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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:29 PM
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Default Author Clears Things Up -- Hopefully ...

loumaag said:
"To the reporter, who is a participant in this thread, speak for yourself alone. Do not think that you speak for other members, much less the staff."

Prior to this post, I - the author of the Arlingtoncardinal.com article -- have not participated in this thread. I am a little curious, which post you incorrectly assumed was from the author. The Cardinal -- Arlingtoncardinal.com is based in Arlington Heights, Illinois.

In no way was the Arlingtoncardinal.com article intended to criticize feeds or feed providers. The article did point out that some feeds are official feeds from the sources (e.g., Santa Cruz Police Department). The main points of the article are that (1) multi-point communications (encrypted or unencrypted) are not as secure as one-to-one communications, and (2) radio users (and the people they are serving) are much less secure when they think they are secure (encrypted) and aren't using discretion while communicating, compared to an unencrypted system where radio users are using discretion while communicating.

W8RMH said:
"Another idiot blaming encryption on live feeds. Scanners, Encryption, Scrambling, and Criminals for that matter were around long, long before streaming ever existed."

In no way does the article blame encryption on live feeds. The article points out that different law enforcement agencies are responding differently to the feed technology -- some are afraid and some embrace it.

"Encryption is meant to secure the actual radio transmission from being received, not someone from overhearing your conversation. Every radio user, especially police officers, are responsible to ensure that any bystanders, and detainees in particular, do not overhear sensitive traffic, such as "your subject has a felony warrant". "

You're missing the point. Overhearing the police radio speakers is bound to happen -- whether the police are careful in turning down the volume or moving their position, or in the process. Furthermore, it is absurd to believe that a police officer is going to turn his or her radio volume down while he/she is in the middle of handcuffing a suspect, etc. What if they turn their volume down and forget to turn it back up, and miss a criminal history warning or fail to receive a new emergency call?

"Then they go on to explain how and why it can not be decoded. DUH."

The article is clear that Motorola says their technology is secure, but does anyone really believe that breaking the technology is absolutely impossible. The article questions whether the encryption will ever be decoded. The article doesn't explain how and why it can't be decoded, it explains how Motorola reports it can't be decoded.

"I guess they missed the part about how the radios can be disabled if lost or stolen."

From the article: "Therefore administrators would not be in a hurry to “brick” or disable the expensive radio." That sentence is clear that we didn't miss the part about how the radios can be disabled if lost or stolen. The point is police or fire administrators aren't going to be too happy about losing a $5,000 to $7,000 radio, and will probably hesitate before "bricking" the device. I will admit I am not aware if they can disable the radio function, without disabling the GPS tracking function. But even that task is not something that the every day dispatcher or administrator is going to be highly skilled to undertake quickly. Or at least not on every shift. We have also heard of attempts to communicate with the offenders possessing the stolen/lost radio to ask them to turn it in.

Last edited by CHGO235; 01-03-2013 at 2:15 PM..
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:35 PM
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You know what would fix all this .. Making streaming of public safety communications over the internet Illegal..Then the FCC enforcing the law. We are our own worst enemy...

I doubt it will happen though...

That is a very good article by the Arlington cardinal.. The writer has his facts and presents it in a non techincal way..

Last edited by FFPM571; 01-03-2013 at 12:44 PM..
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by StereoScout View Post
I'm sorry, but I was in a restaurant a couple years ago when some city officials over heard their police transmissions coming from someone's iPhone. They were appalled. Two years later the police transmissions are now encrypted because of it. I asked one of the them in a subsequent visit if this was the reason why they encrypted and they said yes.
You got that right, but $$ always have and always will talk
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by W8RMH View Post
Then why is it permitted. The government and RadioReference is just as guilty.
I don't think it should be banned; but you are missing the point that perceptions by those making the decisions to encrypt because of streaming become a self fullfilling outcome.

So if is just a hobby, it will eventually ruin it for anyone that does not have the $$ or technical knowledge to get around it, and also keep the race going to come up with more and better encryption schemes.

Like Sonny & Cher plaintively sang "The beat goes on"
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by balibago View Post
Where is the hacker who will post on an overseas website the source code for emulating Motorolas ADP?.
Well if that hacker exists, lets' hope he zips his lip
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Old 01-03-2013, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Thayne View Post
Well if that hacker exists, lets' hope he zips his lip
30 seconds of Google searching will lead you to a white paper detailing P25 security flaws, including methodologies to exploit them. It's not trivial, but it is doable. But those flaws won't always exist. The end result will be as it has been... Hobbyists will be locked out, advanced research will find and exploit flaws, and encryption methodologies will improve. Lather, rinse, repeat as desired.
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Last edited by zz0468; 01-03-2013 at 2:19 PM..
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 4:22 PM
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There's an old military saying that applies; for every measure there is a countermeasure, for every countermeasure there is a measure. 'Nuff said for yet another encryption thread what has been said time and time again in every other encryption thread. Time to get off before I get dizzy going round in circles.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 4:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHGO235 View Post
loumaag said:
"To the reporter, who is a participant in this thread, speak for yourself alone. Do not think that you speak for other members, much less the staff."

