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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KB0VWG View Post
Frs will get about 2 miles if its an open terrain but sometines it depends, Cb would work too if you use mobiles that would carry a few miles up to like 10 miles possibly. you could do gmrs radios and pay for a license that runs 75 to 80 I think for 5 years. But are your hunting friends relatives or just friends. If they are relatives then 1 license will cover everyone in the family but if they are not related then each person will need to get a license. I would try frs first to see how it works that would be the least expensive route and if not try something else. Or get your ham license. Hope this helps.
73s
Michael
kb0vwg
Actually our group tried this out on opening day with poor results.
Maybe because we were using average (motorola talkabout) radios, ...(((shrug)))

Thanks for your reply and the licensing advice!
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 2beers4me View Post
I would stay away from CB. There can be DX stations, and a general noise floor when the band is open that will make communications a struggle.
Oddly enough we were really considering CB handhelds because of the semi-flexible transmission curve.
But I think you are right about all the noise, ...thx!
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:36 AM
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I'm sure the FCC is not going to be in the woods using their "directional signal finding equipment" to find a couple of hunters, who are armed, using a few modified 2m hand held on murs. As soon as they would hear wood's they would go into a mental breakdown because they actually had to leave their desk which is rich in doughnuts and coffee.

In other words 146.52 should work fine if you're a ham, or a MURS radio. Heck I'm sure some cheap deals from walmart will work too..
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by JayMojave View Post
Hello Adterra:

Been Quail and Deer Hunting several times and we first used CB Hand Held Radios, but they didn't have a low power setting restricting the output power to save the batteries.

So then we tried the FRS cheapy hand held radios, they didn't have the range or options we wanted.

Then we tried modified, 2 meter ham hand held radios on the MURs channels, 151.820 MHz, 151.880 MHz, 151.940 MHz, 154.570 MHz, and 154.600 MHz. These channels worked great as we were able to use low power and carried an extra battery. We also used the small light weight head set and had a VOX capability that allowed us to just talk and the others could hear us.

Then realized we were all Hams and then moved to 146.52 MHz for simplex use. We even talked to a guy down in a valley several miles away on low power. Kind of neat while hunting.

Next trip we came up with a base station antenna, and a low power radio. And it all worked really good.

We brought 12 volt Cigarette Lighter Batter Chargers, so we could start the day off with fresh batteries.
Good post Jay, …very helpful!
We hunt a very hilly lease in the East Texas Piney Woods.
What type of terrain did you have to overcome and were you able to copy everyone within a mile or so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayMojave View Post
The 75 dollar a radio budget, well good luck to yeah.

Jay in the Mojave
I never considered the HAM alternative.
Always thought it was way too complicated and out of my reach.
Guess I've been brainwashed by the great retailers Midland / Motorola. (insert wal-mart mentality here)

I just now googled HAM Handhelds and was really surprised to find that they're not that expensive for a bare-bones unit that may be a fit for our group, a little over $100.00 bucks.

Recommendations?
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by scannerboy65301 View Post
I'm sure the FCC is not going to be in the woods using their "directional signal finding equipment" to find a couple of hunters, who are armed, using a few modified 2m hand held on murs. As soon as they would hear wood's they would go into a mental breakdown because they actually had to leave their desk which is rich in doughnuts and coffee.

In other words 146.52 should work fine if you're a ham, or a MURS radio. Heck I'm sure some cheap deals from walmart will work too..
Bwhahahahahaha!
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Old 11-26-2009, 7:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb2vxa View Post
Oh now don't tell me, you set up a cross band repeater on a hilltop?
Expensive?
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Old 11-26-2009, 7:29 PM
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I noticed this while googling "used affordable crossband repeater,"
handheld/mobile w/ crossband repeater capability? - VHFUHF Forum at eHam.net

How does this work >and< would it work for us?
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:41 PM
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I see you guys noted my sarcasm even if it went over Scannerboy's head like a misplaced load of buckshot. Now shaddap aweady, I'm hunting WABBIT! (;->)

Originally Posted by kb2vxa
Oh now don't tell me, you set up a cross band repeater on a hilltop?

