Key Army radio system has a 72 percent failure rate

[BenScan]

"The Defense Department's top weapons tester told lawmakers at a hearing Wednesday that a key component of the Army's battlefield network now in development failed 72 percent of the time in tests last year. "
Key Army radio system has a 72 percent failure rate - Nextgov

 

[mm]

only 72% huh, so I guess with #'s like this the DOD will probably keep purchasing equipment, after all they still need to keep the crappy economy moving some way.

If they cancel contracts I'm sure some big wig Senator will start screaming.

And since the General Dynamics facility is down in Scottsdale AZ I'm sure McCain will keep GD's cpontracts alive even if it shows signs of problems in the future.

 

[ff-medic]

I worked Military commo for sometime , and I really can't get the grasp of this story.

I was one of the first people to help field and test the new " SINCGARS" radio system , when it first came out. "Relying on runners" seems odd to me, as I will not go into on the boards - but there is a protocol for
if a radio system fails , and or crypto goes bad ; to fall back on. It was not , nor do I belive it is now = a Courier. Pipe Dreams ; babys if and ya asks me. The Military still uses couriers I belive , but usually for transportation of sensitive documents intercontinental and international. You can mail classified mail up to "Top Secret" - Other than that , I will let you " Deduce". Couriers on the battle field ; people this is not World War one or two.

The PRC radios were great radios, then along came SINCGARS ; with frequency hopping mode. After I got out ; I understood that "Frequency Hopping" can be defeated. I will not say how on open forum ; but I have not confirmed it. No - You cannot listen to the voice in secure mode / encrypted - But SINCGARS I hear can be defeated. I will give you a hint = there is a reason why there is no Military Comms in an offensive operation ; until the offense begins ( Ding - Ding - Ding ) ; and ; in a Military setting you use the lowest power possible ( Why ). A few rhetorical questions out there for you folks.

SINCGARS came out ; plus Again - not to go into it on the boards deeply; but there is also a low band telephone system. All designed to give the Ground Commander , Operations , Intel and Radio folks a wide variety of radio communications on teh battle field to maintain a span of control. I have not even got into satellites yet.

The former PRC radios were reliable - durable and dependable. Hard working and capable of use in all kinds of weather. SINCGARS ( again ) ame out ; worked wonderfully and after the "ground pounders" proved it's worth - the U.S Air Force adopted it as well as " HAVE QUICK ".

Don't believe everything you read about Military Comms. Protocols to fall back on keep the operations safe and secure ; and keep the existing operation going as planned.

There are no more couriers running on the battlefield , or training. Trust me !!


FF - Medic !!!

 

[ff-medic]

only 72% huh, so I guess with #'s like this the DOD will probably keep purchasing equipment,.

I don't belive in this day and age. Did yu happen to read a copy of the contract between the contractor and the U.S Government. There is each individual military branches Inspector General , as well as the Government Accounting Office + Congress. Overspending , mismanagement does occur I will grant you ; but not without ruining careers. Senior officers overseeing a project usually dont get promoted and seek early retirement , or early out ; which ever applys.

If they cancel contracts I'm sure some big wig Senator will start screaming..

Let him scream. It's their job to not only protect their constituants and voice their care and concerns ; but it is their job to handle money responsibly.

FF - Medic !!

 

[NDRADIONUT]

I would comment...but i just can't get into it on a board.....trust me !

 

[ff-medic]

"The Defense Department's top weapons tester told lawmakers at a hearing Wednesday that a key component of the Army's battlefield network now in development failed 72 percent of the time in tests last year. "
Key Army radio system has a 72 percent failure rate - Nextgov

Lets make sure that there is not favoritism going on for another ; or competing contractor. Is there any partisanship? Any favoritism for a competing contractor?

I know...I have the answer. Lets let "Harris Communications" corner the market ; so they can set their own price and price gouge the U.S Military and the taxpayers. As in an above post. The folks with the little gold badges from the Inspectors Generals Office are great at sniffing things like this out. And...And in most cases - they take fraud agains the U.S Govt seriously. If there is something incorrect - there will be compensation made to the Military , the U.S Govt ; and in most cases ; some people actually go to prison.

Nothing against Harris.....But sticking the little guys needs to stop. Conversations with cigars and a $200.00 meal at a fancy restrauant needs to stop.

FF - Medic !!!

 

[Hooligan]

I would comment...but i just can't get into it on a board.....trust me !

Hahaha, yeah, ff-medic was being more cryptic than a Navajo Code-Talker!

"WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!"

The program is in DEVELOPMENT stage. Some of you can't seem to grasp that development means testing & evaluation, even though the article clearly mentions that several times, and instead, you go on a rant about fraud in the military-industrial complex and/or how you used to be a military communicator but can't communicate much about it...

