METCOM Fireground Channels

[natedawg1604]

I just heard a South Metro Medic Unit ask Metcom for a Fireground channel for training, and dispatch advised them to use "Fireground 4". The RR database shows METCOM FG-4 as 857.175 in P-25 mode with no NAC listed. Can someone confirm what frequency/mode/tone/NAC "Fireground 4" refers to? Are these channels fully repeated, half duplex or simplex? (I don't know why South Metro units would ask dispatch to assign a Fireground channel unless it was a repeated freq...)

 

[Toneslider12]

South Metro & Douglas County Firegrounds are digital simplex. The first purpose is for use in structures or areas with poor to no DTR repeater coverage which results in firefighter safety concerns. The second reason is for non-repeated training use so no one else but the crews involved hear it. I'll confirm the frequencies later when I have more time to look them up.

 

[Spitfire8520]

I know for a fact that the fireground channels are all operating in simplex. I haven't heard them in person, but I do think they are operating in P25. South Metro, MetCom, and Douglas County have a fairly simple Fireground/Ops channel numbering scheme. All DTRS Talkgroups are odd numbered Operations Channels and all simplex Firegrounds are even numbered Firegrounds.

MetCom, Littleton, and Douglas County all have ability to assign simplex frequencies for several reasons. The biggest reason is in the event of poor DTRS performance (poor site coverage or busy system), they are guaranteed to work in a localized geographical area so that personnel operating in Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health (IDLH) environments can have guaranteed communications. I believe in the earlier days of Douglas-Jefferson Trunked/DTRS things like poor coverage and building performance were much more prevalent and that is where they got a majority of their use.

They also do not put load on the DTRS site or take up an entire talkgroup and are perfectly fine for localized operations like training. In major incidents such as a wildland interface fires, multiple operations talkgroups will get assigned and units coming into the area will eventually overwhelm DTRS and start giving system busy signals due to lack of voice channels. This can be mitigated by shifting many things to fireground channels that don't need a repeated channel like staging operations, water supply, and even geographical incident divisions since they'll likely be working in close proximity. This does mean that incoming units will have inability to listen to operations as they are en route, but big incidents will likely be too busy and complicated to follow by that point.

South Metro generally has a fairly comprehensive radio usage training for their personnel and they are made aware of the benefits and limitations of an Operations vs. Fireground channel. The crew likely made a decision based on their radio needs. They were likely doing a training session at their station or elsewhere with a limited number of people and didn't want to the other crews of South Metro listening to their antics.

 

[natedawg1604]

So why do they ask dispatch which fireground channel to use, if Dispatch can't even monitor it?

 

[Spitfire8520]

So why do they ask dispatch which fireground channel to use, if Dispatch can't even monitor it?

Dispatch has the master list of who's on what at any given time. Channels are assigned and released over the air so that the dispatcher can prevent interference from other crews. It's important so that crews don't end up using a channel already being used and interrupting important operations. One can think of it as a proactive way of interference prevention as opposed to reactive.

 

[Toneslider12]

In major incidents such as a wildland interface fires, multiple operations talkgroups will get assigned and units coming into the area will eventually overwhelm DTRS and start giving system busy signals due to lack of voice channels. This can be mitigated by shifting many things to fireground channels that don't need a repeated channel like staging operations, water supply, and even geographical incident divisions since they'll likely be working in close proximity. This does mean that incoming units will have inability to listen to operations as they are en route, but big incidents will likely be too busy and complicated to follow by that point.

MetCom & SMFRA will be transitioning to the assignment of simplex channels immediately upon a division assignment on wildland incidents. Cherokee Ranch & Burning Tree were both perfect examples of DTR getting busied out and it creates huge accountability & safety concerns to change radio channels while crews are operating. It is the last thing we want to do actually. Local fire ground channels are useful for incidents that stay at a 2nd Alarm or smaller. Otherwise we run into the same interoperability problems faced on operations channels. When the Metro Strike Teams & Task Forces are activated none of those units have local tactical channels. Our push right now is to assign 8-Tac, V-Fire & V-Tac channels immediately for divisions, groups, staging etc. so that all resources responding can be plugged into the operation without the need for a cache radio they may not be familiar with.

In Douglas County after the I/A and or first operational period is complete; wildland incidents move over to the IMT VHF 205.

South Metro generally has a fairly comprehensive radio usage training for their personnel and they are made aware of the benefits and limitations of an Operations vs. Fireground channel. The crew likely made a decision based on their radio needs. They were likely doing a training session at their station or elsewhere with a limited number of people and didn't want to the other crews of South Metro listening to their antics.

For a few other reasons MetCom & SMFRA prefer the use of fire ground channels for training. The big reason is it allows us to free up the operations channels which are regularly used for incidents. Also when firefighters are practicing mayday scenarios and initial radio reports it helps eliminate confusion with neighboring agencies and the media. The ESK (emergency signal key) buttons are not functional in simplex mode and that helps prevent false activations during physical training.

So why do they ask dispatch which fireground channel to use, if Dispatch can't even monitor it?

MetCom does have the ability to monitor all fire ground channels and if the training / incident is close enough to the dispatch center everything can be heard. On several occasions MetCom and the Incident Commander have communicated solely on simplex during incidents in DTC / Inverness area. Also SMFRA Incident Safety Officers self assign fire ground channels when on scene and track which FG's are in use.