"Expensive?"
Actually a dual band mobile transceiver with cross band repeat capability, a dual band antenna and an auxiliary battery aren't all that expensive. Just park the car on a hill and away you go, but still it was sarcasm because then everybody needs a dual band portable.

"I just now googled HAM Handhelds and was really surprised to find that they're not that expensive for a bare-bones unit that may be a fit for our group, a little over $100.00 bucks. Recommendations?"
Group study sessions like those sponsored by clubs maybe? Not sarcasm, you just might spark interest in Amateur Radio among your huntsmen and who knows where it may lead. I wouldn't promote it solely for hunting or some other nonsense though, more often than not it leads to paper hams. You can always run it up the flagpole and see who salutes, if you get a shrug and a meh then look in another direction.
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb2vxa View Post
Actually a dual band mobile transceiver with cross band repeat capability, a dual band antenna and an auxiliary battery aren't all that expensive. Just park the car on a hill and away you go, but still it was sarcasm because then everybody needs a dual band portable.
Sorry kb, …I don't mean to be a pest on this and I'm sure this is all quite elementary however, …http://mcsherry.org/ScaredFace.jpg

Some more background,

Our lease covers 200+ acres and is very hilly.
We have established camp on the high ground and have built a small cabin there.
The cabin has recently been fitted with a 30 watt solar panel / 4amp. regulator / 86amp. hour gel-cell. The mast the solar panel is on could be raised another 10 feet topping it out at 25 feet from the ground and could be fitted with an antenna.

I could use some input in the "what's next" department, …equipment recommendations / base - handheld, would be greatly appreciated!!!

Also, …when a two-way handheld specs. state that it has, ...
"8 GMRS repeater channels"…is this something that would work for us?

Taken from the Garmin Rino spec. below,
"Garmin Rino 110 Handheld GPS Navigator and 2-Way Radio ... You get 14 FRS channels, 8 GMRS channels, and 8 GMRS repeater channels."

Apparently the $75.00 budget per radio is out the window!
Sad face.
(-_-)
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Old 11-27-2009, 2:44 PM
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You're not being a pest, you just haven't picked up on all the hints I've already posted and applied them to your particular situation. What more can I say? Now it's up to you to decide what sort of setup best suits your needs without breaking the bank.

That cabin is looking more attractive all the time. If it were mine it would have a beefier electrical system and a few more comforts, not to mention being surrounded by an antenna farm.
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Old 11-27-2009, 3:34 PM
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Default Go with Murs Radios

Hi there.

I few tidbits from my personal experience hunting in hilly terrain with radios. I'll list a few points of interest.

1. Range can be much greater with VHF than UHF (ie, MURS goes further than FRS/GMRS), even at the same power level.
2. An antenna 20 feet up or less should easily hear all the handhelds (vhf/MURS) in your lease from a central location (even w/a very mediocre antenna).

You describe your lease as 200 plus acres. Assuming a perfect square, I see that the maximum length (in reality I realize this is probably not the case), two people could be from each other is about 7 miles. You will have trouble finding any handhelds that will reliably talk this far away, though they may work sometimes.

So practically speaking, even though with vhf handhelds, many of the ppl in a 200 acre space could reach each other most of the time, it will be far less than 100%. With UHF(FRS/GMRS), you can forget about it, being anywhere near reliable over that kind of distance (even though it may work perfectly in spots).

So what to do?

The VHF/MURS Route from a system standpoint:
Get a bunch of these radios on ebay, brands like quangsheng, jintong, but I like Puxing. Set up one radio with external antenna a few feet up. Most handhelds will reach each other most of the time, but they should always be able to talk back and forth with a base. (VHF/MURS does not allow repeaters, although it may be legal to use a simplex repeater, I'm not sure). A simplex repeater needs only one radio channel, the repeater (a higher antenna base station), simply listens and restransmits anything heard on the same frequency.

