Kings Canyon NP P-25

Status
Not open for further replies.

fuzzhead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
27
Location
Sanger,Ca.
I'm currently monitoring P-25 transmissions on 162.1625 from KNP. The database shows P-25 on 171.025 as a repeater output but nothing heard there. Not even simulcast.

It sounds like a dispatcher communicating with backcountry units. Strong signal/Base/repeater?

They also make reference to mountain tops such as "dispatch on Hoffman".

Anyone have any more P-25 info for KNP?
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
14,428
Location
Taxachusetts
I show 169.6250 as the Repeater output and the 162.1625 as the input using a different NAC for each Rptr

What did you get for the NAC for Hoffman ?

I'm currently monitoring P-25 transmissions on 162.1625 from KNP. The database shows P-25 on 171.025 as a repeater output but nothing heard there. Not even simulcast.

It sounds like a dispatcher communicating with backcountry units. Strong signal/Base/repeater?

They also make reference to mountain tops such as "dispatch on Hoffman".

Anyone have any more P-25 info for KNP?
 

fuzzhead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
27
Location
Sanger,Ca.
P-25

I'm not getting any NAC's showing on the display for some reason.

I just heard dispatch call out "dispatch on Palmer" Seems like the 162.1625 is on more than one mountaintop. I see no reference to your 169.625 in the database. Where did you find it? Maybe this is why I can only seem to hear the base unit and not mobiles/portables...but it is a very strong signal as would be on the output of a repeater.

I'll listen to 169.625 to see what is there and if it correlates to any of the other frequencies I am monitoring.

Thanks!
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
14,428
Location
Taxachusetts
http://forums.radioreference.com/ca...9-kings-canyon-sequoia-national-park-knp.html
http://forums.radioreference.com/ca...um/244509-p25-activity-sierra-sequoia-nf.html

The Common practice is to use a different NAC for each repeater they access. Can you Radio Display NACs??

I'm not getting any NAC's showing on the display for some reason.

I just heard dispatch call out "dispatch on Palmer" Seems like the 162.1625 is on more than one mountaintop. I see no reference to your 169.625 in the database. Where did you find it? Maybe this is why I can only seem to hear the base unit and not mobiles/portables...but it is a very strong signal as would be on the output of a repeater.

I'll listen to 169.625 to see what is there and if it correlates to any of the other frequencies I am monitoring.

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

fuzzhead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
27
Location
Sanger,Ca.
Both my radios have the capability to display NAC's...they just aren't displaying them. I have played with the settings but no joy.

Lots of analog and P25 activity on 162.1625. Nothing heard on the outputs though...strange.
 

kma371

QRT
Joined
Feb 20, 2001
Messages
6,204
Both my radios have the capability to display NAC's...they just aren't displaying them. I have played with the settings but no joy.

Lots of analog and P25 activity on 162.1625. Nothing heard on the outputs though...strange.

What scanner is it?
 

car5le

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
231
Location
Northwestern Montana
I'm going to have to find my sheet, but I believe KNP is running F7E of F7F (esentially no NAC) with their output. More in the morning...
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
14,428
Location
Taxachusetts
If he is getting No NAC, maybe the reports of 162 being the input are incorrect ??


I'm going to have to find my sheet, but I believe KNP is running F7E of F7F (esentially no NAC) with their output. More in the morning...
 

fuzzhead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
27
Location
Sanger,Ca.
What scanner is it?

I have the Bearcat 396 and 996. They DO display NAC's...just not on the frequencies at KNP on P-25.

Maybe, like the other poster said, they are not using them?

Continuous monitoring is showing mixed analog and P-25 on 162.1625. I hear the base stations calling back country units. Only one side of the conversation is heard, so, probably an input to a repeater. BUT which one?? I don't hear any activity on the other "claimed" repeater outputs.

If I can hear the input units very well, full scale, why no output? It's because the correct output has not been determined yet. This is the whole purpose of this thread.
 

kma371

QRT
Joined
Feb 20, 2001
Messages
6,204
I have the Bearcat 396 and 996. They DO display NAC's...just not on the frequencies at KNP on P-25.

Maybe, like the other poster said, they are not using them?.

