older LPH, EPH and EMH radios are only capable of operating on channels down to 12.5 KHz channel spacing.

Click here for more details:
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/docs...and_issues.pdf

[ssd]

Cleveland National Forest using P25 digital and so is El Dorado NF law net p25

[digitaljim6]

Hmmm.

USFS Region 5 covers California and Region 6 covers Oregon and Washington.
USFS Region Map

The requirement for narrowband equipment (analog or digital) on federal frequencies has been in place since January 1, 2005.
NTIA Red Book

The use of P25 by federal agencies (including Forests, Parks, Monuments, Recreation Areas) has been happening for years.
Browse the RR forums and database.

The FCC doesn't regulate federal government radio users.
National Telecommunications and Information Administration

The document cited is more than two years old.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/docs...and_issues.pdf


I would certainly trust an equipment vendor who has this much accurate information.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by digitaljim6

Hmmm.

USFS Region 5 covers California and Region 6 covers Oregon and Washington.
USFS Region Map

The requirement for narrowband equipment (analog or digital) on federal frequencies has been in place since January 1, 2005.
NTIA Red Book

The use of P25 by federal agencies (including Forests, Parks, Monuments, Recreation Areas) has been happening for years.
Browse the RR forums and database.

The FCC doesn't regulate federal government radio users.
National Telecommunications and Information Administration

The document cited is more than two years old.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/docs...and_issues.pdf


I would certainly trust an equipment vendor who has this much accurate information.

Thanks for the clarifications, I could not have said it better myself. This thread got my attention when I read the title that Region 6 covered California. This is a minor point as the direction for radio communications is national anyway. The specs for Forest Service radios include the ability to operate P25 and analog.

The concern for firefighting communications using digital is valid. The City of Phoenix is transitioning to digital trunked shortly, however, fireground will remain simplex and analog. The fireground frequencies are given a different designation such a "life critical" or something along those lines. Phoenix has had a tough time selling the fire department a digital trunked system and the current wording on their website speaks to this arrangement with fireground communications being different as a "transitional" period. I would bet that many or most of the fire department managers don't agree with that.

As a former USFS employee and firefighter I would be concerned about digital use on fires. While it is true that the background noise is eliminated the remaining signal is often unintelligible, and often in a worse way. I think it is easier for the brain to pull a weak signal out of the noise than it is to understand the distorted signal of digital. Digital seems to be an "all or nothing" type of a situation. I don't think cell phones have improved with digital and the vendors make claims of clarity and coverage that cannot be supported. VHF analog communications work well and I don't see the point of switching to digital, although the VHF is here to stay for wildland fire.

[radioprescott]

Originally Posted by Exsmokey

...The City of Phoenix is transitioning to digital trunked shortly, however, fireground will remain simplex and analog. The fireground frequencies are given a different designation such a "life critical" or something along those lines...

Phoenx uses the terms 'hazard zone' and 'non-hazard zone' Here's a link to their site.

PHOENIX FIRE DEPARTMENT 800MHz TRUNKED RADIO NETWORK

[avtarsingh]

i really dont understand the push to digital

it just doesnt work in remote areas

it may work fine in an urban environment with 10-20 sites simulcasting

you can listen to los rios digital on sac system to see it just doesnt work
i hear more "10-9 i cant read you " than actual conversation

sounds like the same people who pushed caltrans to 800 off low band what a a waste of time and money


still putting up 800 voters all over because the system doesnt work in the mountains

having vendors sell radios when they are not needed is kind of like a wolf selling straw houses to 3 little pigs and will cut 20% off cause they are a "great customer"

look what ma-com did in new york millions and billions being wasted when there's clearly no need for it

digital and fire fighting should never go together ..too much of a risk

[antfreq]

Originally Posted by avtarsingh

i really dont understand the push to digital

it just doesnt work in remote areas

it may work fine in an urban environment with 10-20 sites simulcasting

you can listen to los rios digital on sac system to see it just doesnt work
i hear more "10-9 i cant read you " than actual conversation

sounds like the same people who pushed caltrans to 800 off low band what a a waste of time and money


still putting up 800 voters all over because the system doesnt work in the mountains

having vendors sell radios when they are not needed is kind of like a wolf selling straw houses to 3 little pigs and will cut 20% off cause they are a "great customer"

look what ma-com did in new york millions and billions being wasted when there's clearly no need for it

digital and fire fighting should never go together ..too much of a risk

Folsom Dam Police ( Sac Sheriff contract ) used a digital talk group for a very short period of time. The "reception" was horrible.

[mikepdx]

Originally Posted by avtarsingh

i really dont understand the push to digital

sounds like the same people who pushed caltrans to 800 off low band what a a waste of time and money

still putting up 800 voters all over because the system doesnt work in the mountains

having vendors sell radios when they are not needed is kind of like a wolf selling straw houses to 3 little pigs and will cut 20% off cause they are a "great customer"

look what ma-com did in new york millions and billions being wasted when there's clearly no need for it

The money's not wasted if you're on the receiving end.

Vendors selling products to Government agencies when they are not needed is
AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE.