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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2011, 8:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmoore View Post

I saved that 1997 Opinion in my Bookmarks. Sounds like it's the responsibility of the Police to keep certain things off Radio Transmissions. I am no Lawyer, but sounds like scanner Police transmissions (besides the cases/examples noted) is open to the Public.

Is that your read on that 1997 Doc?
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2011, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianearlspilner View Post
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.2; en-us; DROID2 GLOBAL Build/S273) AppleWebKit/533.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/533.1)

Exactly. You would think that CA is a encryption state. Florida is nuts with encryption.
The agencies in CA know when to use encryption. It's not prudent to be using encryption for day-to-day operations or for marked units. Encryption should and is used for undercover ops and large scale operations.

Look at the cost of the infrastructure to support encryption: Each radio must have an encryption module in it, from the portables to the mobiles to the base units and repeaters. There has to be a sufficient number of KVLs available to rekey the radios. If the agency wants OTAR, then there's another layer of infrastructure and programming required.

With each one of the items above, it's nothing but $, and sometimes $$$$. That's money that could be better spent on actual operational expenses, especially in this economy.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2011, 9:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeybehr View Post
The agencies in CA know when to use encryption. It's not prudent to be using encryption for day-to-day operations or for marked units. Encryption should and is used for undercover ops and large scale operations.

Look at the cost of the infrastructure to support encryption: Each radio must have an encryption module in it, from the portables to the mobiles to the base units and repeaters. There has to be a sufficient number of KVLs available to rekey the radios. If the agency wants OTAR, then there's another layer of infrastructure and programming required.

With each one of the items above, it's nothing but $, and sometimes $$$$. That's money that could be better spent on actual operational expenses, especially in this economy.
There are a couple of problems with this logic. First if you go and and encrypt just one tactical channel in the radio then it adds zero additional cost to encrypt everything in the radio. The other is you can get low grade encryption such as ADP cheap or even free when you purchase a radio. Compared to other forms of encryption it's cheap to flash in the radio and doesn't require a kvl or infrastructure. Just the cps they already have to program the radios. Sure it's not strong but it is enough to keep scanners and other non agency radios out and provides legal recourse for the agency to go after anyone who may compromise the encryption. Also it is sufficient to prevent the agency from being streamed online.

Food for thought.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2011, 9:59 PM
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Encryption hurts interoperability.

A department with a major incident needs to be able to communicate with surrounding agencies quickly, and with a minimum of technological hurdles to be overcome. That is nearly impossible if agency A is encrypted and agency B is not/ does not have the key.

Don't think for one second that a department wouldn't keep radio frequencies secret from other LE agencies. It has happened before (thank you "local control")
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2011, 10:39 PM
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Easily solved by creating mutual aid interoperability talk groups or even temporary console patches.

Last edited by grem467; 08-04-2011 at 10:42 PM..
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2011, 5:00 PM
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All encryption does is make it a necessity for every news outlet to be at or near the scene to get breaking details as they occur since this informatoin is no longer available away from the scene.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2011, 5:12 PM
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From reading the Doc there is no reason a Sheriff's Office could not let people listen.The AG says that near the bottom,but he does advise the SO is responsible for what is said.I know JSO doesn't put the complainants info out.They give adress and a signal.Remember if you are a Ham you are responsible for everything you say that goes over the air. It's just a pissing match with the idiots admin of all these depts.
They don't trust the cops who work for them.Hey Germ467ie poooo
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2011, 8:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFPM571 View Post
the media is using the word scanner in place of radio. They arent taking the Scanners. The sheriff is taking back the portble radios. The media is making a bigger deal out of it than it needs to be. Im sure the sheriffs office has a PIO that when it is necessary they can contact the media if they feel there is a reason to notify the public.

