CB for Family Setup Question

[Nutes]

Okay. I am almost complete with my first real scanner setup and everything is going great. The next project will be for me to set up a simple, but effective family/hobby communication system. I am considering CB as an option. Bear in mind I have read tons and tons on all the unlicensed options out there of MURS, Family Radio, etc. Any suggestions or real world experience with CB for my planned system will be appreciated.

Here is the setup and goals of my system:

1. I live on top of pretty high hill. Most of the terrain around me is hilly and wooded. I am above or level with all the terrain around me except for the North and Northwest side, which is all hilly, undeveloped wooded land. Me and my sons do have permission to hunt this land so communication in that regards from the house to three miles into that area would be a goal.

2. Ideally I would like to establish a 3 mile effective perimeter around my house that I could communicate with two other hand held CB radios (such as the Cobra HH38WXSTR) from a base station Mobile CB Radio in my house hooked up to an outdoor antenna on my roof, such as the Solarcan A99. So a total of three radios with one base and two handhelds.

I believe the areas to my Northeast, Southeast, South, Southwest and West will work well, as my home is well above these areas and line of sight is clear. Also these areas are more open type terrain with far less woods. However, it is the areas to the North, Northwest like I mentioned earlier that I am worried about. Will CB communication in those more heavily wooded areas, and areas that are more level or even sligtly above my home grade at points be viable for CB or am I asking for disaster and frustration?

Once again, I am not looking to talk to the moon. 3 mile perimeter would be very good and very useful for my application.

 

[N4GIX]

Were it me, I'd get a GMRS* license. It's $65 for a 5 year license. Then, a small repeater (which can also serve as a base radio), and two inexpensive HT's such as a UV-5R or UV-88. With a base antenna up around 40' you should easily have a 10 mile radius.

With prudent eBay shopping, this can all be done for less than $500 tops, possibly less.

* A GMRS license is for your entire family, including aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, etc. unto the third generation...

 

[Nutes]

Were it me, I'd get a GMRS* license. It's $65 for a 5 year license. Then, a small repeater (which can also serve as a base radio), and two inexpensive HT's such as a UV-5R or UV-88. With a base antenna up around 40' you should easily have a 10 mile radius.

With prudent eBay shopping, this can all be done for less than $500 tops, possibly less.

* A GMRS license is for your entire family, including aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, etc. unto the third generation...

Yes. I see your point. I believe my attraction to CB is the ability to keep the cost down, and the simplicity. However, your point is well made that with the GMRS license, the cost could be not MUCH more and achieve a slighter longer range. If, I am reading correctly.

 

[pjtnascar]

Handheld CB radios work like crap. You may be okay within your perimeter on mobile mount CBs with antenna, but you'd be better off with GMRS.

 

[N4GIX]

The major "attractions" of GMRS versus CB are first of all, mode of operation being FM instead of high-noise AM. Secondly, you won't be subject to having high-powered CB "idiots" potentially interfering with your communications. Moreover, you are much less likely to hear ugly language...

I recommend buying one already tuned up and ready to use, such as this pair of Motorola CDM-1550 LS radios. I bought a pair of these from this gentleman. They come pre-programmed with all eight GMRS repeater pair frequencies: GMRS 30Watt Base Station UHF Repeater 450 520 MHz Free Program Choice of Freqs | eBay

Then you'd add a mobile duplexer and have it tuned to *one* of those eight repeater pairs. Something like this: Jiesai SGQ 450 D UHF 6 Cavity Duplexer for WOUXUN TYT Mobile Radio Repeater A160 | eBay

At least a 20amp 13.8vdc power supply such as this one: New 12 to 15 Volt 20 Amp Power Supply Small Light Small Digital Voltmeter | eBay

You'd need cables to connect from the mini-uhf on the radios to N connectors on the duplexer. Dan is an excellent source for those: Motorola GR300 GR500 GM300 CDM N Duplexer Cables RX TX RG223 Repeater Trbo | eBay

One thing I'd advise to anyone and that is to not "skimp" on your base antenna and coax. Honestly, the best radio or repeater in the world is useless without a good antenna system. It is without question the most important part of any station, regardless of frequency! :lol:

I'd suggest something like this one from Comtelco: Comtelco BS450XL3 UHF Base Station Repeater Antenna 3dB Gain Tuned 464 5 GMRS | eBay

UV-5 or UV-88 radios are available everywhere it seems running for <$40 each.