For GMRS, you'd need a license, and have the expense of setting up a full fledged (duplex) repeater about 30 feet up or so at the camp. Handhelds would be limited in their ability to go direct to each other, but should always be able to talk to each other through the repeater.


Bottom line, given 200+acres, and typical realworld conditions without perfectly flat terrain, reliable handheld to handheld coverage is difficult to achieve with VHF, and very unlikely with UHF. But the use of the base stations or repeaters described before can bridge this gap.

Last edited by kb5udf; 11-27-2009 at 3:38 PM..
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Old 11-27-2009, 5:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb2vxa View Post
You're not being a pest, you just haven't picked up on all the hints I've already posted and applied them to your particular situation.
What more can I say?
That maybe true, …comes from painting without a mask I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb2vxa View Post
Now it's up to you to decide what sort of setup best suits your needs without breaking the bank.
For the sake of argument, …I choose a GMRS set up with a portable (12v) repeater at the cabin.
Reasoning - is that my buds can participate with the radios they have and not have to invest in any other equipment.
I can pick up the slack if the slack isn't too heavy.

How heavy is the slack?
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Old 11-27-2009, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kb2vxa View Post
That cabin is looking more attractive all the time.
If it were mine it would have a beefier electrical system and a few more comforts, not to mention being surrounded by an antenna farm.
The panel / battery are sufficient for 5 days (- / +) of solid electrical needs (lighting / water pump.) Maybe longer but we have never stayed longer. The time between visits varies from 4 weeks to 2 months, …ample time for the battery to recharge to full capacity.

The tankless propane water heater coupled with a 5 gallon recirculating filtered shower water system provides showers limited only by the propane fuel level.

The thermostat controlled propane heater chases out the 35 degree chill on some of those East Texas nights and the propane fridge keeps our food fresh during the stay, ice free.

Direct T.V. / video games / DVD's are banned from the cabin as well as they should be!
Aside from trying to get a better GSM, … and better GMRS signal…we call it home away from home.

You are going to help me get a better overall GMRS signal, (dirt cheap) …aren't you?
<grin>
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Old 11-27-2009, 5:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb5udf View Post
Hi there.

I few tidbits from my personal experience hunting in hilly terrain with radios.
I'll list a few points of interest.

1. Range can be much greater with VHF than UHF (ie, MURS goes further than FRS/GMRS), even at the same power level.
2. An antenna 20 feet up or less should easily hear all the handhelds (vhf/MURS) in your lease from a central location (even w/a very mediocre antenna).

You describe your lease as 200 plus acres. Assuming a perfect square, I see that the maximum length (in reality I realize this is probably not the case), two people could be from each other is about 7 miles. You will have trouble finding any handhelds that will reliably talk this far away, though they may work sometimes.

So practically speaking, even though with vhf handhelds, many of the ppl in a 200 acre space could reach each other most of the time, it will be far less than 100%. With UHF(FRS/GMRS), you can forget about it, being anywhere near reliable over that kind of distance (even though it may work perfectly in spots).

So what to do?

The VHF/MURS Route from a system standpoint:

Get a bunch of these radios on ebay, brands like quangsheng, jintong, but I like Puxing. Set up one radio with external antenna a few feet up. Most handhelds will reach each other most of the time, but they should always be able to talk back and forth with a base. (VHF/MURS does not allow repeaters, although it may be legal to use a simplex repeater, I'm not sure). A simplex repeater needs only one radio channel, the repeater (a higher antenna base station), simply listens and retransmits anything heard on the same frequency.

For GMRS, you'd need a license, and have the expense of setting up a full fledged (duplex) repeater about 30 feet up or so at the camp. Handhelds would be limited in their ability to go direct to each other, but should always be able to talk to each other through the repeater.