There's only so much that engineers can do in a lab/simulation environment. At some point in time you need to field the system to some military monkeys in order to see if the system is anywhere even close to being ready for production and deployment.

The answer, according to the article, is a resounding NO! Let's hope that message was understood loud & clear by the developers, even though it apparently wasn't understood very well here.


I played with one small aspect of this system as recently as this week, transmitting rough, black & white video from a helmet embedded camera though a soldier-carried PRC-148 radio to a small video monitor connected to a PRC-152 handeld radio. The video was far from Youtube quality, even at a short distance, but it was a good basic demo using a pretty complex RF link.


The good news is that this stuff is all pretty much using Software Defined Radio ("Software Compliant Architecture") technology these days. I'm not one of the project engineers & normally don't even play with such things, but my impression is that the JTRS hardware is good, it's mostly software issues that are causing the problems.

 

[mm]

I didn't clarify my response sorry,

my point was that no matter how early the systems are deployed and how poorly they work, that in this economy politicians are going to push for them when it comes down to helpingfirms in their states get and keep contracts.

I'm sure that some manner of all these systems will be used by the military as opposed to people in the private sector loosing jobs.

 

[n9nwo]

The Tactical systems today are made by Harris. They are the PRC-117F/G (G will do 30 MHz to 3 GHz), the PRC-152 (HT, 30 to 512 MHz) and the PRC-150 (HF 2-30 ALE). The Falcon III series are Software Defined Radios (SDR).

One of the things is that the PRC-152 (which replaced the PRC-148) and the PRC-117F/G is that they will also do aviation comms and SATCOM.

 

[ff-medic]

I didn't clarify my response sorry,

my point was that no matter how early the systems are deployed and how poorly they work, that in this economy politicians are going to push for them when it comes down to helpingfirms in their states get and keep contracts.

I'm sure that some manner of all these systems will be used by the military as opposed to people in the private sector loosing jobs.

Well, Kinda yes - Politicans want to keep the pork rolling in. But the private sector supports the military , and I project the Military is going to have plenty of business ( missions ) for the next ten years or so.

Its like the "MRAP" vehicle. It should have been devised years ago , in the projection for future conflicts ; ANYWHERE on the planet. Wheather it is in the Middle East fighting Terrorist - South America for conflict against teh drug cartels , or God forbid - Europe again going against Germany.

Vehicles , Gear , weapons, communications , computers - - > all need updated , enginners going over the specifics with manufacturers for updated equipment. How long was the PRC Series. No body wants to come up with a solution till the problem arises. Its the Govts Job to preplan problems and have a solution in place before the problem arises. The U.S Military depends on good , reliable and dependable equipment - Lives of our Military Personnel depend on it. To cheat or deny them what they need , after being sent into harms way is just wrong.

Politicans helping keep business in their states, yes is purely political - But one politican washes the others back. If you dont play politics ; A politican could wind up being denied new business contracts in their district / state. So , you have to loose some in politics , to gain some. help your buddy out , and they help you. Votes on the floor for business is what counts , and votes = jobs and income.

Politicans can push and push , but in the end to push for a defective contract..usually the politican looses ; some where down the line - either their constituants / voters gets them , or the press eats them alive on the story ; and if oyu wind up on the presses radar ; your whole life is an open book..Oops. And other media outlets ; instead of gathering facts ; most usually go with teh current consenus of you are either liked or disliked ; and if you are disliked , it is like adding tons of raw beef to an ocean of sharks, the politican will never last,

FF - Medic !!!

 

[ff-medic]

Hahaha, yeah, ff-medic was being more cryptic than a Navajo Code-Talker!

"WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!"

The program is in DEVELOPMENT stage. Some of you can't seem to grasp that development means testing & evaluation,.

Research and Devolopment - where the real money is needed to get the project off the ground.

There's only so much that engineers can do in a lab/simulation environment. At some point in time you need to field the system to some military monkeys in order to see if the system is anywhere even close to being ready for production and deployment.

Yep , food companys stick a food product on the shelves of stores(s) to see if it will sell. Cereal , snacks, cakes..ect..ect. - Consumer input ; and it is a proven system. Not only to see if it works ( is liked ) but if there is " Profit " in it. Shareholders wanna know.

The good news is that this stuff is all pretty much using Software Defined Radio ("Software Compliant Architecture") technology these days. I'm not one of the project engineers & normally don't even play with such things, but my impression is that the JTRS hardware is good, it's mostly software issues that are causing the problems.

"Software" ? Yep , upgraded electronics. What happened to "K.I.S.S" ( keep it simple stupid )? Software has its cons , and its problems. Just a good ole simple circuit board is good enough for me - coaxs, cables , programs..ect..ect. What will succeeed software I wonder?