 

[TheSpaceMann]

If you want to go the CB route, get a decent 11 meter radio for the base. Look for some inexpensive 11 meter walkie talkies on eBay, and you'll have a nice set up for very little $$$.

 

[KC2GIU]

2. Ideally I would like to establish a 3 mile effective perimeter around my house that I could communicate with two other hand held CB radios (such as the Cobra HH38WXSTR) from a base station Mobile CB Radio in my house hooked up to an outdoor antenna on my roof, such as the Solarcan A99. So a total of three radios with one base and two handhelds.

I have a pair of the Cobra HH33's. The HH38's are basically with the same guts as the HH33's. They are so-so. I only tried using batteries once. They don't last long, thus plan on using vehicle power for the handhelds or consider a waist battery fanny pack 12VDC source to power the handhelds.

From the house to a tractor in the field, the HH33 running off of 12VDC worked alright.

As for the Cobra HH series radios, the rubber-duck antennas really limit the range and waste power getting out. A much longer antenna would work way better.

 

[TheSpaceMann]

I have a pair of the Cobra HH33's. The HH38's are basically with the same guts as the HH33's. They are so-so. I only tried using batteries once. They don't last long, thus plan on using vehicle power for the handhelds or consider a waist battery fanny pack 12VDC source to power the handhelds.

From the house to a tractor in the field, the HH33 running off of 12VDC worked alright.

As for the Cobra HH series radios, the rubber-duck antennas really limit the range and waste power getting out. A much longer antenna would work way better.

Good point! A 102" whip would perform very well in any 11 meter mobile application!!

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Were it me, I'd get a GMRS* license. It's $65 for a 5 year license. Then, a small repeater (which can also serve as a base radio), and two inexpensive HT's such as a UV-5R or UV-88. With a base antenna up around 40' you should easily have a 10 mile radius.

With prudent eBay shopping, this can all be done for less than $500 tops, possibly less.

* A GMRS license is for your entire family, including aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, etc. unto the third generation...

This is horrid advice, if it can even be called such.

1-You will probably never, ever need a repeater to talk 3 miles in the terrain he has described.

2-Putting a repeater at the base station location is unnecessary and counter productive.

3-Uv-5r's and UV-88 are not type accepted for GMRS, and far too much radio, and likely to get someone into difficulties, who is just looking for a simple, 3 mile communication system.

4-GMRS antenna's are limited to 20 feet above terrain, or the structure they are mounted on.



Delta

 

[k8krh]

Get a 2 meter used radio such as an ALINCO, cut the wire for MARS modification, get 2 hand helds for MURS those CHINESE hand helds would do the job, and put it on a MURS channel no license needed, antenna ground plane, run radio on low power and you have 10 mile or more range., just look on qrz or eham for a used 2 meter radio MARS converted., and those CHINESE hand helds your all set.
I use to run MURS with a beam antenna it was 20-25 miles coverage or more.
DOCTOR

 

[N4GIX]

This is horrid advice, if it can even be called such.

1-You will probably never, ever need a repeater to talk 3 miles in the terrain he has described.

This "advice" is coming from a person with over 40 years of professional experience in the LMR business.

Plan for the future. Having an arbitrary 3 mile limit will ultimately prove disappointing, since the last mile will always be the most noisy and problematic.

2-Putting a repeater at the base station location is unnecessary and counter productive.

Really? Many people have their repeaters co-located at their house or place of business. I have two repeaters here in my home. Once is a GMRS "community repeater" intended to provide solid communications for our Neighborhood watch patrollers to use. The other is a DMR repeater mostly for my own use. Since I own it, I can control what networks and talkgroups it is linked to...

3-Uv-5r's and UV-88 are not type accepted for GMRS, and far too much radio, and likely to get someone into difficulties, who is just looking for a simple, 3 mile communication system.

If that is a concern, Motorola markets inexpensive repeater capable GMRS HT's for under $100 for a pair. MR355R, MS355R, and MS355R are the current models.

Even without a repeater, these GMRS HT's will provide better range, much smaller form-factor, and far better audio since they are FM instead of AM.

4-GMRS antenna's are limited to 20 feet above terrain, or the structure they are mounted on.

