PG&E Wide Area MPT-1327 System - Post your findings here!

[WayneH]

I've had some success ID'ing a few sites by decoding the morse code that's mixed over the control channel. The 454MHz channels come back to the "PS" equivalent licenses, which don't designate much other than a market where they can operate. Since some sites also use standard IG freqs you can decode the morse at the end and get their license, which I've been able to do.

5091 [454.13125] ID's as WPVE247 with a voice channel 451.325 and 463.8500 that ID as WQPJ911. That license is for Clayton Hill. But based on the coverage it seems like it's Mt Diablo.

5329 [464.8000] WQNY439 is Deadwood Pk in Madera.

5389 [461.875] WQNL782 is Mt Bullion, which I'm confident is correct.

5391 [454.09375] WPVE246 Based on coverage and rough DF'ing this is Mount Oso in Stanislaus

53C1 [451.1125] WQMJ358 is Mt Reba in Alpine. I'm pretty sure the loc is correct.

5421 [461.1750] WQOC364 is Ruby Bluff in Sierra. I think the loc is right. Associated voice channels ref this license also.


I've also found a new zone which is 14. SysID 5681 on 454.49375. (Zone 14, Site 1)

When I get some more time I'm going to update my list above with new info and what's been confirmed. So far my original band plan has worked to convert frequencies correctly.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by inigo88

For what it's worth, word is that PG&E is using a TaitNet MPT (or MPT-IP) system, and it is indeed over 100 sites. Tait specifically markets versions of this system to public utilities, and has a website dedicated to it below:

TaitNet MPT 1327 Product Information - Tait Communications

That means this system must be based on the TN5100 network node, which can support up to 960 sites (with up to 24 channels per site). (Source)
From what I understand, this is the Tait MPT-1327 equivalent of a 'Zone Controller' on a Motorola trunking system.

Repeaters at each site are likely TB8100s, and mobiles and portables are likely TM8255s and TP8140s respectively. Brochures for all the above are available on the aforementioned TaitNet MPT-IP product information page.

Also, WayneH advised me that he caught a voice call recently where the individual radio ID matched the four-digit ID number of the person making the call. This agrees with what I've observed on the San Diego Gas & Electric trunking system (a Motorola Type II 900 MHz system) which also uses radio IDs that are matched to the truck ID number used over the air. I believe this is a preferred practice for utility customers as it simplifies the process of doing a unit-to-unit individual call.

This is also good news, because I had read up on many MPT-1327 systems using the MPT-1343 numbering for talkgroups and radio IDs, which requires a conversion to be made between the MPT-1327 ID and the actual group/radio ID. Thankfully that isn't the case with this system, which makes things easier to keep track of.

On the Southern California Edison Motorola Smartzone trunked system the radio in the vehicles has a number and an abbreviation of that number (the last four digits of a 6 or 7 digit number) is used to identify the vehicle it is in. There appears to be a hierarchy system of assignments based on rank and the district number so that it can be tied back to numbers assigned to districts and their organization. It is a fascinating system and has crystal clear coverage system wide. The microwave link system is first class.

Each district is assigned three talkgroups: field service representatives, operations (troublemen), and construction. Each substation, which control distribution in a given, relatively small area have a talkgroups as well. The majority of the subs are staffed 24 hours per day and manipulate circuit switches when repairs are being made These functions are part of the distribution organization of the company. There are other talkgroups for various service area wide functions such as the transmission function, nuclear plant, security, air ops, tacticals (presumably for disasters and wide area delivery problems), engineering and administrative personnel, among some other odds and ends.

In snow country troublemen are heroes. They work often in winter storm conditions with 50-70 mph winds and snow falling at 4" per hour plus during rime ice periods that weigh down lines and break cross arms. They have snowcats equipped with cherry pickers and extend them up to turn off switches as well as all the other tasks necessary to restore power. This in conditions where I can't see the end of my driveway. The entire town was without power during one storm that closed the highway out of town mid day on Sunday of a three day holiday weekend in January. 500 cars were stuck on State 203 between town and U.S. 395. Everyone in those vehicles had to be transported to town and shelters by snowcats from Mammoth Mountain and the Forest Service. In these conditions SCE troublemen were doing recon and repair on the one circuit coming into town.

For those of you who have not listened to electric utility operations the terms will be difficult to understand. I searched the Internet for a couple of hours one day and found a manual of the terms used by most electric utilities in the U.S.

The best feature of the system is that district operational talkgroups are linked in each of the four Distribution Operation Centers" (DOCs and pronounced "dock" on the air. I can hear most of operations talkgroups for the Northern DOC (Ventura) area. Thus I can hear the trouble calls resulting from incoming storms involving the west side of the southern Sierra. It gives me some idea of what a storm is doing in other parts of the state and often before it arrives in the eastern Sierra. Each DOC can control the entire service area and at night operations are consolidated into one or two DOCs and additional talkgroups are linked.

