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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2011, 10:52 PM
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it can happen only by federal goverment and they are STUPID and CROOKS
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Old 04-01-2011, 2:00 AM
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Originally Posted by PHOENIX_SCANNER View Post
I have zero doubt that the parts of the spectrum currently reserved for hams will be taken away, it's more a matter of when than if.

I know some think it's a great hobby, but in reality there are a lot more important things that could be done with that slice of spectrum than the rag chewing that happens there 99.9% of the time, where people talk about their aches and pains, weather, and of course, their radio equipment.

You always hear the old fallback that it's the only reliable means of communication following a disaster. However I have yet to see anyone post links to stories where hams with their HT's saved the day in any of the most recent disasters.

After Ike, people I know on the ground there told me that emergency responders had radio service thanks to a robust emergency backup plan and proper system planning. From what I understand hams at the most helped coordinate some food / water supply points, though the Red Cross which has it's own radio equipment was already doing that right off the bat as well. So even there the actual value of their services comes into question. I have searched, but never really found a single concrete example / source that shows that hams played any significant role in disaster relief in recent times, and ham radios have zero value to emergency responders who have far more robust equipment / systems / backup systems in place.

The hard reality is that ham radio is largely a vehicle for rag chewing and gadget play, and as spectrum becomes more precious it's going to go away, along with GMRS / FRS, since almost nobody in today's world uses such things other than a very small group (percentage-wise) of mostly older die-hards.

Nothing against ham operators here, but it is what it is.
Do you remember February of 2010, when horrible weather hit a large part of Arizona? Snowstorms across Northern AZ and regular storms and small tornadoes in the Valley? well, the storms brought plenty of communications issues at least in Yavapai Co, many of my friends had issues with their cellphones, and those of us on the Nextel network were getting all sorts of errors and had trouble connecting to the networks. With 2 mobiles, a base and a handheld me and a friend had no issues communicating whatsoever, but cellphone communications were a different story.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 10:00 AM
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Cool Usa article wrong!

Funny....I have never seen the 420-440 mhz range ever used for emergecy services, no storm spotting, no reports sent to the NWS, and certainly never used as emergency backup communications. In fact, all of the services that the USA article speaks of would more than likely all be on the 441-450 mhz range where repeaters or simplex frequencies would be utilized, In fact, about the only operations (if at all) that are found in
the range that we would be losing is satellite operations. So the part of the band that we would be losing would not even effect emergency service operations (in my opinion). In reality, most of the emergency operations would be conducted on 2 mtrs anyway. Lets face it fellow hams, we all know that the 420-440 mhz range rarely ever gets used by any of us except for a few satellite ops, we never used this range before, now we wanna cry "foul" and lead the gov't to believe that we actually use this range for emergency operations? It really makes me wonder lol. Bottom line, if you don't use it, you lose it!
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kf4mnd View Post
Funny....I have never seen the 420-440 mhz range ever used for emergecy services, no storm spotting, no reports sent to the NWS, and certainly never used as emergency backup communications. In fact, all of the services that the USA article speaks of would more than likely all be on the 441-450 mhz range where repeaters or simplex frequencies would be utilized, In fact, about the only operations (if at all) that are found in
the range that we would be losing is satellite operations. So the part of the band that we would be losing would not even effect emergency service operations (in my opinion). In reality, most of the emergency operations would be conducted on 2 mtrs anyway. Lets face it fellow hams, we all know that the 420-440 mhz range rarely ever gets used by any of us except for a few satellite ops, we never used this range before, now we wanna cry "foul" and lead the gov't to believe that we actually use this range for emergency operations? It really makes me wonder lol. Bottom line, if you don't use it, you lose it!
In the Detroit area, the 420-430 MHz range is used by some public safety and SMR operators and is off limits to HAMS already.

The 430-440 MHz range is heavily used for repeater links for voting receivers for many of the 2M machines in the area. My county's primary 2M ARPSC/ARES/Skywarn repeater has multiple receive sites for coverage, all linked back to the voter in this range.

When the counties in this National Weather Service area (17 counties) report to the NWS office in White Lake, MI, it's almost all done over multiple linked 440MHz repeaters.

