PG&E Wide Area MPT-1327 System - Post your findings here!

[WayneH]

Hopefully this will shed some light on the 454MHz channels. PG&E purchased blocks of 454MHz which are typically licensed for paging, so there are only market areas and not specific locations. These are the licenses, their blocks of frequencies and their counties of operation. PG&E can use these frequencies wherever they want and however they want in their associated counties. This is what's really made this system possible for operating throughout Northern California, as it would have been close to impossible to coordinate (or would need a zillion sites) for such a large area on the standard IG freqs.

WPVQ295-302: 454.04375, 454.05625, 454.11875-454.20625[8], 454.29375, 454.30625, 454.41875, 454.43125, 454.46875, 454.48125
Counties: Lassen, Plumas, Sierra, Alpine, Mono, Inyo[CA], Washoe, Storey, Douglas, Carson City, Humboldt, Pershing, Churchill, Elko, Lander, Eureka, White Pine[NV]

WPVQ321: 454.64375, 454.65625
Counties: Madera, Fresno, Kings, Tulare

WPVE245-253, 255-265: 454.01875, 454.03125, 454.09375-454.23125[12], 454.26875-454.30625[4], 454.39375-454.65625[22]
Counties: Humboldt, Trinity, Mendocino, Lake, Sonoma, Napa, Marin, Solano, San Francisco, Contra Costa, San Joaquin, Calaveras, San Mateo, Alameda, Stanislaus, Tuolumne, Santa Cruz, Santa Clara, Merced, Mariposa, Monterey, San Benito

WPVE271-280, 282-292, WPVQ339: 454.01875-454.13125[10], 454.16875, 454.18125, 454.21875-454.30625[8], 454.34375, 454.35625, 454.39375-454.65625[22]
Counties: Glenn, Butte, Colusa, Sutter, Yuba, Nevada, Yolo, Placer, Sac, El Dorado, Amador

WPZG955-967: 454.01875, 454.03125, 454.09375-454.20625[10], 454.41875-454.58125[14]
Counties: Klamath, Siskiyou, Modoc, Shasta, Tehama
_____________________________________________

I've started adding info to the Wiki as I catch voice traffic on the system so don't forget to check there and update if you can. Or if the Wiki code is a pain then post it here and I'll add it.

I've also been going over the raw data in hopes to improve UniTrunker's tracking ability of MPT-1327. So if you use it don't forget to check for updates every so often. Adjacent site decoding should be available soon. I'm working on finding more stuff as I get time.

[rubicon05]

452.175 is out of my range, i get nothing but static.

[inigo88]

Per a recent submission, 461.8375 MHz is the control channel for a site on Shasta Bally, which is 13 miles west of Redding. Is anyone far north enough to confirm the site number with trunkview?

FCC license: WQNU983 (PACIFIC GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY) FCC Callsign Details

[kma371]

more sites I was able to decode, didnt see them listed. sorry if dupes...
these are monitored from the east bay.

53F9 / 454.5125
5099 CH 205
50A1 CH 204
50C1 CH 172
50E1 CH 195
50F9 CH 197

50C1 / 454.14375
5089 CH 168
50B1 CH 170
50D9 CH 169
50F9 CH 197

50A9 / 454.39375
5081 CH 444
50B1 CH 170
50D1 CH 196
5109 CH 206
5119 CH 402

50F9 / 454.45625
5089 CH 168
5099 CH 205
50B1 CH 170
50C1 CH 172
50D9 CH 169

53F9 / 454.51875
5099 CH 205
50A1 CH 204
50C1 CH 172
50E1 CH 195
50F9 CH 197

50A1 / 454.54375
5089 CH 168
50F9 CH 197
5189 CH 436
5199 CH 197
53F9 CH 202

[kma371]

Originally Posted by Unitrunker

Be sure to use headphone audio, not discriminator audio. Most use a CTCSS tone which ruins decoding for discriminator audio.

Just saw this but, FWIW, I used discriminator audio and had no issues.

[WayneH]

I've been doing some monitoring of the traffic and have found a few observations...

It's pretty common to see multi-site calling. I see it a lot for the Stockton DO groups. I haven't confirmed whether it requires a registration or not (similar to SmartZone).

The prefix 0-xxxx does appear to be Gas. I heard someone on 0-6101 answer as Gas Control.

The group ranges start around 6xxx but the lowest I've observed is 6101. Anything less is a mobile radio or what's called a line unit (it's a fixed connection like a dispatcher would have). Since private/individual calls are not announced as such if you see a call that shows something less than 6000 then it's a private call.

