Indianapolis, IN - Officers Ordered To Stop Profane Talk On Illegal Radios

[ShawnCowden]

INDIANAPOLIS -- Dozens of illicit radios were ordered removed from Indianapolis police cars after ham radio operators complained about the language officers used on radio frequencies they aren't supposed to be utilizing.
Officers Ordered To Stop Profane Talk On Illegal Radios - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis

[mikepdx]

There must be some mistake.
Police officers NEVER EVER break the rules.

MORE ANTI-POLICE PROPAGANDA!

[ralphb72]

Some of the comments on that article make me sick. If they wanted secondary radios on a separate frequency, then they should have done it the right way. I support the Police Departments 100% but if they can't be expected to follow the law then who can be?

[datainmotion]

Who paid for the radios?

[PolarBear25]

Originally Posted by mikepdx

There must be some mistake.
Police officers NEVER EVER break the rules.

MORE ANTI-POLICE PROPAGANDA!

Agreed. Outlaw ALL HAM RADIOS.

[newsphotog]

Originally Posted by datainmotion

Who paid for the radios?

My thoughts exactly. It sounds like a lot of details are missing here. Who paid for the radios? They're not FCC-approved devices, but why aren't they? Are they amateur radios modded for the police band? Or are they using amateur radios on the amateur bands without licenses?

The place I got my radios installed at also has contracts with a lot of sheriffs' offices and police departments around the state. When I was looking for bids to get my mobile install done, one of the things I asked is if they installed a lot of ham radios. They said yes, a lot of deputies who take their cars home with them every day request to have a ham radio installed in their console. They buy their own ham radios and are licensed to use them. I asked why a deputy would ever need a ham radio and my technician said a lot of them just use it for storm spotting, which makes sense. Seems totally legit, but the Indianapolis story is totally different.

The video on Indy 6's website said "hundreds" of these radios had been installed by the police garage and this started "decades" ago. It sounds like it was a department-wide problem that has been going on for a while.

That news story gave few details but the whole thing just isn't right.

[W9GC]

The FCC is letting Indianapolis police handle the issue internally.

"Bad officer! (inset token hand slap here) You police officers stop breaking federal law now, ok?"

How pathetic.

[KR4BD]

These officers were using 2 meter ham radios that could be altered frequency-wise. I don't want to give specifics, but a few years ago I was indirectly contacted, through a mutual acquaintance, by a new Indy Officer as to where he could buy a certain model ham rig. I advised him this was illegal, but he said he had to "join the club" so he would be in the loop with fellow officers. From what I could figure, the officers bought their own "second" radios.

[newsphotog]

Originally Posted by KR4BD

These officers were using 2 meter ham radios that could be altered frequency-wise.

The radios *could* be modified to work outside the amateur bands, but I'm still wanting to know if they used these on the amateur bands or if they *did* modify them to work on a different frequency, and if so, what band? Frequencies issued to IPD? Business? Something else?

[firetaz834]

The way I'm reading the story and I havn't had a chance to watch the video is that the officers had purchased the second radio to talk on frequencies that weren't monitored by there department, but that they didn't modify these radios, they used them on ham frequncies to talk about things they didn't want the department to hear.

Because if they were on a modified frequency, how would the amature operator monitor them so easily. So, I figuring that they were operating on just a standard amature frequency and were overheard.

[KR4BD]

My understanding is that they were using frequencies in the Marine Band (around 156-157 MHZ). Many ham rigs can be modified to operate on frequencies outside of the ham allocations.

[DiGiTaLD]

Most, if not all of these are self-purchased 2-meter amateur radios modified to transmit outside the amateur bands. Antennas usually consist of a trunk lip NMO mounted base-loaded 5/8 wave.

See these threads for past discussion:
http://www.radioreference.com/forums...6177-impd.html
http://www.radioreference.com/forums...freq-impd.html
http://www.radioreference.com/forums...equencies.html
http://www.radioreference.com/forums...es-156mhz.html
http://www.radioreference.com/forums...pd-needed.html

[SEMTTP]

I know that a lot of you will not agree with me on this one, but this is why I believe that you must have your ham license before you can purchase ham radio equipment. If it transmits on the HAM BANDS, you must present or send a photocopy of your ham license to the place that you are purchasing from. They should check the database, confirm your address and your callsign.

Simply put, if you are not a licensed ham radio operator then you cannot "legally" buy a radio that transmits on Ham bands.

As far as the indy police officers, someone needs to take this a bit further. Its great that that ham radio operators were able to follow this and report it and get the FCC to do something about it. For the most part Ham Radio Operators respect what the FCC has implemented. Those officers broke the law and violated the FCC rules. They should each be fined the set amount for using a transmitter on frequencies that they were not licensed for.

I usually back all LEO's, but this was unacceptable and should be shown that.

[rvictor]

I have a feeling that my Amateur Radio license plates might present me with a bit of a risk if I were driving in this area. Can't imagine that Hams are real popular with the police there right now.

Dick

[Septa3371CSX1]

After reading through the comments on the news story, it seems as though if the officers were using licensed freqs and not using profane language, this would never have been a problem. Here's my big quesiton: Why can't the officers use cell phones and/or Nextel for this type of dialogue? In my area, that's exactly what the cops do (hell, I see them on their cell phones more than I do on their radios). Also in my area it is not uncommon for cops to use some suggestive words or phrases (I've even heard "one ******* in custody") but I've never heard anything too offensive (then again, I'm 21 so what I find not to be offensive may be found offensive by an older person). Bottom line, if the officers want to have tac freqs they can talk to one another on, then the city should license a freq or two for them to use and make them pay for the radios and adhere to FCC guidelines when it comes to the use of profane language.