As you can see, while the band may not be used much in your area, losing the 430-440 MHz range would definately have an effect on our ability to provide skywarn communications in this area.

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 11:37 AM
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If anyone was to read the full proposed bill by Rep. Peter King R-NY, then they would see that this bill is NOT JUST ABOUT HAM'S. This bill http://homeland.house.gov/sites/home...s/HR%20607.PDF, states in section 207(a)(1) "Not later than 8 years after the date of enactment of the Act, each public safety entities shall end their use of radio spectrum above 420 megahertz and below 512 megahertz and begin to use alternative radio spectrum licensed to public safety services in the 700 megahertz and 800 mega hertz bands." This clearly states EVERYONE from 420MHz to 512MHz will be have to relocate. ONLY in D.C. can something like this be proposed.

Unless I read it wrong, I believe that the bill is also looking to eliminate all users of the 150 to 174 MHz or so and move them to the 700 MHz band.

Regardless of what the frequencies are that the bill is trying to take away from the current users, I don't know of any public safety agency that would be willing to give up what they have now and move to the 700 band. Big question is who is going to pay for it. The current users are having enough trouble just trying to find the funds to go narrow band. Now we are looking at throwing away all that money just spent and move again. Don't think that Rep. Peter King has had very good information on just what the results of the bill would be if it get adopted. It almost smells like some back room wine and dine from one of the major radio companies looking to make a killing on selling new radio equipment.

There is no way that the 700 band can even support a migration of all public safety agencies to it. There just isn't enough room to fit that many users in the big population areas into the space available. Plus the current users on VHF are there for a reason. Most of the time it is due to the region they are in to be able to get some range with their radio systems. Going to a 700 band system will require probably doubling the number of radio sites. In some parts of the country in the mountains, you are not about to get permission to build new tower sites. So now your hands are tied and you end up with holes in the radio system that worked just fine on the VHF band.

Tell me Rep. King just how your going to solve the range problem you just created by trying to force agencies off the VHF band? Maybe you need to sit down with some of the current users and find out just what the problems and issues are before you travel much further down the road with this 607 bill of yours.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 12:55 PM
   
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Default Ham Radio Bands

I am an Emergency Management Director and HAM Radio is a vital part of our emergecny management planning strategy. I can tell you that in my 30+ years in public service that when power and infrastructure are down HAM radio is the only reliable thing other than sattelite phones to get messages in or out. I am always disappointed when I see money and greed get into the way of good common sense, but again my mother always said "Son money is the root of all evil". Every year it gets harder to pay the bills and things like spectrum are easy targets to generate revenue streams. Hopefully cool head will prevail. JB
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 5:36 AM
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Default 220MHz

Can someone explain to me the status of the 220 band? I remember when they took it away it was supposidly for UPS or FedEx or something. At least that's what all the hams were saying. Does anyone use 220? I've seen 220 licenses on the fcc database but they didnt make sense to me. They were like a boradband license. I agree that the hams were not really using it but, now it is completely silent in my area.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 8:25 AM
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Arrow 220 Info

As mentioned earlier in this thread the 220 amateur allocation was originally from 220MHz t0 225Mhz, the bottom two MHz were the re-allocated by the FCC to Land Mobile mentioned earlier, for ACSB for UPS etc. Leaving the band as 222.00-225.00 MHz: CW, Phone, Image, MCW, RTTY/Data.
A few years ago the amateus got 1 MHz back with The FCC has allocated 219-220 MHz to amateur use on a secondary basis.

This 219-220 MHz allocation is only for fixed digital message forwarding systems operated by all licensees except Novices. Amateur operations must not cause interference to, and must accept interference from, primary services in this and adjacent bands. Amateur stations are limited to 50 W PEP output and 100 kHz bandwidth. Automated Maritime Telecommunications Systems (AMTS) stations are the primary occupants in this band. Amateur stations within 398 miles of an AMTS station must notify the station in writing at least 30 days prior to beginning operations. Amateur stations within 50 miles of an AMTS station must get permission in writing from the AMTS station before beginning operations. ARRL Headquarters maintains a database of AMTS stations. The FCC requires that amateur operators provide written notification including the station's geographic location to the ARRL for inclusion in a database at least 30 days before beginning operations. See Section 97.303(e) of the FCC Rules.