Here is the breakdown of Douglas, MetCom & Littleton Fire Ground Channels which probably need to be updated in the database....

Douglas FG4 - 856.2625 - NAC 293
Douglas FG6 - 858.2625 - NAC 293
Douglas FG8 - 857.2625 - NAC 293
Douglas FG10 - 857.2625 - NAC 296
Douglas FG12 - 856.2625 - NAC 296
Douglas FG14 - 858.2625 - NAC 296
MetCom FG4 - 856.2625 - NAC 29A
MetCom FG6 - 858.2625 - NAC 29A
MetCom FG8 - 858.2625 - NAC 296
MetCom FG10 - 857.2625 - NAC 29A
Littleton FG3 - 857.2625 - NAC 29A
Littleton FG5 - 857.2625 - NAC 296

Also, in the short term at least... MetCom Ops 9 will be patched with EM Dispatch and at times EM Ops Channels. Also MetCom Ops 15 is being used in place of Metro Net for coordination between LFR Control 1 and MetCom.

 

[Kevin_N]

I would like to thank Toneslider12 for all the great info. And thanks for not being anti-scanner like some people in Public Safety.

The info you and Troop, and others on here (Sorry I didn't name the others. I know there are several others.) provide is appreciated by those of us who appreciate Public Safety personnel.

Haven't heard from Troop in a while it seems like. Hope he's still around. Or it might be me. Haven't been coming here myself as much.

 

[Spitfire8520]

Here is the breakdown of Douglas, MetCom & Littleton Fire Ground Channels which probably need to be updated in the database....

Douglas FG4 - 856.2625 - NAC 293
Douglas FG6 - 858.2625 - NAC 293
Douglas FG8 - 857.2625 - NAC 293
Douglas FG10 - 857.2625 - NAC 296
Douglas FG12 - 856.2625 - NAC 296
Douglas FG14 - 858.2625 - NAC 296
MetCom FG4 - 856.2625 - NAC 29A
MetCom FG6 - 858.2625 - NAC 29A
MetCom FG8 - 858.2625 - NAC 296
MetCom FG10 - 857.2625 - NAC 29A
Littleton FG3 - 857.2625 - NAC 29A
Littleton FG5 - 857.2625 - NAC 296

Also, in the short term at least... MetCom Ops 9 will be patched with EM Dispatch and at times EM Ops Channels. Also MetCom Ops 15 is being used in place of Metro Net for coordination between LFR Control 1 and MetCom.

Appreciate the information Eric! We're certainly lucky that you are able to answer our questions.

Is there any reason why Douglas, MetCom, and Littleton all have different numbering schemes for these simplex frequencies/NACs? Some of the Firegrounds are duplicates of another, but labelled differently. Would this be for interoperability if, for example, a Douglas unit does not have MetCom's Fireground programmed?

For example:
Douglas FG10 and Littleton FG5 - 857.2625 NAC 296
MetCom FG10 and Littleton FG5 - 857.2625 NAC 29A
Douglas FG14 and MetCom FG8 - 858.2625 NAC 296

 

[Toneslider12]

Appreciate the information Eric! We're certainly lucky that you are able to answer our questions.

Is there any reason why Douglas, MetCom, and Littleton all have different numbering schemes for these simplex frequencies/NACs? Some of the Firegrounds are duplicates of another, but labelled differently. Would this be for interoperability if, for example, a Douglas unit does not have MetCom's Fireground programmed?

For example:
Douglas FG10 and Littleton FG5 - 857.2625 NAC 296
MetCom FG10 and Littleton FG5 - 857.2625 NAC 29A
Douglas FG14 and MetCom FG8 - 858.2625 NAC 296

You're welcome, I'm happy to share any and all public information I can. At the time DTR & Fire Ground channels were created in Arapahoe & Douglas Counties, MetCom didn't exist yet. Until the late 90's Littleton dispatched for Castlewood, Parker, Louvires, Roxborough, Glendale, Skyline & Cunningham. Then a few of those agencies left and went to Douglas County. The simplex fire ground channels are shared ownership by the actual fire districts and not the communications centers. When the FD's left Littleton they still wanted and needed to use the fire grounds so they were added into the new templates.

So... It really wasn't done with interoperability in mind but because only 3 frequencies are owned by the fire districts and they maximize the use with new & old partner agencies with the use of NAC's. The only planned interoperability was used between 2006-2010 for use with MetCom & Douglas County. The combination departments didn't have the new MetCom talk groups yet so Douglas Ops 11, FG12, Ops 13 & FG14 were the same exact channels as MetCom Ops11, FG12, Ops 13 & FG14. During those years any boarder incident between South Metro, Parker, Franktown, Castle Rock, West Douglas were assigned the high number ops or fire grounds so everyone could talk.

Today we bank on the geographic separation of districts to manage the duplicate fire grounds. It could certainly become problematic if those overlap simplex channels were assigned at or near the same incident and that is where the IDT and or IMT COML's are needed. Yet another good reason to use the NIFOG frequencies for high end Type IV and any Type III incidents when mutual aid from numerous counties are coming in for their 12 hour initial attack assignment.