Have you checked to make sure its on SEARCH? I don't think it sets it that way on default.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
I should have better information on the changes that, according to some posters here, have obviously occurred since last year. The backcountry net consists of the following repeaters that I will list with their analog tone: Evolution (I do not know the specific mountain of this repeater) (Tone Tone 1); Windy, (Tone 2); Mt. Gould (at the crest of the Sierra overlooking the Owens Valley) (Tone 3); Palmer (Tone 4); Paradise (Tone 5); and Forgotten (Tone 6). These are listed from north to south. The tones are per the National Wildfire Coordinating Group standard that lists 16 analog tones and 16 NAC's as well. These are those corresponding NAC's: (1) 455, (2) 4CE, (3) 526, (4) 555, (5) 5B6 and (6) 61F. I'm not positive that the NAC's listed with the 16 standard analog tones are a national application, but I do know that they are a California standard. I won't list all 16 as only six apply here. The California list of NAC's does not include F7E or F7F.

The backcountry net uses multiple repeaters on one frequency pair accessed by tone selection. Lassen and Grand Canyon National Parks each have a system using several repeater pairs at multiple sites that transmit whatever traffic exists on all the repeaters. Obviously this is not was it employed on the KNP backcountry net.

The KNP frontcountry net is different. It uses repeaters on Milk Ranch and Park Ridge. One frequency pair is used and the repeaters simulcast. Accessing these repeaters required using Tone 7 (167.9) for analog operation and if they have started using digital modulation for this net the corresponding NAC should be 68F.

If the input is the only frequency being heard then it is likely that fuzzhead's and epcs92's scanners are picking up the hub or control site of the net on Parkridge, located west of the park's main road south of Grant Grove and north of Lodgepole. It can be monitored over a large area of the southern central valley.

The mention of "Hoffman" is a mystery here. This is the location of repeaters on three of Yosemite National Park's four nets. Those being law enforcement, fire and park. Why Hoffman would be mentioned on the KNP backcountry net cannot be explained. Yosemite National Parks dispatch identifier is "Yosemite" and KNP's is "735 dispatch" or just "dispatch." Why would the KNP dispatcher located at Ash Mountain use a repeater located in YNP where it can't possibly be used directly. I know of no reason to tie the nets of these two parks together. If Yosemite is heard making a call you would hear "......Yosemite on Hoffman." Hearing that on the KNP backcountry net should be noted and reported here. A search of California place names shows only one more mention of the name "Hoffman" close to KNP and it is the town of Hoffman Point in Fresno County. It seems unlikely for the NPS to install a repeater there.

I receive the net backcountry units in Yosemite use and have not heard any mention of KNP on this net. The backcountry protection rangers (LEO's) at Yosemite use "Bravo" followed by two numbers and their non LEO's use the 600 series, but the protection rangers use one net and the other personnel use another. All YNP protection rangers have a alphabetical precursor based on ranger districts and sub-districts. KNP units use a three number identifier with the first number identifying specific locations not tied to functions or ranger districts, the second digit corresponds to function with protection rangers identified with a "1." Hopefully this information will help you decipher the traffic on KNP's nets. This information for KNP's identifiers is older than my last visit there, so if they have changed to an alphabetical precursor for their protection rangers I have no solid information to help decipher it, although I could make some well informed guesses. Please report back with everything I've mentioned and identifiers (call signs) being used.

I will be contacting someone that might be able to shed light on KNP's radio system sometime in the next 2-3 weeks. I will report back on this thread. Once I have verifiable information I will make a database submission. What you see on the database now is based on information from good sources I contacted last year.
 
Last edited:

fuzzhead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
27
Location
Sanger,Ca.
Thank you Exsmokey. This is a lot of good information.

I don't want to stir up too much confusion about "Hoffman" I THOUGHT I heard dispatch calling a unit saying that, but I could be wrong. In several days of monitoring I have confirmed dispatch calling units via " Windy, Gould, Palmer,Paradise and Forgotten" I know Hoffman is in Yosemite and I was skeptical too however I just figured it was just one of the repeater sites serving the extreme North end of KNP...even though it is outside of KNP boundaries.

I have no NAC information as my 996XT is NOT displaying any on this input frequency (162.1625). I have no idea why as I have checked the mode and it IS in NAC search mode. I DO believe now that this frequency is an input as I DO NOT hear any units (mobiles/portables) other than "Dispatch,and Ash Mountain dispatch". It is also mixed mode analog/P-25.