Most structure's roofs are at least 20' already. Using a tripod and 20' of mast for the antenna would be perfectly legal, and produce the suggested 40' of height.

For that matter, there's nothing in the rules that would prevent one from mounting their GMRS repeater antenna's 20' above a 500' tower...

...except for the obvious expense of course!

 

[Nutes]

Okay.....Man that was allot of input from some different degrees or perspectives. Much appreciated. If I go the GMRS route and obtain the license I was thinking of this:

Has anyone tried out this mobile radio yet new on the Market.

Midland MXT100 MicroMobile GMRS 2-Way Radio

I was sort of curious about using this as a GMRS base station radio (although I would need to think through the power source issue). The price seems reasonable.

I would use LMR 400 or better cable no ifs ands or butts here. It would be about a 50ft. run.

Was considering starting out with my copper J Pole Antenna (tuned to right length for 462 MHZ) as a starter antenna, then upgrading to better later if I need to.

I would like a two way radio set to match to the base station that is Military 810 Spec. I know this seems like overkill but I know these things are going to get dropped in mud and thrown around by my kids etc. Seems all I can find is the Midland GTX5000. It seems pricey though. Other suggestions here for the portable set? I just have to have durability.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

N4GIX, your explanation certainly makes sense, and I respect the fact that many on here work in the radio field, and that is not my trade.

I understand perfectly installing a repeater at your home location, however, I was addressing the fact that it would not increase distance from the base. Planning for the future makes sense, however.

I get a little hot and bothered when people suggest BaoJunks for everything. If someone is proficient in radio use, and knows the rules and regulations, and then chooses to use a non type-accepted unit, I'm not gonna play radio police. But in my opinion, suggesting a wide open unit to anyone looking for an HT, is irresponsible. Most folks don't know enough, or care enough, about the technicalities of radio to use those things and stay out of trouble. I've had to run folks off the 2-meter band, who probably just bought a couple BoaJunks, picked a frequency, and started ratchet-jawing.



Delta

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Nutes, I concur with the other folks on here about GMRS being your best bet.

I love CB, I use it in my trade, (construction), but you will be very disappointed with hand-held CB's.

Here at the ranch, we use Midland GXT1000, and Kenwood TK-880H's as mobiles/base units. The Kenwood is capable of either 45 watts output, or 10 watts. The programming software is available free on the interwebs. You'll just need to get the cable, about 15 bucks. We're planning on upgrading to Kenwood TK280's for our handhelds.

I will say that in very mountainous terrain, UHF (GMRS) will certainly not give the performance of VHF. Unfortunately, there is not much available license-free, besides MURS, in VHF.

MURS is certainly a good option, but the availability of equipment is scarce. I can't really recommend buying modified Ham gear to run on MURS.



Delta

 

[Nutes]

Nutes, I concur with the other folks on here about GMRS being your best bet.

I love CB, I use it in my trade, (construction), but you will be very disappointed with hand-held CB's.

Here at the ranch, we use Midland GXT1000, and Kenwood TK-880H's as mobiles/base units. The Kenwood is capable of either 45 watts output, or 10 watts. The programming software is available free on the interwebs. You'll just need to get the cable, about 15 bucks. We're planning on upgrading to Kenwood TK280's for our handhelds.

I will say that in very mountainous terrain, UHF (GMRS) will certainly not give the performance of VHF. Unfortunately, there is not much available license-free, besides MURS, in VHF.

MURS is certainly a good option, but the availability of equipment is scarce. I can't really recommend buying modified Ham gear to run on MURS.



Delta

Yes I have considered MURS as a non licensed option. However, like you said, it just seems there are not allot of options out there in terms of base station radio and hand held options. I guess this is why I moved to considering CB and now GMRS.

 

[wyShack]

I would also have to suggest GMRS- handheld CB radios are at a huge disadvantage as antennas are not efficient ( a ground plane is simply not feasible for a handheld at that frequency). Based on the desired range, just about anything will work on the GMRS side. If base to portable (not potable to portable) is all that is required, put a good antenna just over the roof, use good coax and you should have no problem at all for 5 miles.

 

[N4GIX]

Has anyone tried out this mobile radio yet new on the Market.

Midland MXT100 MicroMobile GMRS 2-Way Radio

I was sort of curious about using this as a GMRS base station radio (although I would need to think through the power source issue). The price seems reasonable.

