Des Moines, IA: Vandal turns off power to new police radio system

[alphabravo1]

Hey, I know that guy... it's Bobo from accounting, just the other day he was complaining about the high electric bills.

In reality, It sounds like enough "regular" people were not involved in the design, or somebody probably brought up a possibility like that, but was shot down because that would never happen being behind a fence.

And this can happen in "shared" sites, somebody will disconnect a repeater or radio because they don't use it anymore... only to find out it is still used albeit not that much. Usually doesn't make the news though.

[dupree617]

I can indeed see that happening with community repeaters. Were they may allow other unrelated business to use it as well. And because they themselves not use, they just cut it off.

Mike Dupree

[jackj]

You guys are getting WAY too paranoid about this. I will bet that there isn't one site in the USA that has a truly secure AC power entrance. The power company has to read the meter after all. The fiber optic backbones that carry 99% of the Internet traffic all have power entrances outside their buildings, some even outside the site fence. Satellite Earth stations, Cable Head stations for undersea cables, Cell towers and probably even the NSA all have unsecured commercial AC entrances. True, most of them will have some limited kind of back-up power but even on-site generator sets have a limited fuel supply and back-up power systems are not designed for extended duration outages.

When, or if this type of vandalism becomes a problem then steps will be taken to secure the power supply. Until then spending the money to fix a non-existent problem is a waste and will result in managers loosing their jobs.

[jeatock]

At least they had cameras. That's more than most. Security cuts both ways and requires that increasingly scarse commodity known as common sense. Simple to fix: position the meter and (mandatory) disconnect inside a fence where the meter can be read from outside, and make the idle passerby work to kill the power. Delay the 'power fail' alarm for fifteen minutes of continious loss to reduce hiccups.

Security fences are a deterrent, not a prevention. On a dark and stormy night a few months back I found myself throwing my turnout coat over the barbed wire and hauling my 50-something rear over the chain link fence because the site was down and the keyholder was out of town. It looks easy on TV and I figured that if 'they' could do it I could too. My wife wishes for video of that circus act...

Learn from your mistakes and move on with the knowledge; I now include a battery powered cut-off saw in my bag of tricks.

Insurance companies rate doors and locks by the number of minutes they will withstand an assault. Where there is a will there is a way, and dragons will do what dragons will do.

[shelleys1]

Originally Posted by jackj

You guys are getting WAY too paranoid about this. I will bet that there isn't one site in the USA that has a truly secure AC power entrance. The power company has to read the meter after all. The fiber optic backbones that carry 99% of the Internet traffic all have power entrances outside their buildings, some even outside the site fence. Satellite Earth stations, Cable Head stations for undersea cables, Cell towers and probably even the NSA all have unsecured commercial AC entrances. True, most of them will have some limited kind of back-up power but even on-site generator sets have a limited fuel supply and back-up power systems are not designed for extended duration outages.

When, or if this type of vandalism becomes a problem then steps will be taken to secure the power supply. Until then spending the money to fix a non-existent problem is a waste and will result in managers loosing their jobs.

Hi Jack,
Actually, you're wrong - St. Louis County (MO) Police Department has *very* secure tower/power sites and when the "meters are read" it's during hours when one of the employees and/or the contracted technicians will escort the readers to the locations. There are also alarms which go off (in several locations) when/if a site is tampered with.

Finally, at $4 million I wouldn't be surprised if it was a not-so-great consulting firm which helped them design and implement their system. (Granted, St. Louis County's large but the new radio system, currently being put together, was $75 million! I think Des Moines may have just been trying to get the "best price", etc. for their system...and, as no doubt you likely know, the "best price" most certainly doesn't mean the best system. *sigh*)

P.S. A significant amount of the St. Louis County PD's internet traffic is done via satellite (dishes also secured) - thus none of the typical underground wires and NSA *does* have their sites secured...no one goes near their equipment (reader or otherwise) without an escort!

Shell

[EC-7]

This "inncident" was just someone being bored and flipping a switch.
They are lucky that it wasnt copper theft, which if a loot more common.

Un-secured sites are pretty common. At most, someone needs to just hop a fence.
It reminds me of this video of a T-Mobile site. T-Mobile cell tower mayhem - YouTube

[kb2vxa]

"And this can happen in "shared" sites, somebody will disconnect a repeater or radio because they don't use it anymore... only to find out it is still used albeit not that much."