So the 220 Band for amateurs is thus 219.00 - 220.00 and 222.00-225.00 MHz.

I hope this helps!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 5:18 PM
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Default Encryption is least of our worries.

In areas where ProVoice (NoVoice) or OpenSky (Closed to monitoring) all traffic may as well be encrypted since no scanner can decode it. The change to P25 in my city has made monitoring very diificult especially mobile. They use enc full time on two TGs and as-needed on other TGs. Frankly I wanted to ask our PD PIO why some ops are NOT enc when they should be IMHO. But they might take that as a suggestion to go full time enc. I would. Having worked in the Security biz at times I wanted private comms. On the other hand as a private citizen/Security Ofc, having access to comms of local Police via scanner (or an authorized tranceiver on their radio system) was invaluable, and may have saved my life!

Hams and scanners listeners get stereotyped and stigmatized, even though both hobbies have legitimate uses. Tell me I have no right to listen to PS freqs during a natural or man-made distaster? You CAN NOT depend on the News Media to report in a timely manner NOR to report accurately. It could be a matter of life and death. So my scanner AND Amateur Radio are my personal News Media! When it all becomes un-monitorable I will feel less safe and less trusting of my Public Servants.

I helped test 700mhz LTE equipment. I could tune the frequencies on a receiver but the modulation was not decipherable. So I have to laugh at the laws banning reception of certain blocks of frequencies when our receivers cant decode the complex modulation anyway!

As a ham since 1978 I have observed both mindless ragchewing and real Public Service on ham frequencies. Never have used the 440 freqs at issue. ( It wouldnt hurt me to give up 220, since I never heard any activity on it - in PA, DE and TX). Losing part of 440 might not impact me unless the "new neighbors" cause interference or claimed our 440 ops interfere with theirs.
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Old 04-03-2011, 3:02 PM
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II just wanted to add that Ham Radio is still used in today’s emergency events. Last week I was in Grand Rapids, Michigan for a class / testing for the Technician license and the guy running the class is on the Search & Rescue team. This if I remember correctly SAR is for the most part a group of volunteers. Also the group is trying to get more people to earn an Amateur Radio license. Which I assume is to better coordinate the rescue efforts. There were other people from agencies in Battle Creek and other towns that I can not remember at the moment.

If you are wondering how often these people are actually called into help, the instructor mentioned the Grand Rapids SAR had 54 calls last year. Now that is not the norm for all of Michigan's Search & Rescue, but it does show the ham radio frequencies do get used for more than rag chewing. Granted I will agree that casual chat tends to be the primary use, but there is a lot of good that happens with the Amateur Radios.

Kent County SAR

I hope no one was offended by my two cents.

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2011, 7:11 PM
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Amateur radio is only a secondary allocation in the 440 Mhz band. The feds are the primary users, mostly military I think. Pave Paws comes to mind. If this wayward congress-critter thinks he's going to boot the military from the band, or even part of it, I think he's mistaken. It doesn't even belong to the FCC. It's NTIA turf.
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Old 04-03-2011, 7:51 PM
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Amateur radio is only a secondary allocation in the 440 Mhz band. The feds are the primary users, mostly military I think. Pave Paws comes to mind. If this wayward congress-critter thinks he's going to boot the military from the band, or even part of it, I think he's mistaken. It doesn't even belong to the FCC. It's NTIA turf.
FINALLY someone mentioned this.

This is a prime example of a bill that was crafted by legislators that have no idea what they're trying to do or the effects of the bill.

Welcome to Washington, DC.
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Old 04-03-2011, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kf4mnd View Post
Funny....I have never seen the 420-440 mhz range ever used for emergecy services, no storm spotting, no reports sent to the NWS, and certainly never used as emergency backup communications. In fact, all of the services that the USA article speaks of would more than likely all be on the 441-450 mhz range where repeaters or simplex frequencies would be utilized, In fact, about the only operations (if at all) that are found in
the range that we would be losing is satellite operations. So the part of the band that we would be losing would not even effect emergency service operations (in my opinion). In reality, most of the emergency operations would be conducted on 2 mtrs anyway. Lets face it fellow hams, we all know that the 420-440 mhz range rarely ever gets used by any of us except for a few satellite ops, we never used this range before, now we wanna cry "foul" and lead the gov't to believe that we actually use this range for emergency operations? It really makes me wonder lol. Bottom line, if you don't use it, you lose it!
I have to agree here...

