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Old 07-07-2010, 1:12 AM
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Default Kings Canyon-Sequoia National Park (KNP)

After spending 4 days in the KNP this last weekend scanning the federal VHF frequencies I can say for certain that I never heard any activity on any of the frequencies listed in the RR database for KNP. What gives with the database being so out of touch with the reality on the ground?

Frequencies logged:

163.7125 MHz - Some unidentified fire weather related traffic
164.7500 MHz - Lots of KNP law enforcement and admin traffic
164.8000 MHz - Ash Mtn. Fire (KNP) calling someone
168.6625 MHz - Misc. SQF crew activities
168.6750 MHz - SQF traffic
168.7750 MHz - SQF traffic
169.8750 MHz - SNF traffic
169.9250 MHz - SNF traffic
170.5750 MHz - SQF trafffic
171.4750 MHz - SNF traffic

I have a radio comm plan from SQF that's a couple years old, but it shows two main channels for KNP:

164.750 164.250 KNP Front Country
171.750 172.500 KNP Back Country

These frequencies jive more with what I heard this weekend than with what the RR database has. My ANF radio also has those same KNP frequencies, so I don't know where in the world those RR frequencies came from.

An interesting aside for campers with scanners: At 1500 hours (at least on busy weekends) KNP will broadcast campsite availability for each campground in the park on 164.750 MHz. You will hear something like, "Azalea, 3; Sunset, 5; Lodgepole, 2 ..."
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Old 07-07-2010, 2:57 AM
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The Calfire radio plan shows 164.7500 and 164.8000 .
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Old 07-10-2010, 3:30 AM
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Database updated, anybody have an input frequency for 164.80? Naming in the descriptions is also split between "Front Country"/"Back Country" or North/South Command. Know the official one?
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:39 PM
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Default Seq/Kings NP

My info shows
164.75-North net CMD-1 front country 164.25 input
164.8-South net CMD-2 back country 172.45 input
but I have not been there in years.

Ben
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Old 07-13-2010, 9:45 PM
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KNP is using digital (P25) for some stuff. I pick up a base on 162.1625, which would make it an input, on a regular basis. Various NACs for the individual repeaters. I cannot hear the output freq though.

Talk is typically campground related.

Edit: when someone uses 162.1625 they refer to it as "Back Country". I've heard repeater names like "Windy" and "Forgotten".
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Old 07-14-2010, 4:14 AM
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The KNP 1 and KNP 2 input frequencies are actually the same. Database corrected.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:23 AM
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I have some additional inside information on this and will share it whenever I get the time.
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Old 07-27-2010, 4:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaker6953 View Post
After spending 4 days in the KNP this last weekend scanning the federal VHF frequencies I can say for certain that I never heard any activity on any of the frequencies listed in the RR database for KNP. What gives with the database being so out of touch with the reality on the ground?

Frequencies logged:

163.7125 MHz - Some unidentified fire weather related traffic
164.7500 MHz - Lots of KNP law enforcement and admin traffic
164.8000 MHz - Ash Mtn. Fire (KNP) calling someone
168.6625 MHz - Misc. SQF crew activities
168.6750 MHz - SQF traffic
168.7750 MHz - SQF traffic
169.8750 MHz - SNF traffic
169.9250 MHz - SNF traffic
170.5750 MHz - SQF traffic
171.4750 MHz - SNF traffic

I have a radio comm plan from SQF that's a couple years old, but it shows two main channels for KNP:

164.750 164.250 KNP Front Country
171.750 172.500 KNP Back Country

These frequencies jive more with what I heard this weekend than with what the RR database has. My ANF radio also has those same KNP frequencies, so I don't know where in the world those RR frequencies came from.

An interesting aside for campers with scanners: At 1500 hours (at least on busy weekends) KNP will broadcast campsite availability for each campground in the park on 164.750 MHz. You will hear something like, "Azalea, 3; Sunset, 5; Lodgepole, 2 ..."
You have listed Sequoia National Forest frequencies under this thread "Kings Canyon-Sequoia National Park." First of all there are two National Parks involved here, Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park. Due to their proximity they are administered as one park unit and called "Sequoia-Kings Canyon National Parks. I detected that you were confusing the two when your mentioned that the frequencies listed for KNP were the same as some used by the Angeles. The NPS and USFS do not share frequency assignments.