[kb2vxa]

Why do you guys always make clueless assumptions, are you no more intelligent than those who posted comments on the station's site? The article said they were transmitting on unauthorized frequencies (not licensed to the police department) and they were reported by ham operators. Based on that scant information just what makes you think Amateur Radio had anything to do with it? You assume and you do know how to spell "*** u me" now don't you? You may be right but when you're wrong and you often are you look pretty darn stupid... HEE HAW.

Here's more for our resident newsy, I know plenty of LEOs who are hams and have had their installs done by department techs but none have mentioned if they had any in the patrol vehicles, the subject simply never came up. No problem if they had unless it's against department regs, as long as you're licensed it doesn't matter what kind of rig you use, even programming Amateur frequencies into the vehicle's radio is practical and legal. In fact I know a radio tech working for the State Police who has an official maintenance van full of their radios having Amateur frequencies also programmed and he uses them during slack time. I'll go you one better, there is an Amateur 2M repeater in the Springfield NJ police station, WA2BAT we call "the bat" obviously.

[mikepdx]

Originally Posted by Septa3371CSX1

Here's my big quesiton: Why can't the officers use cell phones and/or Nextel for this type of dialogue? ... if the officers want to have tac freqs they can talk to one another on, then the city should license a freq or two for them to use and make them pay for the radios and adhere to FCC guidelines when it comes to the use of profane language.

Why can't they use cell phones/Nextels?
Probably because a lot of the communications are NOT official business,
while they're supposed to be on duty and conducting official business.
A great deal of personal B.S.ing on their "private" Tac, I'm sure.

As for additional talkgroups.
I'm sure they already have official Tac talkgroups.
All talkgroups are likely recorded, as they are in my area.
They sure as hell don't want that.

[DiGiTaLD]

Originally Posted by mikepdx

As for additional talkgroups.
I'm sure they already have official Tac talkgroups.
All talkgroups are likely recorded, as they are in my area.
They sure as hell don't want that.

Yes, there are plenty of additional talkgroups systemwide, many of which are actually not monitored by a control operator unless there is a special detail or event using that group that requires a control operator. AFAIK, not every single talkgroup on the system is recorded all of the time. "Tac" radios were just easier because an officer didn't have to worry about being on another channel on his/her primary radio chit-chatting with somebody and missing a run or other important traffic because they weren't on the primary dispatch group for the area they're working.

While I personally tend to disagree with the unlicensed use of spectrum by anybody, I was definitely not one of the complainers in this situation. It goes on everywhere, though. That certainly does not make it right, but then again there are bigger issues in the nation and world than illegal "tac" radios.

I think it would actually be beneficial for all involved were the agency to actually sanction several licensed VHF conventional channels (maybe the VTACs), and facilitate procurement and installation of appropriate equipment to both serve as simplex car-to-car channels, as well as fallbacks in the event of egregious system failure. This will likely never happen, but it would be a great option to have.

Right now, the only officially sanctioned conventional fallback every single public safety professional in Indianapolis-Marion County has are the 800 MHz ICALL/ITAC channels, and there are a limited number of repeaters on those channels in the Indianapolis area. Add to this the fact that the only radio the vast majority of officers have is a highly system-dependent portable, and you have a potential recipe for communications disaster if there is a massive infrastructure failure. VHF radios in the cars would provide another option that would be fairly reliable over modest distances with absolutely no infrastructure required.

VHF is largely becoming depreciated in central Indiana, especially in the Indianapolis metropolitan area due to the mass exodus to 800 MHz trunked in the counties surrounding Indianapolis for "interoperability" reasons. There are a few holdouts, and most counties still maintain some kind of quasi-functional backup on VHF, but it is largely no longer used as a primary means of communications. Several counties in the metro area, including Indianapolis-Marion County, have been on 800 MHz trunked for years and years already, and maintain no VHF or other fallback system on another band. The spectrum is sitting there unused, so why not get a license and have a few legal "tac" channels (with users following rules and common decency, of course) that could also serve as a backup? My 2¢.

[DDan]

To use VHF frequencies as a backup the dispatchers would have to have VHF radios? They wouldn't use VHF the same way if they thought someone back at the station might be hearing them. This seems to be a case of LEO private channels that no one was monitoring IMO.

[mikepdx]

Originally Posted by DDan

They wouldn't use VHF the same way if they thought someone back at the station might be hearing them. This seems to be a case of LEO private channels that no one was monitoring IMO.

BINGO!
That's the crux of the issue.

Originally Posted by DiGiTaLD

The spectrum is sitting there unused, so why not get a license and have a few legal "tac" channels (with users following rules and common decency, of course) that could also serve as a backup?

Here's why not:
They didn't want an "official" "sanctioned" channel or channels.
IT DIDN'T MEET THEIR NEED.

They wanted a private channel to shoot the B.S. on.
Unencumbered by radio etiquette, rules or regulations.
I have no doubt, that from time to time, it was also used for crime fighting purposes.

Just one small problem.
It was ILLEGAL!