It really does not work that way...you have it backwards. It is the publisher that decides what gets published,not the police or a PIO.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2011, 8:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2wayfreq View Post
The Encryption used is most likely AES-256 and NO, Your not going to be able to cobble together some deciphering program and "decode" it, try a Cray Super Computer...Maybe! And, don't think for one minute that some "Radio Tech" or System Admin in their right mind is going to happily throw their career away and compromise department security to make the media happy. Wont Happen!
Perhaps, but an HT is lost or misplaced for a few minutes and someone downloads the programming and the jig is up. Don't think it wont happen.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2011, 8:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WA6ARC View Post
Perhaps, but an HT is lost or misplaced for a few minutes and someone downloads the programming and the jig is up. Don't think it wont happen.
Even if that were to happen, the AES-256 would have to be hard key loaded, still wouldn't get the key from the radio. All you would do is get the basic stuff.
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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2011, 8:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ts548 View Post
Even if that were to happen, the AES-256 would have to be hard key loaded, still wouldn't get the key from the radio. All you would do is get the basic stuff.
Hardware isn't infallible. With a will there is a way.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2011, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatekeep View Post
Hardware isn't infallible. With a will there is a way.
Just to keep with the thread, you think that the media will still be able to listen because someone will leave their HT out somewhere that a reporter can 1) steal the radio unnoticed 2) get a programming expert to "find" the encryption in the radio 3) order a new radio and 4) clone it?

You don't know reporters very well
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2011, 1:15 AM
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Quote:
"You don't know reporters very well "
You mean they couldn't figure all that out?? And all this time, I thought reporters were pretty resourceful people... Although it's doubtful even a resourceful one would be able to find somebody that could get a key out of a stunned radio.. (disregarding the probability of rolling keys..)
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 8:27 AM
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The media has other avenues. Sometimes in indirect ways the media lets the public know they have lost confidence in certain people and that someone more compentent can fill the shoes at election time.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ScannerSK View Post
The media has other avenues. Sometimes in indirect ways the media lets the public know they have lost confidence in certain people and that someone more competent can fill the shoes at election time.
Uncut: Sheriff Says Scanner Decision 'Done Deal' - Video - WJXT Jacksonville

if you pay attention to the raw video of the sheriff answering questions about this you will notice he uses the words scrubbed several times in reference to the information that would be given to the public.
"The information going over the radio is unscrubbed"
we will give you scrubbed information.
The Sheriff was the only one in Florida being honest about this - Law Enforcement is not transparent and only wishes to give out the information they want people to have and limit their liability when an officer screws up.

The Sheriff misread the attorney General's opinion badly.

another reason this is happening i bet is the one reason we had for arguing against Orlando and other agencies encrypting everything is that JSO was allowing media access, well i guess the FDLE and law enforcement associations sewed that argument up.

Read all the Florida threads and really put 2 and 2 together, there is a very real effort and agenda on law enforcement in Florida to lock people out and control information, the term transparency in law enforcement is a sick joke

Orlando Encrypted shortly after a series of stories regarding excessive use of force, there are several youtube videos of OPD attacking the media and every so often another OPD officer gets in trouble for one thing or another...
Orange county (who the Sheriff happens to be the Husband of the previous OPD chief who encrypted) is encrypting soon
Lake County is encrypted and i have heard Osceola will eventually, Don Eslinger the Sheriff of Seminole is anti encryption but if he is ever elected out i bet you they will encrypt

Interoperability isnt really an issue as it looks like they are all going Motorola P25 so eventually all the local agencies will have the same equipment.

Another Case Study is Orange County California - Their Sheriff was under federal indictment so i heard when i was out there, hmmmm

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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scannerfreak View Post
What do you propose should be done about it?
Sorry was working and didn't respond - well several people in Orlando have tried to at least come to a compromise, but the agenda is set and most people could honestly care less about whether or not the agencies encrypt, they only care about whats affecting them, so public support to put pressure on these agencies is useless at this point, educating the public may help, and the media needs to continue the pressure, possibly to the point of not helping law enforcement at all.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2011, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elbirk View Post
I need to find a source of basic information about trunked systems, encrypted signals, encoded, signals--basically an explanation of the technology that we're talking about in these posts about public service frequencies that we can no longer monitor in the analog days. Thank you.
Trunking Basics - The RadioReference Wiki
Project 25 - The RadioReference Wiki

do a search on the wiki
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2011, 3:32 PM
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Default Scanners off at midnight in news room

Update on scanners in news rooms:

Police Scanners Turned Off At Midnight - Jacksonville News Story - WJXT Jacksonville
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2011, 11:14 PM
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If the media is going to have any say in this, they really need to learn that its not a scanner.
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Old 09-01-2011, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ts548 View Post
If the media is going to have any say in this, they really need to learn that its not a scanner.
I agree 110% just like every moron you see thinking a public safety radio is a "CB"
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