Also, I have also never seen any hame operation from 420-439. Certainly 440-450, but not the aforementioned....
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:07 PM
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Also, I have also never seen any hame operation from 420-439. Certainly 440-450, but not the aforementioned....
420-439 is frequently used for repeater linking (point-to-point) and for SSB/CW, ATV, and other non-repeater, non-FM uses.
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:23 PM
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I have to agree here...

Also, I have also never seen any hame operation from 420-439. Certainly 440-450, but not the aforementioned....
Trust me,they ARE there. Look up Slow Scan television (SSTV) or Facsimile,this is where they live!

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Old 04-03-2011, 10:33 PM
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.... and ham radios have zero value to emergency responders who have far more robust equipment / systems / backup systems in place.
LOL... In MOST cases?? NOT!!!
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:20 AM
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How so, Congress sets law when it comes to the use of radio frequencies governed by the FCC. Congress tomorrow could take away all frequencies from everybody but Public Safety and get away with it. There is no constitutional amendment that allows the public to have any radio spectrum. Pretty scary if you think about it legally.
Well the pretty scary thing to really think about it is we have people in the government who don't even know the constitution, & The constitution although dose not directly stat that we have a right to frequencies there are a number of sections in the good old constitution that are aimed at civil liberties, Wouldn't this follow into a civil liberty, something as simple as electromatic fields ( Radio Waves are a set of oscillation see Radio frequency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for more ) Any naturally occurring substance on the earth = civil liberty in my mind ( also my i add that if the Constitution was still recognized as it should be we wouldn't have this problem cause that constitution makes the people of the USA the controllers over government who then do as we say, So one should really look into fixing that diffidently worked !! Better !! then the Great Oboma government fixing every thing & making up laws with out even going through the right steps any way! )
Not only this but, the reason this bill is proposed is the government thanks they can do every thing on there own.... Fact is during major events if it wasn't for HAM ..... well lets just go back to Katrina ( enough said right )

In simple form We can stop them from doing this Call your congressmen or women & tell them your thoughts ( or wright them ) Spread the word in the community the more people on board the more they will vote in your favor ( fear of getting voted out goes a long way i mean what would they do without the 250,000 year salary they get for doing nothing... ) Second Support the constitution we separated from england lets not through out the constitution & go back

With that said we gain the control back & what we wont starts happening again

( next they ban cell phones = P )
( Well im sure they get money from that some how so probably not )

Register to vote, Stay informed & make good choices & if all else fells run your self!!!!!!!!!
Theres my opinion on the situation
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:43 PM
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Funny....I have never seen the 420-440 mhz range ever used for emergecy services, no storm spotting, no reports sent to the NWS, and certainly never used as emergency backup communications.
It's very obvious you don't live in Iowa. During Tornado season specially, the band lights up with reports, spotters and reports to the NWS. Many of the systems that tie together to form the Skywarn network are in the 420 to 440 MHz band.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:50 PM
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If 420-440 is used in your area, especially for emcomm and non-FM efforts, lodge your information with the FCC and request that it be considered. Shoot a copy to ARRL as well so everyone's comments and complaints get looked at. Silence only maximizes the chances that we'll lose another spectrum segment. That's how we lost 11 meters to the CB craze,
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Old 04-05-2011, 4:32 AM
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Originally Posted by selgaran View Post
420-439 is frequently used for repeater linking (point-to-point) and for SSB/CW, ATV, and other non-repeater, non-FM uses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gewecke View Post
Trust me,they ARE there. Look up Slow Scan television (SSTV) or Facsimile,this is where they live!

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Okay, guys.... I will take my lumps! You have to understand... I live in an area where nothing ever goes on... I am surprised there are even repeaters here, for that matter.....
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