There seems to be a third prefix of 2-xxxx. I'm not sure where or what it's for but I see the registration rejections out in the valley. Usually 0-07xx. Maybe something specific to the Bay Area?

The radios don't have alias names for the groups. They are actually in the radio as the group ID. They are grouped in zones though. I think the zone is the third digit. So 6754 is in Zone 7.

Stockton DO seems to jump around in group ID ranges. I've heard them as low as 6753 up to 6761.

The groups in the 1-69xx range appear to be for Construction. 1-67xx could be Troublemen. 1-65xx could be Hydroelectric. For 0-xxxx I've only seen 61xx and 65xx. Gas Ops doesn't seem to have been migrated as much as Electric. Line Units appear to be <1000 in range.

For those that aren't familiar with MPT any ID higher than 8100 is a special code used to signify an event. For example, 8185 means a site registration (aka affiliation). 8189 means a radio with one prefix is calling another (i.e., 0-xxx calls 1-xxxx). There are others that are assigned and there are a few that are "spares". Those are up to the system operator to define. For this system I see 8136 which seems like the mobile requests to leave the site. I believe it sees the adjacent site announcement and asks if it can leave.

The CTCSS tone 196.6 is an on or off feature of MPT. It was specifically chosen as a side-carrier for all transmissions on this system. It's not specific to all MPT systems. It serves the purpose of your typical conventional CTCSS tone in that it keeps off wrong system users.

[norcalscan]

Originally Posted by inigo88

Per a recent submission, 461.8375 MHz is the control channel for a site on Shasta Bally, which is 13 miles west of Redding. Is anyone far north enough to confirm the site number with trunkview?

FCC license: WQNU983 (PACIFIC GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY) FCC Callsign Details

Hi Inigo. I don't get on these forums much (requires me to go to it rather than it come to me), but I'll try to get back more since yahoo groups is rather dead. Found this thread and interested in helping in Shasta Tehama area. Just searched the range from Red Bluff and the only MPT CC I got was 461.8375, as you found, with a signal strength as expected for Shasta Bally to me. I would expect a site on Tuscan Buttes but I guess not. Wow, Tuscan is a huge pge site for gas and elec and had one of the short lived LTR sites. I'll keep listening for one to pop up.

Never touched trunk view but I'll poke around and play and report back. 2 kids now so slow turnaround.

[inigo88]

Originally Posted by norcalscan

Never touched trunk view but I'll poke around and play and report back. 2 kids now so slow turnaround.

Sounds great, thanks! Trunkview is really simple. Just take a 1/8" audio cable and plug it from the headphone jack on your scanner to the line in on your computer. No discriminator taps or soldering necessary. Turn on the program and it will start logging data. The main thing we're interested in right now is "System ID" and "Adjacent Sites."

[norcalscan]

Heard from Cottonwood area (north Tehama County) around lunch time today. I did NOT hear the second site (54A9) control channel from when I searched in Red Bluff last night, so this second site is going to be a northern and possibly pretty east into Shasta county site - like Round Mountain area.

ID 55C1 Shasta Bally 461.8375 (ch309)

Adjacent sites
5489 ch169
5491 ch196
54A1 ch200
54A9 ch070
54F1 ch080

Voice
Ch406
Ch464
Ch495


Site ID 54A9 (unknown location) 451.875 (ch070)

Adjacant sites
5491 ch196
5499 ch274
54A1 ch200
54B1 ch068
55C1 ch309

Voice
Ch117
Ch136
Ch172

[norcalscan]

Looks like the second site 54A9 is WQNQ845 Hachet Mountain in eastern Shasta - as I suspected from not hearing it in Red Bluff.
WQNQ849 (PACIFIC GAS AND ELECTRIC COMPANY) FCC Callsign Details

[norcalscan]

Caught just inside the squelch on the way home:

ID 54F1 452.000 WQNU986 Oregon Mtn just west of Weaverville covering Trinity County.

Not enough clean signal to grab adjacent sites etc. I'll try again later when I get to a spot that I know will hear Oregon.

