Caroline Co. VA - Communications gets a look...

[djm]

Communications gets a look in Caroline - The News Desk

The Caroline County Board of Supervisors will continue discussions Thursday night on a new public safety communication system needed to comply with a federal mandate that could add nearly 4 cents to the tax rate.

[jim202]

This has the classic smell of a slick sales force move on a public safety agency that hasn't done their homework or have an engineer look into the facts. Seen it way too often and the end results is the tax payer takes in the pocket book.

It also sounds like the radio shop / company is using the narrow band deadline as an excuse to push a trunking system. The public safety agency takes the easy route and at face value and just goes with the flow. End result is a new radio system is proposed and only the sales team makes out.

Does the County need a complete new radio system? Does the county need to transition to a trunking system? Without more details being supplied, it would be hard to come up with any answers to these questions.

The threat of fines and shutting down the current radio system is not a good reason to pressure the county. With the narrow banding deadline just a little more than a month away, there is no way a trunking system can be installed that fast. Which means all the VHF and UHF radios the county is currently using should have already been reprogrammed or set to be reprogrammed in the next 30 plus days. The FCC licenses should have already been modified for narrow band operation.

The facts given here just don't fit together with what little information has been given. Me thinks a skunk is rolling around the county.

[atrich1]

To jim202:

No we don't, I agree with you, there is no reason for us to move to a trunked system. We currently have a VHF system that could go to narrowband and continue to work. We do need some extra frequencies, we only have one repeated and one talk around for fire/rescue.

[fredva]

It also seems very irresponsible of the county officials to wait until less than two months before the narrowbanding deadline to decide what to do with their radio system.

[N5TWB]

Another chapter of the old story of a failure to plan becoming a plan to fail. A quick read of the WikiPedia article on the county shows it to have a population around 30,000 with notable natives in John Wilkes Booth and Triple Crown winner Secretariat. Based on the RRDB, it's not hard to make a case that the current radio system is likely inadequate, even for this Horse Country bucolic quiet rural setting. However, the proposal is an obvious grab for the taxpayers' wallet and probably a technology nightmare, to boot.

jim202 and the local area posters above appear to have it nailed. It's sad that the elected officials can't see it.

[quarterwave]

I've seen a similar instance of no-homework where I live.

The countywide fire system has been VHF for many many years...paging and repeater on same output...then each dept has their own ground simplex frequency. Well, many years ago when nearly all radio comms were mobile, meaning each truck had a 50-100 watt radio installed and each volunteer either had an early-style pager, or a Plectron at home and that how they were notified (we also had Fire Phone here too). As time marched on "people" wanted to be more mobile, so portables were all the rage. Every fireman had a pager and most had a portable.

For a system built as a high power mobile to base configuration....obviously the infrastructure needs upgrading to accomadate a now-portable user base (this started in earnest about 20 years ago or so). So for the past 20 years it's been nothing but a complaint and reaction system. Meaning....there is some issue with system coverage or operation, and they complain which then gets a, usually uninformed and knee jerk, reaction.

The fire association is technically clueless, aside from the know-it-alls (who don't know it all). The commissioners don't want to be involved, they push it back onto the association for them to find a solution and bring it back to the commissioners to pay for.

So through a series of band aids, it is now a network (lol) of various repeaters all on the same output freq, but either on a different input freq, or same with another PL. Paging goes out here there and everywhere. People say they don't get the page, when in fact the coverage is ok, it's mostly that they don't get then them "listening" for "their tones" on a junk portable is not the same as their PAGER actually being tripped.

They were presented a preliminary plan to keep paging on VHF, but nix all the other junk for a UHF multi-site, multi-zone repeater network or a UHF Trunking system built to portable coverage specs. This system was both versatile and easy to use. When presented with the solution, they simply said "We have no money for that" (in the 90's.)

So many thousands of bandaid dollars later the system works worse than ever, and the radio shop reluctantly sells them base stations, telling them this is not the way to make it work better.....

The radio dealer has not pushed anything on them, as in part of the scenario above, but has tried to help them, and no one listens. They just go back to griping and arguing. Now this year they spent alot of money to narrowband everything, and just bought another $25,000 repeater to add to the mess. And yesterday I heard they wanted to form a committee (of all the same numb nuts) to look at a new solution or going on the state system.

Amazing.

[jim202]

Originally Posted by quarterwave

I've seen a similar instance of no-homework where I live.

The countywide fire system has been VHF for many many years...paging and repeater on same output...then each dept has their own ground simplex frequency. Well, many years ago when nearly all radio comms were mobile, meaning each truck had a 50-100 watt radio installed and each volunteer either had an early-style pager, or a Plectron at home and that how they were notified (we also had Fire Phone here too). As time marched on "people" wanted to be more mobile, so portables were all the rage. Every fireman had a pager and most had a portable.