Regarding the database listing of 171.025 being the back country P-25 repeater...I hear NO activity here and this needs to be confirmed by someone else. If I can hear the 162.1625 "full ker-smash" here I should here SOMETHING on the output, especially if they are simulcasting repeaters on all those hilltops. Hmmm.

Will try to [pay further attention to the unit numbers, but they all seem to be 3 digit identifyers, ie. "110--dispatch on Forgotten"..."100--dispatch on Palmer" etc.


PS...What the heck is a "Drip Torch"????
 

WayneH

Forums Veteran
Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 16, 2000
Messages
7,522
Location
Your master site
fuzzhead, P25 has to send something in the NAC field. Since it's structured digital data it cannot change usage of bit locations. Since I've heard 162.1625 before I know it sends a NAC (see the threads Bill referenced earlier). Specifically my post here.

A drip torch is what Exsmokey shows being used in his avatar. It drips flames.
 
Last edited:

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
A drip torch is used to light fire. The fuel in it consists of mostly diesel with some gasoline added to make it a little more volatile. It is used for burnout operations where fuels next to a fireline are burned in advance of a fires arrival. They are used to light prescribed fire. They are used to light slash piles, which consist of thinning debris and other fuel on the forest floor. They are also used to light backfires, a very complex operation involving the ignition of fuels ahead of the head of a fire, which is drawn into the head of the fire the air it is drawing in to burn. With fuel removed ahead of the main fire's head, the advance is stopped. Ignition of backfires is very tricky, with wind direction, fuels, location and timing factors in the tactic's success.

If you enjoy watching fire behavior, understand fire ecology and the stages of forest succession lighting fire is quite fascinating. Unlike arsonists, fire management personnel are using fire to return fire to fire dependent ecosystems, removed by the arrival of European man, resulting in unnatural conditions in forests. Fire managers understand the factors affecting fire behavior and how to use it to imitate the natural role of fire.

The six repeaters on the KNP are not simulcast, at least as of last year. They are used one at a time depending on the location of the person using a handheld.

You may be in a location where you are only able to receive the transmission of the input frequency from the remote base station on Parkridge Peak or Mountain. You are likely out of the range of the repeaters located some distance from Parkridge. You can't hear the output of the six repeaters or the handheld's input frequency so you will only hear dispatch transmitting on the input. The remote base station on Parkridge has a receiver that due to its location, is able to hear the output transmissions of each repeater. The dispatch center at Ash Mountain is linked to the remote base at Parkridge using a phone line, a 400 MHz link or by microwave.

The situation you describe of hearing only what the dispatcher transmits on the repeater input frequency is a situation encountered in many other locations where the remote base is the only mountain top site within range of a scanner. Given what you have told us, I think there is a 80-100% chance that my answer is correct. I've encountered the situation you describe many times in my radio hobby years. The way to verify the answer to what you are hearing is to drive and walk if necessary, to the location of the remote base. Keep the input frequency in manual on one scanner and the output frequency on another. You will notice a very strong signal on the input frequency and a weak one from the distant repeaters your scanner can hear, with only a handheld antenna, while at the remote base station's location. I have no idea how to access Parkridge, but if I was you that is what I would do to verify my suggested description of what is causing you to only hear the input frequency.

Hoffman Peak is not likely providing any coverage for the north end of KNP. The Clark Range on the southern boundary of YNP and Kaiser Ridge north of Huntington Lake are in the way. The repeater in Evolution Valley, north of Muir Pass was put in to provide coverage of the upper South Fork of the San Joaquin River on the north end of the park.

Knowing your location, fuzzhead, would be helpful in determining if what I suggest as the situation you have encountered is correct. I would guess you are in northern Tulare or southern Fresno County, fairly close to the foothills. Maybe in the east or east of Visalia, Exeter, Dinuba or Sanger. If you drive west to almost Interstate 5 I would guess you will pick up the output of a couple of the repeaters. You may be in the shadow of Parkridge where hearing the repeaters, all located east of that location, is blocked by the ridge itself.

This is all conjecture on my part based on what I know of the topography in and around KNP. I could be way off too. I would be most interested in where your scanner is located.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top