[norcalscan]

Hooked up to the X50 35ft in air at home in Red Bluff here's what I have within range of this spot (ignore my 45x frequencies - I only have 12.5khz spacing at home):

55C1 Shasta Bally
461.8375 (309)
Base 12.5 457.975

Adjacent sites

5489 - 169
5491 - 196
54A1 - 200
54A9 - 070 (Hatchet Mtn)
54F1 - 080 (Oregon Mtn)

Voice
406
464
495

-------------------
5489 Unknown
454.100 (169)

Adjacent Sites
5491 - 196
53A9 - 168 - 454.09375
54C1 - 086 (Flea Mtn?)
54E1 - 200
55C1 - 309 (Shasta Bally)

--------------------
5491 Unknown
454.4375 (196)

Adjacent Sites
5489 - 169
54A1 - 200
54A9 - 070 (Hatchet Mtn)
54C1 - 086 (Flea Mtn?)
55C1 - 309 (Shasta Bally)

---------------------
5481 Unknown
454.0375 (164)

Adjacent Sites
54C9 - 096
54D1 - 477

----------------------
54C1 - Flea Mtn?
452.075 (086)

Adjacent Sites
5481 - 164
54C9 - 096
54D9 - 198
54E1 - 200
___________________

Channel 200 is peaking my interest. Both Bally and Hatchet (and 5491) see it as 54A1, but Sites 5489 and 54C1 (Flea?) see Ch200 as 54E1, not 54A1. It just seems two sites close to each other both are on ch200. With the stinkin' paging /CD freqs, we're going to have to figure this out by signal strength and sleuthing around.

[WayneH]

Originally Posted by norcalscan

Channel 200 is peaking my interest. Both Bally and Hatchet (and 5491) see it as 54A1, but Sites 5489 and 54C1 (Flea?) see Ch200 as 54E1, not 54A1. It just seems two sites close to each other both are on ch200. With the stinkin' paging /CD freqs, we're going to have to figure this out by signal strength and sleuthing around.

Jake, thanks a lot for taking the time to provide your findings. I've noticed they reuse the 454MHz freqs a lot given their control of them over such large areas of the State. I think a few sites are probably running a higher ERP than they're supposed to so the reuse ends up in mixing. I know from my experience I frequently can't decode some sites because they're mixing, especially at home where I can hear 100+ miles frequently. It's possible around you these two sites don't overlap based on propagation mapping.

I've plotted all the licenses they have on a map so I'm thinking there's a possibility you're also hearing Hogback and South Fork. I can also hear 5481 in south Tracy, which is quite a distance! It's not used any voice channels outside of 454MHz (166, 181, 193). On an off chance hopefully some of the sites only using 454 may also be licensed outside of it in the DB. With sites like Mount Oso, which do not have any YG or YK licenses, you don't even know it's a possible site. Realistically any microwave site is a possible candidate but they have such a huge network it makes it more difficult. But, you also have Round Mtn and Inskip Hill as Red Bluff neighbors.

[WayneH]

On the talkgroup front...

For those who have noticed I've started adding some groups to the DB. It still does seem like Gas is only under the 000 prefix but I've heard Hydroelectric on both 000 and 001. They're usually around 65xx.

The Troublemen (aka T&D) groups tend to follow a pattern for Service Areas (based on the X digit in the form o-ooXo). Since the users have to rely on the group ID as the channel name it has to come back to something that makes sense to them. So far what I can confirm for my area is 1-6754 is T&D for the Stockton-Manteca general area. That's part of the Stockton Division. "Jackson" has answered repeatedly on 1-6753. 1-6761 is used for the Yosemite Division and last night for an area around Los Banos. I would have figured that was for Area 6 (Sacramento, Sierra...) but the area usage may overlap in to other ranges.

For the Bay Area 1-671x has been seen which jives with Area 1. I've seen 1-6720 used in the Orinda area which is Area 2. Oddly, 6720 is patched to 6719. For more info on the areas look in the DB.

Recently 1-68xx and 1-70xx have started to appear in my area. Still little to no Gas Ops activity.

They've been doing a lot of testing with the dispatch consoles lately. Their dispatch consoles I believe are using the Twisted Pair WAVE product. By logging the console ID's I can see groups which should relate to different control centers.

[norcalscan]

If they're pushing their ERP at some of these sites, that might explain how I could hear 452.075 54C1 Flea Mtn, mobile, from I5 at Anderson in Shasta County, 60miles away. That seems impossible, and I thought I found a magic notch in the foothills giving me the sliver of RF, but there is no notch in Cohasset Ridge.
http://www.scancal.org/misc/flea_to_anderson.jpg
Explain that! I know FCC shows 452.075 as PGE on Flea Mtn, but, but, that's near "impossible", unless they're just going to town with their ERP. Heck, even if they have antenna radiation favoring the NW direction of Flea - I can't think of a "PGE interest" NW of Flea that they would do that. How confident are we that 54C1 is Flea?