Getting back to the list having Sequoia National Forest frequencies, remember that a National Forest is administered by the U.S. Forest Service and a National Park is administered by the National Park Service so your list contains two different animals.

The best information I have comes from a very reliable source (I can't explain any further) that shows the input for the front country repeaters as 164.250 with outputs of 164.800 for a repeater located at Milk Ranch and 164.750 for a repeater located at Park Ridge. This information is current as of 4/1/2010. It appears that they have voted receivers at each location which then is passed along to both repeaters for simultaneous transmission at each location.

For the last several years KNP has planned to change the above system to an output of 171.700 at each location with a common input of 165.600. The voting system feature will probably be retained however the repeaters will simulcast and phased (I don't recall if this is the correct term) to eliminate repeater wars.

The backcountry net has repeaters with an output of 171.025 with an input of 164.475. Repeaters for this net are located at: Evolution, Windy, Mt Gould, Palmer, Paradise, and Forgotten. I took a trip to L.A. and back last week listening to the backcountry net each way. This net is now digital leading to a tough copy from Mt. Gould, which in the past was a great copy from Big Pine to just north of Lone Pine. I used to be able to hear Forgotten also but no more.

The change to the new backcountry frequencies occurred in 2008, so your comm plan copy did not show this change.

The 166.6625 frequency is the new "R5 Project Net" and replaces 164.150. I was going to submit a database change along with a thread alerting everyone, but haven't had time.

The Sierra NF frequencies listed 169.875 is the input for the 171.475 repeater output and is called the "Forest Admin Net." 169.935 is the input for the 172.225 repeater output and is called the "Forest Emergency Net." You may note that the San Bernardino NF used the same two pairs.

I have attempted to keep the database correct using my very accurate source but have noted people submitting changes to it that are not consistent with this source. Sometimes I believe that these submissions are based on misunderstandings about what has been heard.

As for your confusion of National Forests with National Parks, this is a common misunderstanding. If you note the differences in uniform colors and logos for the two agencies you should be more aware of the fact they are two different agencies. The entrance signs for each are very different as well.
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Old 07-27-2010, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exsmokey View Post
It appears that they have voted receivers at each location which then is passed along to both repeaters for simultaneous transmission at each location.
Strangely enough I often hear the voter click at the end of the digital comms I hear on 162.1625.

Any idea why they ID as "Sierra"?
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Old 07-30-2010, 9:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneH View Post
Strangely enough I often hear the voter click at the end of the digital comms I hear on 162.1625.

Any idea why they ID as "Sierra"?
162.1625 must be a link or something, but normally only 400 MHz frequencies are used for links. In fact, policy has prohibited use of VHF High for link use for a few years. So the use of this frequency is certainly a mystery to me. I wish I could spend some time monitoring on the west side so I could figure this out. I wonder, if like so many other parks, that this is a law enforcement net and now the 164.800/164.750 frontcountry net will be used for adminstration and EMS. Try listening for traffic content and using the unit designator information I have provided below. That may help us solve this mystery.

The callsign for the Dispatch Office located at the Ash Meadows park HQ is KMC-735. Each office within the complex ID's with a letter phonetic following 735. For example, the fire management office ID's as 735 Fox, the maintenance office ID's as 735 Mike, and the visitor center ID's as 735 India. Dispatch ID's as 735 Dispatch. The chief ranger's office ID's as 735 Alpha and the entrance stations as Charlie. The resource management office ID's as Bravo. In the case of the ID "Sierra" this is the Sierra District Office.

The Sierra District is the wilderness portion of the parks. The Sierra District has two sub-districts, Atwell Mill in Mineral King, and Sierra Crest ct that used to have its office in Bishop until that position was cut, reduced and grade (pay scale) and relocated to Ash Mountain . The Kaweah district has two sub-districts, Giant Forest and Ash Mountain. The Giant Forest sub-district office is located at Lodgepole and all their ID's start with 743 as that base station is KMC-743. The third ranger district is Kings River with two sub-districts, Cedar Grove and Grant Grove. Cedar Grove ID's with 740 as the base station there is KMC-740. Finally, Grant Grove ID's with 736 as they have a callsign of KMC-736.