Bottom line, given 200+acres, and typical realworld conditions without perfectly flat terrain, reliable handheld to handheld coverage is difficult to achieve with VHF, and very unlikely with UHF. But the use of the base stations or repeaters described before can bridge this gap.
Hello back and EXCELLENT post!!!
Do you have a good link for a popular / very affordable VHF simplex repeater?

I have already gotten enough >hints< to realize that for my lease to communicate reliably we will need some form of repeater.

Or, …we will just have to replace the string every year.
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Old 11-27-2009, 5:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb5udf View Post
You describe your lease as 200 plus acres.
Assuming a perfect square, I see that the maximum length (in reality I realize this is probably not the case), two people could be from each other is about 7 miles. You will have trouble finding any handhelds that will reliably talk this far away, though they may work sometimes.
Actually, ...it >is< almost a perfect square with the diagonal being a fuzz over 1 mile.
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Old 11-27-2009, 8:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adterra View Post
Hello back and EXCELLENT post!!!
Do you have a good link for a popular / very affordable VHF simplex repeater?
Here's one: https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/p...products_id=98
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Old 11-28-2009, 9:45 AM
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Hello Adterra:

The terrain was Desert, with hills and valleys, and we would sometimes be 1 to 2 miles apart. And had a solid copy on each other most all the time.

I have a cheap Kenwood Hand Held Radio, Model TH22a its a older radio I bought at the TRW swap meet in Los Angles that was already modified for the MURs band. It has the cheap stock antenna, but much better antennas are available.

I bought brand new batteries and the 12 Volt Chargers for the Kenwood HT Radio, a good investment as the batteries have lasted for years. It has optional larger capacity batteries that allow longer user time.

I believe most all popular hand held VHF Radios can be easily modified or even programmed in what frequencies you want in there. E-Bay is a good place to look around, and many dealers sell equipment there that can program what you want in the radio. And they can sell you one, two, what ever number radios you want. You ant to look for these capibilities, switching the tramsmit power to lower levels, beiiger batteries, and a VOX type haed set. Yeah the accessories will cost more than the radios.
But if your going to play, you must pay.

The last camping and hunting trip I went on, we used the MURs channel 151.94 as it real quiet. We had great success with the VHF Hand Held Radios, but one of the guys had to go to a higher power setting for his hand held radio as he was a few miles down the hills from us.

Don't buy the Marine VHF Radios, they will not work on the MURs channels and the Marine channels need to be left along.

Modifying the Ham VHF Hand Held radios is a good call as you can also hear all the repeaters and such on the 2 meter ham band. The entry License test is simple with a little studying, and does not require the old out dated unnecessary Morse Code in the test.

Jay in the Mojave

Quote:
Originally Posted by adterra View Post
Good post Jay, …very helpful!
We hunt a very hilly lease in the East Texas Piney Woods.
What type of terrain did you have to overcome and were you able to copy everyone within a mile or so?


I never considered the HAM alternative.
Always thought it was way too complicated and out of my reach.
Guess I've been brainwashed by the great retailers Midland / Motorola. (insert wal-mart mentality here)

I just now googled HAM Handhelds and was really surprised to find that they're not that expensive for a bare-bones unit that may be a fit for our group, a little over $100.00 bucks.

Recommendations?
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Old 11-28-2009, 10:41 AM
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Default Simplex Repeater

You might consider the MFJ-662 "MFJ Pocket Repeater"

MFJ Enterprises Inc.

MSRP = $89

Oh, and speaking of antennas. My personal favorite for a very inexpensive MURS antenna is to find a bargain, widebanded (6mhz), 6db
gain Shakespeare marine vertical. It will receive all MURS channels well, but transmit should be limited MURS 4 and 5 (ie, the 154mhz channels), because that's closer to where the antenna is matched. I picked up one of these on ebay for about $35 on closeout a few years ago.