For a system built as a high power mobile to base configuration....obviously the infrastructure needs upgrading to accomadate a now-portable user base (this started in earnest about 20 years ago or so). So for the past 20 years it's been nothing but a complaint and reaction system. Meaning....there is some issue with system coverage or operation, and they complain which then gets a, usually uninformed and knee jerk, reaction.

The fire association is technically clueless, aside from the know-it-alls (who don't know it all). The commissioners don't want to be involved, they push it back onto the association for them to find a solution and bring it back to the commissioners to pay for.

So through a series of band aids, it is now a network (lol) of various repeaters all on the same output freq, but either on a different input freq, or same with another PL. Paging goes out here there and everywhere. People say they don't get the page, when in fact the coverage is ok, it's mostly that they don't get then them "listening" for "their tones" on a junk portable is not the same as their PAGER actually being tripped.

They were presented a preliminary plan to keep paging on VHF, but nix all the other junk for a UHF multi-site, multi-zone repeater network or a UHF Trunking system built to portable coverage specs. This system was both versatile and easy to use. When presented with the solution, they simply said "We have no money for that" (in the 90's.)

So many thousands of bandaid dollars later the system works worse than ever, and the radio shop reluctantly sells them base stations, telling them this is not the way to make it work better.....

The radio dealer has not pushed anything on them, as in part of the scenario above, but has tried to help them, and no one listens. They just go back to griping and arguing. Now this year they spent alot of money to narrowband everything, and just bought another $25,000 repeater to add to the mess. And yesterday I heard they wanted to form a committee (of all the same numb nuts) to look at a new solution or going on the state system.

Amazing.

Before much thought is put into even considering trying to jump on the Virginia state trunking system, don't you think it would be a wise move to try talking to the state first? This might not even be a possible solution. The state system was not originally designed to be able to support outside agencies not already with the state. This adds complexity and capacity to a system that was designed some 5 to 8 years ago. I would be surprised if it goes much further than the first phone call.

The county commissioners need to have a reality check before the first dime is spent on this project. An outside engineering firm needs to be brought in to try and make some sense out of this whole mess. There is no plan except to spend money. Just what do they hope to end up with. At least try to put a game plan down on paper and see if the pieces can come together. Just trying to pass the blame isn't going to solve anything. Going to a 700 MHz radio system would probably make matters worse without having the details of what is trying to be accomplished.

[StephenVa]

Originally Posted by atrich1

To jim202:

No we don't, I agree with you, there is no reason for us to move to a trunked system. We currently have a VHF system that could go to narrowband and continue to work. We do need some extra frequencies, we only have one repeated and one talk around for fire/rescue.

You need to get in the ear of your county's board. Otherwise you guys will end up paying out the rear for something you don't need because of a slick salesman. No idea what kind of infrastructure or footprint the communications has in Caroline, but I hear the fire and sheriff loud and clear in Orange.

[freqhopping]

I can hear Caroline Co (Sheriff, FD, Buses and PW) in central Loudoun. Nothing wrong with what they have other than not being narrowband compliant.

[quarterwave]

Jim202, I'm actually not in Va, I was just drawing comparison that this happens everywhere, and there are a lot of messes out there.

[ALF900]

Originally Posted by StephenVa

You need to get in the ear of your county's board. Otherwise you guys will end up paying out the rear for something you don't need because of a slick salesman. No idea what kind of infrastructure or footprint the communications has in Caroline, but I hear the fire and sheriff loud and clear in Orange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrich1
To jim202:

No we don't, I agree with you, there is no reason for us to move to a trunked system. We currently have a VHF system that could go to narrowband and continue to work. We do need some extra frequencies, we only have one repeated and one talk around for fire/rescue.

The county opting to buy any trunked radio system would be massive overkill and notch in snake oil selling radio rep. A county that has six volunteer fire companies with very minimal county staffing and on on-duty LEO compliment that can be counted one hand does not need a TRS. The most immeadiate need is for tac. channels for the SO and FD.

[fredva]

Here is an update to the story: Caroline wants more time to upgrade its communication system - The News Desk

Apparently they want to postpone any decision and try to get a waiver.

[jim202]

Originally Posted by fredva

Here is an update to the story: Caroline wants more time to upgrade its communication system - The News Desk

Apparently they want to postpone any decision and try to get a waiver.

It would come as a huge surprise if they were able to get any waiver from the FCC. The FCC license info shows that all their licenses were modified back in March of 2010 for narrow band operation.

This clearly shows the county was aware of the FCC mandates back then. Not sure what grounds they can dream up for any waiver now.