Prior to this post, I - the author of the Arlingtoncardinal.com article -- have not participated in this thread. I am a little curious, which post you incorrectly assumed was from the author. The Cardinal -- Arlingtoncardinal.com is based in Arlington Heights, Illinois.

In no way was the Arlingtoncardinal.com article intended to criticize feeds or feed providers. The article did point out that some feeds are official feeds from the sources (e.g., Santa Cruz Police Department). The main points of the article are that (1) multi-point communications (encrypted or unencrypted) are not as secure as one-to-one communications, and (2) radio users (and the people they are serving) are much less secure when they think they are secure (encrypted) and aren't using discretion while communicating, compared to an unencrypted system where radio users are using discretion while communicating.

W8RMH said:
"Another idiot blaming encryption on live feeds. Scanners, Encryption, Scrambling, and Criminals for that matter were around long, long before streaming ever existed."

In no way does the article blame encryption on live feeds. The article points out that different law enforcement agencies are responding differently to the feed technology -- some are afraid and some embrace it.

"Encryption is meant to secure the actual radio transmission from being received, not someone from overhearing your conversation. Every radio user, especially police officers, are responsible to ensure that any bystanders, and detainees in particular, do not overhear sensitive traffic, such as "your subject has a felony warrant". "

You're missing the point. Overhearing the police radio speakers is bound to happen -- whether the police are careful in turning down the volume or moving their position, or in the process. Furthermore, it is absurd to believe that a police officer is going to turn his or her radio volume down while he/she is in the middle of handcuffing a suspect, etc. What if they turn their volume down and forget to turn it back up, and miss a criminal history warning or fail to receive a new emergency call?

"Then they go on to explain how and why it can not be decoded. DUH."

The article is clear that Motorola says their technology is secure, but does anyone really believe that breaking the technology is absolutely impossible. The article questions whether the encryption will ever be decoded. The article doesn't explain how and why it can't be decoded, it explains how Motorola reports it can't be decoded.

"I guess they missed the part about how the radios can be disabled if lost or stolen."

From the article: "Therefore administrators would not be in a hurry to “brick” or disable the expensive radio." That sentence is clear that we didn't miss the part about how the radios can be disabled if lost or stolen. The point is police or fire administrators aren't going to be too happy about losing a $5,000 to $7,000 radio, and will probably hesitate before "bricking" the device. I will admit I am not aware if they can disable the radio function, without disabling the GPS tracking function. But even that task is not something that the every day dispatcher or administrator is going to be highly skilled to undertake quickly. Or at least not on every shift. We have also heard of attempts to communicate with the offenders possessing the stolen/lost radio to ask them to turn it in.
I have a habit of skimming through forums, and I might be way off here, but I understand it as "the reporter" to be the one who reported the thread, bringing the mod here to the thread to monitor it. ("speak for yourself alone. Do not think that you speak for other members, much less the staff.") sounds like part of the message between "forum reporter" and "moderator" Just sayin....
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 5:16 PM
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Time for the WAMBULANCE !
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 5:36 PM
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Stuff like this is why I took up bowling as a hobby again. The equipment is cheaper, much harder to break and I won't wake up one morning to find my bowling ball will no longer roll down the lane.

-AZ
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 5:37 PM
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Default Maybe this would work...

I noticed that the feed round here has at least a 45 second delay compared to my scanner. I am sure this is caused by the internet etc.

Maybe if the feed server could increase that to say 2 or 3 minutes this would mean that if anyone was using a cellphone to monitor police frequencies while committing a crime, the police could be at the door before the crooks know they are coming.
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 6:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZScanner View Post
Stuff like this is why I took up bowling as a hobby again. The equipment is cheaper, much harder to break and I won't wake up one morning to find my bowling ball will no longer roll down the lane.

-AZ
True but you could go to the bowling alley one day only to find upon your arrival, that it has been torn down to make way for a new walmart.

Then what? Golf? Hobbies are never safe.
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by awattam View Post
Maybe if the feed server could increase that to say 2 or 3 minutes this would mean that if anyone was using a cellphone to monitor police frequencies while committing a crime, the police could be at the door before the crooks know they are coming.
Sure, it's not like this idea hasn't already been proposed since the beginning of live feeds and the ownership hasn't already said that they will not support feed delays for any reason (including if the feed owner were to voluntarily do it themselves).
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 8:49 PM
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I think the best way to go about encryption is the way my county does it. All fire/EMS traffic and law enforcement dispatch and OPS talkgroups are open.