The unit identifier system is different than most national parks and national forests in that the first number in the 3 number series does not ID function or ranger district, rather it refers to an area. 1 refers to Evolution Valley, LeConte Canyon, and Simpson Lake. 2 refers to Upper Basin, Charlotte Lake, and the middle fork of the Kings River. 3 refers to Cedar Grove. 5 refers to Grant Grove, Roaring River, and the Kings River Maintenance District (the King's Canyon NP portion of 2 park admin unit). 6 refers to Lodgepole, Giant Forest, Pear Lake, and Bearpaw Meadow. 7 refers to Ash Mountain, the north and south forks of the Kaweah River, and the Sequoia Maintenance District (the Sequoia NP portion). 8 refers to Mineral King, Atwell Mill, and Hockett Meadow. 9 is a functional designation for admin, resources, fire management, etc.

The second number refers to the function with 0 for management, 1 for a protection ranger, 2 for resources/research, 3 for interpretation, 4 for frontcountry maintenance, 5 for backcountry maintenance, 6 for fire management, 7 for Devils Postpile National Monument), 8 administration, and 9 for communications. The third number is the person's position in the organization. All the functions with a number of 6 or more use a 1st number of 9 as they are not assigned to specific areas.

And yes, Devils Postpile is administered by Sequoia Kings, not Yosemite. The former sub-district ranger position that worked out of Bishop (in the BLM Bishop Field Office) used to supervise this monument. Yosemite would be closer in the summer, but much further in the winter for the permanent year round positions held by people living in the Mammoth area.

I know this answers your question Wayne, and hopefully provides additional information helpful to all.
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:46 PM
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Thanks. It will help to identify who exactly is using that freq. I typically hear the dispatch ID'ing as "735" but I'll pay attention more to what accompanies it.
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Old 08-26-2010, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exsmokey View Post
You have listed Sequoia National Forest frequencies under this thread "Kings Canyon-Sequoia National Park."
Because of it's close proximity to KNP, SQF and SNF traffic is received well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exsmokey View Post
First of all there are two National Parks involved here, Sequoia National Park and Kings Canyon National Park. Due to their proximity they are administered as one park unit and called "Sequoia-Kings Canyon National Parks. I detected that you were confusing the two when your mentioned that the frequencies listed for KNP were the same as some used by the Angeles. The NPS and USFS do not share frequency assignments.
I don't believe I've ever mentioned any relationship between KNP and the ANF, nor any shared frequency assignments between the NPS and USFS. I even had to scan my older posts to make sure. However, the SQF radio programming does in fact have KNP frequencies in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exsmokey View Post
Getting back to the list having Sequoia National Forest frequencies, remember that a National Forest is administered by the U.S. Forest Service and a National Park is administered by the National Park Service so your list contains two different animals.
On this trip I was located in an SQF campground about 2 miles from the edge of the KNP while scanning KNP frequencies. During the day I traveled in and out of both while moving about. That's why I was able to hear both equally well. I was listing everything I picked up in the interest of thoroughness, and to illustrate that nothing was heard on the frequencies listed in the RR database for KNP.

My apologies for making my post more confusing that necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exsmokey View Post
As for your confusion of National Forests with National Parks, this is a common misunderstanding. If you note the differences in uniform colors and logos for the two agencies you should be more aware of the fact they are two different agencies. The entrance signs for each are very different as well.
There is no confusion as I work for one on a weekly basis and not the other. One is administered by the Interior Department and one by Agriculture, and with extremely divergent land management philosophies.

As always, your information is very helpful and appreciated.
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Old 08-26-2010, 1:00 PM
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Thanks for the explanation. So many people are confused by the difference between the various land management agencies, most often confusing the U.S. Forest Service with the National Park Service. I've encountered this so many times in my life that sometimes I assume people are confused. When it comes to unit names in the southern Sierra the confusion abounds. Try explaining that there is a Sequoia National Park, Sequoia National Forest, and a Sequoia National Monument that is a part of the Sequoia National Forest since the bulk of National Monuments are administered by the National Park Service. There is confusion between a National Monument and a National Park even when both are administered National Park Service.

Now mix in CDF and California State Parks and additional confusion occurs. I can't tell you how many times people would walk up to me and ask me if things were tough while the California legislature could not pass a budget. Now mix in the California Department of Fish and Game with their role on National Forest lands as opposed to their lack of jurisdiction on lands administered by the National Park Service. The confusion is understandable as none of us can keep track of everything and we aren't interested in every topic.