Pardon my chuckles but that reminds me of a similar situation. A local ham radio club has a 70cM repeater and the central node/BBS of the NJ packet radio network in the loft atop hangar 1 at Lakehurst NAS, the famous hangar built for the Hindenburg. 200' HAAT with a clear view all around is ideal, right? So thinks the military, government and a collection of regional and local first responders so the loft and roof are rather crowded. Therein lies the problem, techs are working up there all the time and every so often somehow one yanks the power cord to the club's equipment rack out of the wall socket and somebody has to go there to plug it back in when one eventually notices the node off the air.

Here's the funny part, install a twist lock plug and socket, problem solved. Wrong, it ain't that easy when the wall socket is government property and there is the ever present commandment: Thou shalt not tamper with US Navy property or Poseidon will smite you!

"It reminds me of this video of a T-Mobile site."

That's another chuckle. There is an emergency number to call but the site number is blank. Who ya gonna call? (I ain't afraid of no ghost.)

[Abb0]

And as shown in the T-Mobile video, all the cabling is exposed as well. If someone wanted to be destructive cutting through those would take the site off line, possibly for days! Two cuts a couple of feet apart and you'd have a real problem.

As for the subject of the Des Moines water tower, I've been to many similar radio sites where the power feed is very accessible.

[WayneH]

Originally Posted by dupree617

As for as security, I think we both would be surprise at the low amount of security at a site. Just the thought of how many fire department repeaters are at unman volunteer fire stations. With only a locked door as the only security. Just an ideal at how overlooked this is during planning.

Like the other post mentioned, if you can't protect access to the premise then yeah, you can typically shut everyone's power off. Because of electrical code you can't secure the service panels be it for shutting power off via the switch or stopping copper theft.

I've run in to this before when dealing with copper theft. The only thing you can do is keep them away with cameras (AND signs) in hopes that's enough. And surveillance more often than not is not helpful. With the T-mobile site, those cheap lock mounts on the disconnect covers are barely thicker than an aluminum can. I often don't secure my own since you can twist any lock right off (there's always a prem fence though).

That T-Mobile site should have a fence around it for one. The rest of the issues are typical T-Mobile.

[E-Man]

The real story is how vulnerable our water systems are nationwide.

[kb2vxa]

"I've run in to this before when dealing with copper theft."

If you've ever seen the aftermath of stealing copper from a power substation you understand the importance of adding chlorine to the gene pool to protect future generations. I have pictures but can't post them here, just imagine human shaped lumps of charcoal.

[E-Man]

Originally Posted by kb2vxa

"I've run in to this before when dealing with copper theft."

If you've ever seen the aftermath of stealing copper from a power substation you understand the importance of adding chlorine to the gene pool to protect future generations. I have pictures but can't post them here, just imagine human shaped lumps of charcoal.

I have made alot of money in overtime thanks to the tweakers who like to steal copper. Yep lots of body parts left behind sometimes.

I have the same gruesome pictures of the fool who climbed the substation and BBQ himself.

[jeatock]

Our electrical division had just finished installing 250 feet of primary coaxial copper for an industrial feed. That evening two fine upstanding youth who resided at the shallow end of the gene pool decided wrap one end of a chain around the pretty new wire, wrap the other end around the hitch of their pickup and yank it out. They apparently weren't paying attention the day their shop teacher was talking about how interesting hot 7,800 volt 3-phase can be.

The ensuing chase was short and slow: it's hard to go fast on four burning tires. Good thing they didn't climb out of the truck.

[iamhere300]

Originally Posted by shelleys1

Hi Jack,
Actually, you're wrong - St. Louis County (MO) Police Department has *very* secure tower/power sites and when the "meters are read" it's during hours when one of the employees and/or the contracted technicians will escort the readers to the locations. There are also alarms which go off (in several locations) when/if a site is tampered with.

Finally, at $4 million I wouldn't be surprised if it was a not-so-great consulting firm which helped them design and implement their system. (Granted, St. Louis County's large but the new radio system, currently being put together, was $75 million! I think Des Moines may have just been trying to get the "best price", etc. for their system...and, as no doubt you likely know, the "best price" most certainly doesn't mean the best system. *sigh*)

P.S. A significant amount of the St. Louis County PD's internet traffic is done via satellite (dishes also secured) - thus none of the typical underground wires and NSA *does* have their sites secured...no one goes near their equipment (reader or otherwise) without an escort!