<snipped for brevity>

Was considering starting out with my copper J Pole Antenna (tuned to right length for 462 MHZ) as a starter antenna, then upgrading to better later if I need to.

I believe that the Midland would prove disappointing for a number of reasons, but the most important is the 5 watt output. It is also not repeater capable should you ever need it.

At only 5 watts at the antenna port, 50' run through even LMR400 would provide ~3 watts at the antenna. I have a copper J-Pole at about 20' I use for testing with 25' of RG213 coax. Since it is "unity gain" it is radiating only the power it receives at it's input port.

In range testing with 20 watts radiated power, I'm getting about 4 miles from a 1 watt HT (actually an MD-380 DMR running low power in analog mode). Switching to 5 watts range increases to about six miles at 70% reliability.

For portables (HT's) of the three Motorola radios I mentioned, the MS350R would likely be your best bet. The MS350R is "waterproof."

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Description[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Waterproof two-way radios use the GMRS radio band and provide coverage up to one mile in urban areas and up to 35 miles unobstructed under optimum conditions. 22 channels and 121 privacy codes eliminate interference from other users. Submersible up to 1 meter for 30 minutes. 11 weather channels (7 NOAA) with built-in Alert feature. Built-in LED flashlight. Emergency alert button warns others of impending danger. NiMH rechargeable battery lasts up to 9 hours or use three AA batteries for 27 hours. Power Source(s): NiMH Batteries; Number of Channels: 22; Color(s): Black/Yellow; Power: 1W.[/FONT]

Motorola 35 Mile Talkabout Water Proof Rechargeable Two Way Radio Yellow BL 843677001198 | eBay

For a base radio, you can find Kenwood TK series mobile radios for reasonable prices on eBay. Pay close attention however and only buy the -1 models, as they are the only ones that may be programmed for GMRS frequencies!

 

[Nutes]

So I am confused when reading the FCC rules on GMRS. With a GMRS license, using a BASE STATION Radio in my home, with an outdoor antenna mounted on my roof, am I able to transmit at 5 watts or 15? I understand that handhelds can only transmit at 5 watts.

 

[iMONITOR]

It seems every one is overthinking this. Standard off the shelf, legal AM CB radios should work just fine for your application. No need to complicate things with license expense/requirements, strict limiting rules, high cost repeaters, etc. Enjoy the freedom!

 

[N4GIX]

So I am confused when reading the FCC rules on GMRS. With a GMRS license, using a BASE STATION Radio in my home, with an outdoor antenna mounted on my roof, am I able to transmit at 5 watts or 15? I understand that handhelds can only transmit at 5 watts.

I'm not the least bit surprised! This is probably the most confusing part of the entire Part 95:

§95.135 Maximum authorized transmitting power.

(a) No station may transmit with more than 50 watts output power.
(b) [Reserved]
(c) A small control station at a point north of Line A or east of Line C must transmit with no more than 5 watts ERP.
(d) A fixed station must transmit with no more than 15 watts output power.
(e) A small base station must transmit with no more than 5 watts ERP.

Although not specifically stated, (a) refers to repeaters, although most GMRS repeaters limit their power to around 20 watts output, because more power tends to overpower (desense) the receiver with the inexpensive mobile duplexers used.

Sub-parts (d) and (e) are where most confusion arises, since there is no definition of what differentiates a "fixed station" and a "small base station." The interpretation most agree on is that a "fixed station" is one which is permanently located. In the olden days this required not only frequency coordination, but also information on the antenna's precise location and HAAT (height above average terrain). Thankfully this is no longer required! :wink:

A "small base station" is considered one that is portable and not used at any particular location permanently. Typically these would be used in conjunction with a repeater where 5 watts is more than enough in most cases.

Now, those are the rules, but the honest truth is that there is for all practical purposes ZERO enforcement of these rules, and hasn't been for nearly thirty years now. The FCC is underfunded, understaffed, and frankly have much more critical fish to fry than going after a rules violator on GMRS. We in the amateur community can't even pry any of them out of their field offices for serious, serial abusers! In actual fact, even those in the professional land mobile radio business can't get the FCC to investigate and fine violations.

The FCC will however get seriously involved if the violations are interfering with police, fire or other governmental agency's communications!