I asked the question many days ago in this thread as to how PG & E is organized. Everyone is going a mile a minute trying to figure out how system functions electronically and haven't spent time yet as to what the procedure will be. Will there be one central dispatch point or is the service area divided into smaller units, each with dispatch point? If the PG & E system has similarities with the SCE system it will be a good system to listen to, not only to hear the procedures and workloads of the company, but for needed real time information when located within a service interruption area. With a service area as large as PG & E has along with delivering natural gas as well, this will be a must system for the files I've written for central and northern California.

[TelcomJunkie]

Down in Bakersfield, I have been able to pick up several sites,

52C9 451.0875 (WQME374), Double Mtn (South of Tehachapi)
52D1 463.3625 (WQNP293), Pampa Peak (East of Bakersfield)

Those sites are showing the following neighbors, though I haven't been able to receive them locally.
52C1 461.6875 (WQLR367), Goverment Peak (Randsburg area)
52E9 463.4500 (WQNH392), Joaquin Ridge (Northwest of Coalinga)
53E1 451.5750 (WQNK444), Las Yeguas Peak

I've had both Unitracker and Trunkview running for several hours between yesterday and today and haven't logged a call on either of the two sites I can pick up so I'm not sure how actively they're using it down here yet.

[inigo88]

Hey Fred, here's a thread from a couple years ago containing the complete listing of PG&E's old VHF frequencies. (WayneH is the man as usual for posting it. )

PG&E VHF Frequency List

Up until recently, PG&E used a system of non-repeated VHF mountaintop remote base stations for their electric ops. Gas was literally all over the place - at one time they were on a statewide 800 MHz LTR system (which didn't last very long), sometimes they were on UHF, sometimes lowband. In my area gas didn't use radios at all and stuck to cell phones.

Given how spread out their radio use was, and the remote base nature of the VHF system for the electric side, it was difficult to ever really document truck unit numbers or get an idea for the big picture of how they were organized. Half the time it was difficult to even track what was going on, since 99% of the time you'd only hear the dispatcher on their remote base transmitter.

I can tell you that PG&E dispatch is not centralized. In Marin county, the local PG&E dispatcher IDed as Ignacio - presumably short for the Ignacio substation in Novato. They do have a central control center in downtown San Francisco however which may play an increased role on the radio now that they have access to such a huge networked system, but you'll definitely hear the local guy at the larger substations dispatching the same way Southern CA Edison and SDG&E do it.

[inigo88]

Fred, here's another thread on PG&E's old VHF system (which is probably still in use in much of their coverage areas as they cut over to the new system):

Pg&e

Notice that some gas ops were on the VHF remote base system, and some electric ops weren't (i.e. Santa Cruz on lowband).

[Markinsac]

I did a download from the FCC on all of the PG&E "YG" systems - 152 of them. I took the most important tables and put them into an Access Database (have the locations, frequencies on locations, call sign, etc.) if anyone can use it to help determine the systems. I'm better at putting the data into the databases than I am at making reports from it.

Contact me on the system if you're interested. I have it in Access 2007

[rubicon05]

Wayne, what program or software are you using to decode the morse?

[inigo88]

If you can record the morse code IDs into an mp3 or wav file and post them here (in a zip file) one of us can decode them. Honestly I just google image search "morse code" and look at a table of all the letters/numbers and compare it to what I hear. For faster morse code, I'd recommend downloading "Audacity." You should be able to slow down the playback or even just see the dots and dashes by looking at the waveform.

Have you had any luck verifying some of your 454 frequencies using the 6.25 KHz spacing?

[WayneH]

I've managed to ID several of the sites. I'm updating the DB as I get time. I'll be adding groups to the Wiki until I get them ID'd.

rubicon, I use Audacity and do it by eye. Since Audacity will do timer recording (under Transport) I set it to 15 min, let it record and walk away. Then I go back over the recording and look for the code. It will be obvious compared to the data signal. Based on the durations shown it should be obvious which is a dot or dash. I can post a screenshot if it helps.

Also, TelcomJunkie helped me out confirming it and it looks like PG&E accidentally duplicated a site ID. It's 53E1 which for me is up in Placer County on 454.46875. For him it's on 451.575. It's even ID'd in the neighbors which is odd.

[WayneH]

Originally Posted by Markinsac

I did a download from the FCC on all of the PG&E "YG" systems - 152 of them. <snip>

Thanks. I dumped all the UHF in to a spreadsheet and use the filter to find by whatever I need. That way I can see multiple entries at once. If I have multiple freqs for a site I can filter for them and look for the site that shows up for both. I'm not sure if Access can help me there.



And Inigo, as far as I can tell PG&E is matching their licenses which is contrary to your thought of them running like an LTR system.