Shell

Pretty silly to send a tech out with the meter reader, when a lower paid employee can unlock a gate. Even sillier when you figure most power companies have the capability to remote read the meters, never having to go on site. My site in STL has remote meters, 6 of them.

And the cost of the system? Perhaps we should not compare apples to oranges. There are major major major differences between the STL county system and the Des Moines system, which accounts for the vast majority of the price difference.

[Cowthief]

In Houston it was even worse.
The tallest building in Houston has plenty of radio equipment on the roof, so the local Motorola Service Center cut a deal with Harris county to put the then new trunking system on this site.
There were 2 problems with this.
First was the fact that the building owners had said no to this.
And the second was that this is a Nextel site and was even before there was Nextel, this was a fleetcall site.
So they put this brand spanking new system in place, and it will not work.
There is no fix for this, analog and iDen trunking on the same mast?
In the end a federal court ruled that the Harris county system was secondary.
The Superbowl came and went but not before Motorola paid $$$ to put up 2 new huts.
The Harris county system is under contractor control and is a transmit only site now.
But while this was going on the plug was getting pulled on a nearly weekly basis based on a new court ruling.
So, if Motorola can put in an entire trunking site without a valid site contract something as small as a power switch is very easy to understand.

[gewecke]

Originally Posted by iamhere300

Pretty silly to send a tech out with the meter reader, when a lower paid employee can unlock a gate. Even sillier when you figure most power companies have the capability to remote read the meters, never having to go on site. My site in STL has remote meters, 6 of them.

And the cost of the system? Perhaps we should not compare apples to oranges. There are major major major differences between the STL county system and the Des Moines system, which accounts for the vast majority of the price difference.

Slightly off topic, but your post reminded me of this!

Smart Meter Causes Dumb Fire | Threat Level | Wired.com

73,
n9zas

[iamhere300]

Originally Posted by gewecke

Slightly off topic, but your post reminded me of this!

Smart Meter Causes Dumb Fire | Threat Level | Wired.com

73,
n9zas

So there lays the next question.... Would the Fire Department have to wait on a radio tech to open up the site so they could put out the fire.....LOL....

It is a joke people....

[kb2vxa]

"I have the same gruesome pictures of the fool who climbed the substation and BBQ himself."

My pictures show two but we're surely on the same page. Yeah, a pickup with flaming tires doesn't go far but guaranteed there was a lot of damage to repair. Then there was a ham that got cleaned out, 4" copper grounding straps and a radial field under his tower gone. Same thing with a number of AM broadcast stations, fools don't know or care the grounding and radial field are the other half of an active antenna. I imagine a 50KW RF burn is rather painful considering an arcing tower fault I saw at WWKB in Buffalo, NY.

That reminds me of something heard on the scanner yesterday, missed the dispatch so I don't know where or what. Seems like someone scaled a fence and disconnected a grounding wire, could have said goodbye cruel world had there been a line imbalance with heavy neutral current flowing. The comments on that were... interesting.

[jackj]

"There's one born every minute." So said Mr. Barnum, but he was talking about fools.....well, I guess these guys qualify.

[loumaag]

Originally Posted by Cowthief

In Houston it was even worse.
The tallest building in Houston has plenty of radio equipment on the roof, so the local Motorola Service Center cut a deal with Harris county to put the then new trunking system on this site.
There were 2 problems with this.
First was the fact that the building owners had said no to this.
And the second was that this is a Nextel site and was even before there was Nextel, this was a fleetcall site.
So they put this brand spanking new system in place, and it will not work.
There is no fix for this, analog and iDen trunking on the same mast?
In the end a federal court ruled that the Harris county system was secondary.
The Superbowl came and went but not before Motorola paid $$$ to put up 2 new huts.
The Harris county system is under contractor control and is a transmit only site now.
But while this was going on the plug was getting pulled on a nearly weekly basis based on a new court ruling.
So, if Motorola can put in an entire trunking site without a valid site contract something as small as a power switch is very easy to understand.

The above quote is factually inaccurate in several areas. As a whole it is a complete load of crap. This "Cowthief" has a history of posting inaccurate and slanted information. Anyone reading this thread should probably ignore the quoted post. Since there is no rule against posting when you don't know what your are talking about, there isn't much the staff can do about such posts.