I'm very familiar with the Tehama TX sites - Inskip has county, ATT microwave, broadcast and FAA. I see FCC has PGE on Inskip (WQOG579) - which is brand new, but none of those freqs I've heard come live yet. PGE is on Tuscan Buttes - however there is no MPT site on Tuscan (at the moment). It did have one of their older LTR sites back when they were playing that game, and their microwave. It's right in the middle of their gas distribution also. Round Mtn also is certainly not a PGE site (as of yet). I do see FCC shows them up there now, but also with the name of TANC (Transmission Agency of Northern California) and TANC is more related to WAPA than PGE. There's no room up there for anything new so I wonder if they're partnering with TANC just to get on the mountaintop as a "partner" to WAPA. It is a small physical site with FM broadcast, tiny bit of USFS, and a tiny little bit of UHF business, but it does have microwave for WAPA (western area power administration). So far, with what I've sleuthed in Tehama County, there is no active PGE MPT site in Tehama County at the moment. Shasta Bally (55C1) should cover nearly 100% of Tehama though, even hearing it in south Chico this afternoon (there's that high ERP again). I'm going to travel down I5 from RB to SanFran next week and I'll search and ID what I hear along the way. And I'll keep an ear on Inskip or Tehama's Round Mtn to see if they ever come online.

[WayneH]

Originally Posted by norcalscan

If they're pushing their ERP at some of these sites, that might explain how I could hear 452.075 54C1 Flea Mtn, mobile, from I5 at Anderson in Shasta County, 60miles away. That seems impossible, and I thought I found a magic notch in the foothills giving me the sliver of RF, but there is no notch in Cohasset Ridge.

Previous to you hearing 452.075 I did get it one night when the conditions were good; getting it in the Lathrop-Manteca area is a feat! I was able to get the SysID but that was it. So I definitely think that site can propagate well. 45 watts, I don't really think so.

I can confirm there's an MPT site at Inskip; whether it's active or not I cannot. I know there are a lot of "new" sites for PG&E and I think to build this network out in a cellular-like nature they've had to do some colo agreements. Working something out with WAPA would not surprise me.

ETA: here are some more sites confirmed to have PG&E near you I forgot to mention...
Sutter Buttes, Bald Mountain, Hatchet Mountain, Haney Mountain, Hogback and Happy Camp

Also, based on some licenses I don't think equipment is at every licensed site. I know this seems the case in the Bay Area as some are too close to the other. But the ones listed above are 100% there.

[norcalscan]

Confirmed 54A1 is also on channel 200 (454.49375), heard from Cottonwood. A little scratchy - too scratchy to be Southfork or anywhere within the Redding Basin. To be adjacent to Hatchet, Oregon and Shasta Bally at the same time, AND avoid the ch200 54E1 in the Butte County area, with the signal strength I have, puts it up the I5 sacramento canyon area, possibly Lakehead (Sugarloaf Mtn).

Adjacent sites:
5491 - ch196
5499 - ch274 - Haney Mtn? (only by FCC record, not heard)
54A9 - ch070 - Hatchet Mtn
54F1 - ch080 - Oregon Mtn
55C1 - ch309 - Shasta Bally

Voice channels:
028
109
163

I'm also scanning every other PGE trunked freq, and a few regionwide IG freqs I found licensed in each county, listening for other mountain tops to light up.

[norcalscan]

54A1 could be Hogback Mtn , just above the Pit River arm of Shasta Lake, above Pit #7 dam.

Two voice channels for 54A1 match FCC licenses for Hogback (WQPA787), and the signal strength of where I'm at matches what I'd expect for that site.

[inigo88]

You guys rock! Just out of curiosity, was anyone ever able to confirm whether 53A9 Ch 168 was Sutter Buttes? It was kind of a shot in the dark guess (from 500 miles away) but it seemed worth a try.

[WayneH]

With KMA371's help I was able to ID most of the Bay Area sites and added them to the database. Sorry Inigo but I didn't ID any North Bay other than Big Rock.

There is one strange one which is 53F9. It's easily receivable in the Bay Area but is part of Zone 8(aka Valley). I want to say it's something off HWY152 but the neighbors are all Bay Area sites (Sunol, Loma, Twin Peaks, Rocky and San Bruno). It also doesn't get a lot of bouncing registrations either so it's not blasting everywhere.

What I've been doing is just sitting on the control channel for a few hours and checking to see which voice channels appear, then cross-referencing them with the licenses. For the most part that hasn't been any questionable ones (e.g., Round Top).

Traffic seems to be picking up around me. A lot of new groups but not a lot of identifiable departments.