FF - Medic !!!

 

[jks19714]

SDR stands for Software-Defective Radios. Having Boeing building radios makes as much sense as having Motorola build bombers.

john

 

[n9nwo]

SDR stands for Software-Defective Radios. Having Boeing building radios makes as much sense as having Motorola build bombers.

john

I used the PRC-117F, the PRC-148, the PRC-152 and the PRC-150 in Afghanistan. The PRC-148 was made by Thales (RACAL) but everything else was made by Harris RF. They won the contract for the Joint Tactical Radio System.

The radios work, they do SINCGARS, SATCOM and normal single channel stuff like talking on the military aviation frequencies. Yes they are expensive. But then the PRC-148 was $7000 per radio and it was made by Thales. Back in the '90s everyone in the AF had them and we in the Army wanted them.

Sorry but it is a different world when you are in combat. This stuff works and it works even when troops abuse it.

 

[Cowthief]

Hello.

First off, frequency hopping is anti-jam anti-DF, it is NOT a secure mode.
The AN/PRC-148(*) also has encryption for this very reason.
Second, SINCGARS runs at a little over 100 hops a second, slow enough for modern automated jammers to follow, no secret.
Finally, yes, the RF Harris units are what the US military went with, the Thales unit was introduced as a joint France/UK effort and nearly 1000 were sold to the Chinese!
Again, the Thales unit was introduced as the MBITR, Multiband Inter/Intra Team Radio, the NATO number came later.
It is not a US design, no matter what anyone tells you, I have one of the UK models that conforms to the Commonwealth standards.

 

[SCPD]

I worked Military commo for sometime , and I really can't get the grasp of this story.

I was one of the first people to help field and test the new " SINCGARS" radio system , when it first came out. "Relying on runners" seems odd to me, as I will not go into on the boards - but there is a protocol for
if a radio system fails , and or crypto goes bad ; to fall back on. It was not , nor do I belive it is now = a Courier. Pipe Dreams ; babys if and ya asks me. The Military still uses couriers I belive , but usually for transportation of sensitive documents intercontinental and international. You can mail classified mail up to "Top Secret" - Other than that , I will let you " Deduce". Couriers on the battle field ; people this is not World War one or two.

The PRC radios were great radios, then along came SINCGARS ; with frequency hopping mode. After I got out ; I understood that "Frequency Hopping" can be defeated. I will not say how on open forum ; but I have not confirmed it. No - You cannot listen to the voice in secure mode / encrypted - But SINCGARS I hear can be defeated. I will give you a hint = there is a reason why there is no Military Comms in an offensive operation ; until the offense begins ( Ding - Ding - Ding ) ; and ; in a Military setting you use the lowest power possible ( Why ). A few rhetorical questions out there for you folks.

SINCGARS came out ; plus Again - not to go into it on the boards deeply; but there is also a low band telephone system. All designed to give the Ground Commander , Operations , Intel and Radio folks a wide variety of radio communications on teh battle field to maintain a span of control. I have not even got into satellites yet.

The former PRC radios were reliable - durable and dependable. Hard working and capable of use in all kinds of weather. SINCGARS ( again ) ame out ; worked wonderfully and after the "ground pounders" proved it's worth - the U.S Air Force adopted it as well as " HAVE QUICK ".

Don't believe everything you read about Military Comms. Protocols to fall back on keep the operations safe and secure ; and keep the existing operation going as planned.

There are no more couriers running on the battlefield , or training. Trust me !!


FF - Medic !!!

That was actually painful to read

 

[KE4RWS]

Sincgars

I used the PRC-117F, the PRC-148, the PRC-152 and the PRC-150 in Afghanistan. The PRC-148 was made by Thales (RACAL) but everything else was made by Harris RF. They won the contract for the Joint Tactical Radio System.

The radios work, they do SINCGARS, SATCOM and normal single channel stuff like talking on the military aviation frequencies. Yes they are expensive. But then the PRC-148 was $7000 per radio and it was made by Thales. Back in the '90s everyone in the AF had them and we in the Army wanted them.

Sorry but it is a different world when you are in combat. This stuff works and it works even when troops abuse it.

I worked for General Dynamics through the 1990's and we were one of two companies manufacturing SINCGARS for the US Army at the time (the other was ITT). The army wanted a single-source supplier and both companies bid for it and ITT was awarded the contract since they came in a million dollars cheaper under us. But it was nice to know the most sophisticated communications/data system on the planet was made by the cheapest bidder at the time. You know how that goes . . .

By the way, I remember buying an MTX9000 from you back in 2004. That's been a great radio and I still use it nearly every day on our local 33cm repeater. As I recall it was a really great deal too. A rather belated "thanks" is in order here