[WayneH]

Here's my most up to date list with possible site locations also:

Site ID	Chan 	Freq          	Z	S	Site Name
5081	444	464.187500	2	1	
5089	168	454.093750	2	2	
5091	171	454.131250*	2	3	Clayton Hill
5099	205	454.556250*	2	4	Sunol Ridge
50A1	204	454.543750+	2	5	
50A9	703	454.393750*	2	6	
50B1	170	454.118750*	2	7	Mt Tam
50C1	172	454.143750*	2	9	
50D1	196	454.443750*	2	11	
50D9	169	454.106250*	2	12	
50E1	195	454.431250*	2	13	Rocky Ridge
50E9	171	454.131250	2	14	
50F1	199	454.481250	2	15	
50F9	197	454.456250*	2	16	
5109	206	454.568750*	3	2	Sonoma Mtn
5111	464	464.437500	3	3	
5119	402	463.662500	3	4	
5189	436	464.087500+	4	2	?Fremont Pk
5191	356	462.425000	4	3	?Tassajera Pk
5199	197	454.456250	4	4	
51B1	442	464.162500+	4	7	?Soledad Pk
51B9	306	461.800000+	4	8	?Williams Hill
51D1	84	452.050000	4	11	?Black Butte or Davis Pk
52C1	297	461.687500	6	9	?Government Pk
52C9	7	451.087500+	6	10	?Double Mtn
52D1	378	463.362500+	6	11	?Pampa Pk
52D9	16	451.200000	6	12	?Pelato Pk
52E9	385	463.450000	6	14	?Joaquin Ridge
5309	494	464.812500	7	2	?Beach Camp Valve House
5311	313	461.887500	7	3	
5319	8	451.100000	7	4	?Bear Mtn - Fresno
5321	382	463.412500*	7	5	?Meadow Lakes
5329	493	464.800000*	7	6	Deadwood Pk
5389	312	461.875000*	8	2	Mt Bullion
5391	168	454.093750*	8	3	Mt Oso
5399	204	454.543750*	8	4	Mt Vaca
53A1	192	454.393750*	8	5	
53A9	168	454.093750*	8	6	
53B1	170	454.118750	8	7	
53B9	378	463.362500*	8	8	
53C1	9	451.112500*	8	9	Mt Reba
53C9	202	454.518750	8	10	
53D1	194	454.418750*	8	11	Telegraph Hill
53D9	199	454.481250*	8	12	
53E1	198	454.468750*	8	13	Tiger Creek Forebay
53F1	167	454.081250*	8	15	
53F9	202	454.518750*	8	16	
5409	465	464.450000*	9	2	Drum Powerhouse Forebay
5411	436	464.087500*	9	3	Osborne Hill
5419	205	454.556250*	9	4	
5421	256	461.175000*	9	5	Ruby Bluff
5431	200	454.493750*	9	7	Bear Mtn - Calaveras
5439	205	454.556250	9	8	
5481	202	454.518750*	10	1	
54B9	199	454.481250	10	8	
54C1	86	452.075000*	10	9	?Flea Mtn
54C9	96	452.200000	10	10	?Lower Bucks Lake
54D1	477	464.600000	10	11	?Red Hill
54D9	198	454.468750	10	12	
54E1	200	454.493750	10	13	
55C1		461.837500+	12	9	
5621	194	454.418750*	13	5	
5631	171	454.131250	13	7	
5681	200	454.493750	14	1

If it has an * next to it I personally verified it. If it has a + then someone else has verified it. If it has nothing then it was seen as a neighbor.

As far as the band plan goes, mine it still fairly correct though I'm not so sure 454 starts at 162. 162 and 163 are in use as voice channels so I need to verify what freq they actually are.

This is 66 sites...only about 40+ more to go!

[rubicon05]

listening to 454.09375, caught this WPVE273, see if that turns up anything. if it does i found software to decode the morse. site id of 53a9

[rubicon05]

woohoo, i was able to recieve 464.0875 morse of wqoe287, matches database, using mrp40 morse decoder, set @ 19wpm, and set the red cross bars @ 410hz in the box @ the right with the red letters. site id 5411

[TelcomJunkie]

In addition to several you've confirmed already, I was able to pick up 52E9 and 5319 today while roaming around near the Corcoran/Hanford area.

I can pick up 5311 around a pretty wide area but it sounds like constant machine gun fire when I tune it up, nothing ever decodes on it.

[rubicon05]

454.4875 site 54b9 wpve285

[rubicon05]

454.5000 site 54e1 wpve286

[rubicon05]

454.55625 wpve288 site 5419

[rubicon05]

excuse some of my freqs to site numbers, scanner doesnt always stop on correct ones.

[WayneH]

Originally Posted by rubicon05

woohoo, i was able to recieve 464.0875 morse of wqoe287, matches database, using mrp40 morse decoder, set @ 19wpm, and set the red cross bars @ 410hz in the box @ the right with the red letters. site id 5411

Too bad the software is $50 and times out after 30 days. But thanks for that license as I don't have to try and get it now.

If you let TrunkView run on any of the sites (best time is during business hours) you can receive we can use the voice channels to figure them out. Post them here when you get them.

[rubicon05]

WIRELESS TELECOMMUNICATIONS BUREAU SEEKS COMMENT ON REQUEST BY PACIFIC GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY FOR WAIVERS TO PERMIT IMPLEMENTATION OF WIDE-AREA LAND MOBILE RADIO SYSTEM USING PART 22 AND 90 SPECTRUM | FCC.gov

check this out if you havent seen it yet, has lots of call signs listed