Early in my career while working on the Kaibab NF in Arizona I was cornered by an irate woman who was complaining about the campground she had stayed in a couple of days prior. Her limited knowledge of geography didn't help in this case. When I asked whose campground it was, referring to the agency involved, she kept telling me "it was rangers," and further berated me for not knowing what I was talking about. After using a great deal of patience and my knowledge of geography I determined a Mohave County regional park campground was involved.

In another case on the Toiyabe National Forest near Bridgeport, California I had engine crews periodically wash out restrooms with their high pressure hoses. Rather than travel a couple of miles to the nearest hydrant, they drafted out of the creek next to the campground. When they placed the four inch black high pressure hose with the large galvanized screen attached to the end to begin pumping out of the creek people would run from all around to put their fish hooks as close to the end of the hose as possible. Seems they were confusing our engine with a DFG fish planting truck. This didn't happen just once, but over a period of months, year after year.

More confusion comes into the picture when mutual aid agreements and other arrangements come into play. Forest Service LEO's and Forest Protection Officers can and do enforce most of the Fish and Game code as well as the CA Vehicle Code (CVC) dealing with Off Highway Vehicles. LEO's are state peace officers and can and do enforce penal code and the rest of the CVC under certain circumstances. Forest Service Fire Protection Technicians (drive patrol engines) when trained and designated to enforce California Public Resource Code sections relating to fire and fire prevention. For example, they make inspections and take enforcement actions on private lands within the boundaries of National Forest to enforce defensible property requirements. All of this state jurisdiction enforcement depends of local situations such as land ownership mix, workloads, distances from fire stations and other agency offices, and existence of local fire districts.

Quote:
I don't believe I've ever mentioned any relationship between KNP and the ANF, nor any shared frequency assignments between the NPS and USFS. I even had to scan my older posts to make sure. However, the SQF radio programming does in fact have KNP frequencies in it.
All natural resource agencies have frequencies of other like agencies in their radios. When I worked for the Forest Service on the Inyo NF's Mammoth Ranger District I had every National Forest and National Park unit in California in my truck radio. I had all the BLM Districts in California and frequencies for many CDF Units, as well as their command and some of their tactical frequencies. The only thing I didn't have as far as natural resource agencies was the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and California State Parks, with the latter not being possible due to their use of 800 MHz.

I had a couple situations where I would have liked to have Caltrans direct communication capability when we were doing burnouts along state highways, in particular when doing a burnout along I-5 on the ANF. Thank goodness L.A. County Fire is equipped with VHF handhelds

I don't understand what you mean by the relationship between KNP and the ANF.

I should also clarify that federal agencies do not share frequency assignments other than those assignments made by the IRAC (Interagency Radio Advisory Committee or Commission) for government wide use such as the so called "NIFC frequencies" and the V and U Calls/Tacs. All other arrangements where an agency in one department uses the frequencies of another agency, for example, LEO's on the Cleveland National Forest (Dept of Agriculture) using Border Patrol (Dept. of Homeland Security) frequencies, are authorized by memorandums of agreements (i.e. mutual aid agreements) between agencies of different departments. Intradepartmental use does not require such agreements as IRAC assignments are made at the department level. Some of these agreements can be local (such as the one between the Inyo NF and KNP) or more often at the department level such as the Interior/Agriculture/Defense fire agreement.

The differences in land management between the U.S. Forest Service and the National Park Service can, at times, be philosophical, but more importantly are dictated by laws passed by the U.S. Congress. The differences can also be the result of budget authorizations, House and Senate committee direction, regulations signed by department secretaries, and presidential executive orders. Agencies are not able to exercise much discretion using philosophy. For example, the Forest Service, as a result of Reagan administration direction, began cutting about twice timber as they knew the data and good planning indicated the forests could sustain. This was a violation of several laws including the Multiple Use - Sustained Yield Act of 1964 and the overwhelming input made during the creation of National Forest Land and Resource Management Plans in the early 1980's. The result was the spotted owl crisis, which the Forest Service, when left to their own expertise in accordance to several other laws the administration chose to violate, could have avoided.