Last edited by kb5udf; 11-28-2009 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:46 PM
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"You are going to help me get a better overall GMRS signal, (dirt cheap) …aren't you?"
Dammit Jim, I'm a surgeon, not a bricklayer! (;->) I'm seriously out of my league here so I'm questioning the legality of a simplex repeater on other than Amateur VHF/UHF frequencies. Hopefully this will get a proper answer and keep you out of trouble should such operation be against the rules.

One thing I must say is experience has told me that a PL tone is a must or everything any repeater hears will be repeated and confuse the hell out of everybody. Once upon a time I called CQ on the 2M FM simplex calling frequency and heard my echo coming back, some idiot loused it up for everybody in range of the infernal thing. One caveat, make sure it's on an obscure and unused frequency or it could jam other users and you'll not hear them complaining about it.

As an aside, someone else put one up on a rather obscure simplex frequency with PL but when we discovered the tone we had some fun with it. I suppose we annoyed him a little too much and one day it was gone, oh well. Not to worry, if you do set one up I'm sure you'll hide it like he did but unlike his yours would be temporary and not attract undue attention from squawking parrots with devil horns such as I. (;->)
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Old 11-28-2009, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayMojave View Post
Hello Adterra:

The terrain was Desert, with hills and valleys, and we would sometimes be 1 to 2 miles apart. And had a solid copy on each other most all the time.

I have a cheap Kenwood Hand Held Radio, Model TH22a its a older radio I bought at the TRW swap meet in Los Angles that was already modified for the MURs band. It has the cheap stock antenna, but much better antennas are available.

I bought brand new batteries and the 12 Volt Chargers for the Kenwood HT Radio, a good investment as the batteries have lasted for years. It has optional larger capacity batteries that allow longer user time.

I believe most all popular hand held VHF Radios can be easily modified or even programmed in what frequencies you want in there. E-Bay is a good place to look around, and many dealers sell equipment there that can program what you want in the radio. And they can sell you one, two, what ever number radios you want. You ant to look for these capabilities, switching the transmit power to lower levels, beiiger batteries, and a VOX type head set. Yeah the accessories will cost more than the radios.
But if your going to play, you must pay.

The last camping and hunting trip I went on, we used the MURs channel 151.94 as it real quiet. We had great success with the VHF Hand Held Radios, but one of the guys had to go to a higher power setting for his hand held radio as he was a few miles down the hills from us.

Don't buy the Marine VHF Radios, they will not work on the MURs channels and the Marine channels need to be left along.

Modifying the Ham VHF Hand Held radios is a good call as you can also hear all the repeaters and such on the 2 meter ham band. The entry License test is simple with a little studying, and does not require the old out dated unnecessary Morse Code in the test.

Jay in the Mojave
Despite your valiant attempts to convert me to MURS, we are going to stick with GMRS for the very same reasons I posted earlier to kb2-vxa above.
Each member has too much invested in their main and back-up bubblepack radios to convert at present.
Personally, David and I were seriously looking at the ICOM IV-V8 Sport as a real solution.

Heck, …we may even pick up a couple from Cabela's to see how they rate and report the results back to the group.

*** You have had great input and have given me much to consider! ***
(*_^)

The simplex repeater seems, at least for now, to be the right choice and the cost of obtaining individual GMRS licensing is do-able. (spelling?)
Somebody mentioned something earlier about a special group license and that would be preferred.

Cost for repeater - under $100.00 (new)

Cost for radio - ?

I need to find a GMRS HT (power drain concerns) w/removable antenna.
Also it has to be compatible ( plug type - s / m / ptt ) with either of the two simplex repeaters mentioned below.
https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/p...products_id=98
http://www.gigaparts.com/store.php?a...le&sku=ZMF-662

I would prefer not to splice and dice if I don't have to.

There is a Motorola Talkabout Sport 2 watt on ebay,
Motorola Sport 10X Radio Hand Held Talkie - eBay (item 260510430914 end time Dec-21-09 06:38:51 PST) ,that I was wondering about.

The antenna is removable however, …I can't tell by the image if I can run coax in from outside.

Suggestions - anyone?
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