However, all law enforcement TAC talkgroups, investigators, narcotics, etc are encrypted. Personally I think this is the best of both worlds, as the public gets to listen to what's going on, yet law enforcement has several encrypted talkgroups to fall back on if they need to communicate privately. It's often you hear officers telling other officers to "switch over" if they have something private they need to discern.


Encrypting everything is a bad idea as it completely cuts you off from mutual aid comms.
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsncrso View Post
Encrypting everything is a bad idea as it completely cuts you off from mutual aid comms.
That's a myth. If the system is setup correctly you can still have interoperability.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2013, 11:22 PM
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That's a myth. If the system is setup correctly you can still have interoperability.
Not in areas where separately managed and maintained systems exist. For example, in Atlanta metro we have a dozen different systems, some encrypted fully, some partially, and some none at all. All of them are owned by different jurisdictions and controlled independently. Some of them use different technology (analog Smartnet, Astro 25, Harris IP25, EDACS ProVoice and OpenSky all exist in the metro area, along with VHF/UHF conventional, MotoTRBO, Nexedge and even iDEN).

The ones that are fully encrypted do not allow outside agencies' radios on any of their dispatch talkgroups- only on a handful of mutual aid clear talkgroups and I-TAC's. Problem with this is many working incidents don't take place on those talkgroups, and dispatchers forget to patch/mutli-select them into the clear ones, and since those talkgroups go unmonitored most of the time, mutual aid users can't raise the encrypted agency when entering their jurisdiction during a pursuit. Instead, it reverts to a "radio, can you call xxxx and tell them we need help at..."

This full encryption of dispatch talkgroups on those systems also prevents adjacent agencies from using a scanner (or radio) from monitoring those dispatches of hot calls and getting a heads up on what may be coming their way. I know many pro active officers who run their beats this way, and they are usually the first to know about the armed robbery that just occurred one county over and are giving the description and DOT to their dispatcher before the other agency has a chance to pick up their phone and call or send a message on the state data network.

So running a walled garden is just that: locks everyone out- even the good guys trying to help.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2013, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Not in areas where separately managed and maintained systems exist. For example, in Atlanta metro we have a dozen different systems, some encrypted fully, some partially, and some none at all. All of them are owned by different jurisdictions and controlled independently. Some of them use different technology (analog Smartnet, Astro 25, Harris IP25, EDACS ProVoice and OpenSky all exist in the metro area, along with VHF/UHF conventional, MotoTRBO, Nexedge and even iDEN).

The ones that are fully encrypted do not allow outside agencies' radios on any of their dispatch talkgroups- only on a handful of mutual aid clear talkgroups and I-TAC's. Problem with this is many working incidents don't take place on those talkgroups, and dispatchers forget to patch/mutli-select them into the clear ones, and since those talkgroups go unmonitored most of the time, mutual aid users can't raise the encrypted agency when entering their jurisdiction during a pursuit. Instead, it reverts to a "radio, can you call xxxx and tell them we need help at..."

This full encryption of dispatch talkgroups on those systems also prevents adjacent agencies from using a scanner (or radio) from monitoring those dispatches of hot calls and getting a heads up on what may be coming their way. I know many pro active officers who run their beats this way, and they are usually the first to know about the armed robbery that just occurred one county over and are giving the description and DOT to their dispatcher before the other agency has a chance to pick up their phone and call or send a message on the state data network.

So running a walled garden is just that: locks everyone out- even the good guys trying to help.
That's more of a if you don't like it ill take my ball and home home approach. There needs to be some leeway if you truly want to have interoperability.
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2013, 12:56 AM
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That's more of a if you don't like it ill take my ball and home home approach. There needs to be some leeway if you truly want to have interoperability.
Easier said than done. The phrase that pays is "herding cats".
Separate government entities don't always play nice, and this is the real barrier to interoperability. Doesn't matter how much we spend on fancy radios, if you don't want to talk to me- clear voice analog or AES-256- than there is nothing I can do.

Doesn't change the fact that your choice of encryption gets in the way of my officers' ability to listen out and be pro-active in my county. Our officers would rather be able to talk to and listen to yours without all the politics B.S- and they get just as annoyed at scanner hobbyists when a nearby agency goes dark.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2013, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
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The idiot is the one who refuses to acknowledge the practice is accelerating the trend toward encrypting.
This. To all the feed providers - thanks for killing the hobby.


Quote:
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I can remember how they said their MDT's were secure, then a program and a simple decoder on the internet caused such a stir that eventually it was the demise of the author. He is dead now, and I believe as a direct result of Motorola sending the feds after him on bogus charges
The feds gave Bill Cheek brain cancer?
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2013, 9:38 AM
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Ok, I'm closing this.
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