The above is my understanding of the situation after more than two decades of working for the Forest Service in four states.
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:22 PM
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I've also found a P25 repeater on 169.6250. I don't know what the NAC is though. It's much harder to hear than 162.1625 for me. I've heard it called the "Paradise" repeater. Places like "Timbur Gap" "Cliff Creek" "Franklin Pass" and "Redwood Meadow" have been heard.

It's got a funky "roger beep" at the end. I've yet to hear any analog or what sounds like patching(i.e., not a link). It sounds strictly P25.

What's funny is Bureau of Reclamation @ New Melones Dam uses it as an input.

Regarding 162.1625.....I was on 80 just south of Vacaville at the rise and heard it with NAC 707. I thought that was odd it could make it that far.
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Old 09-02-2010, 12:29 PM
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Yep, Cleveland Nat Forest has the bee-boop courtesy tone on the P25 side of Law Net down here too....the system is still mixed mode. Some conversations are 50/50 digital and analog.
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Old 09-03-2010, 2:20 AM
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I think the "bee-boop" tone is a Daniels repeater thing, which is a common DOI used repeater.
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Old 07-01-2011, 10:30 PM
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Default Kings NP

I noticed that KNP is using 162.1625 in P25 format. It is a base station as Wayne said in a prior post. I notice the dispatcher on this frequency is repeated in FM mode out onto the channel 1 repeater (164.750). They must be transitioning into P25 but running mixed modes. The backcountry repeater is now P25 (171.025)out. I don't know what the input is for this one. The audio on the P25 channels seems clearer and much more consistent than on the FM channels even though it's processed P25.Looks like I can finally get some digital use out of my P25 scanner in the Fresno County and surrounding Sierra areas now.

Anybody else have any further updates to Kings NP?
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Old 07-04-2011, 8:39 AM
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What ambulances and fire trucks do they operate? I think they had 1 or 2 structural fire engines in the past - dont know if they still do. They used to have a couple of summer firemen who used small brush trucks IIRC - they were probably expected to do both structural and wildland firefighting.
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Old 07-04-2011, 7:40 PM
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What ambulances and fire trucks do they operate? I think they had 1 or 2 structural fire engines in the past - dont know if they still do. They used to have a couple of summer firemen who used small brush trucks IIRC - they were probably expected to do both structural and wildland firefighting.
They have Type III wildland engines, one at Grant Grove and one either near Lodgepole or down at Ash Mtn. The 'Arrowhead" Interagency Hotshot Crew at the Swale Work Center near Grant Grove. The Type III may be stationed at that work center also. They also have Helicopter 552 at Ash Mtn.

In general fire management staffs the wildland engines on a daily basis during fire season and protection rangers bring out the structural engines on a as needed basis. Protection rangers are expected to be firefighters, law enforcement officers, EMT's, search and rescue team members and attempt to answer the tons of questions all rangers, no matter what agency, are asked on a daily basis.

Hey Ranger! Why does lightning hit Morro Rock so much? Did General Sherman plant that big tree? I have these baby birds that seemed lost and they are in this box, can I give them to you? Where can I go to get a good picture of a bear? I think it's terrible that you are letting so many fires burn without putting them out, I'm writing my congressman to demand that you put them out. Why is it called Marble Falls, did marble get mined there? Is there a watchtower on top of the Watchtower? I just saw a wolf cross the road in front of our car, what species is it? There was a 800 pound brown bear in the campground last night, is that some kind of record? Where do I get a permit to build a cabin up here? My dad saw an moose at Moose Lake when he was a kid, how come there aren't moose in the park now? I wanted to be a ranger when I was younger. My wife's uncle was a ranger or worked for forestry, do you know him? Why can't you just build a tram to the top of Mt. Whitney? Can't you build a straighter road to get here? I want to drive to Bishop and I know there is a road that takes us right there, can you tell me where to turn?

Finally Q: Ranger where is the tree you drive through? A: Pick anyone you want.

I spent one summer working in Sequoia-Kings, if you couldn't tell. Crap that was in 1971, how did 40 years pass?

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Old 07-05-2011, 11:45 AM
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Is the transition to P25 across the National Park system being phased in? I've heard the same mixed-mode stuff here on the Santa Monica Mountains NP, and am starting to hear it on the Channel Islands NP channels too. Thier system sounds a lot like the Yosemite NP system, with an odd squelch-tale kind of sound when units un-key on the repeater.
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