City of Johns Creek, GA Out of Radio Deal, says process is "flawed"

[RobertsRadio]

The City Council in the City of Johns Creek, Georgia gave a resounding "NO" on Monday to any notion of joining the cities of Sandy Springs, Roswell, Alpharetta and Milton in their plans to build a new $16 million emergency radio system separate from the Fulton County Radio System. For more see the link below.

http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Oli...&view=ZW50aXR5

[rapidcharger]

That's what happens when politicians can't be bought.

John's Creek is home to Kenwood USA corp and you'd think that they'd at least put the RFP out to bid.

[MTS2000des]

I will once again applaud city manager Kachmar, and the city council in Johns Creek for having the fortitude to call a bluff on what I have been saying is a flawed process. They are doing what is in the true best interest of their public safety, their citizens and the community by DEMANDING an open, fair and honest RFP be put out.

The statements by Kachmar about the consulting firm (COMMDEX) and their ties to Motorola Solutions further demonstrate why the entire process of how these systems are consulted on and procured in this state is flawed. The ability to bypass the open bid process and go with state contract vendors and pricing means the best and most economical system never sees the light of day.

The city of Johns Creek is one place where the city government has it's citizens' and employees best interests at heart.

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Originally Posted by MTS2000des

The city of Johns Creek is one place where the city government has it's citizens' and employees best interests at heart.

Well there are tradeoffs. I mean, they aren't blowing millions unnecessarily on a radio system but on the other hand, they run off everyone who tries to open a lingerie shop in that town.

[RedCorvetteGuy]

I am sure there is a standard (P25)? for equipment purchased off of the state contract. Since there is a state contract, bids have been let and awards made to several contractors who meet the requirements. Is Kenwood a state contractor who meets the specifications of the state syste. If the specs call for P25 for example, cities can purchase whatever brand they want from the contract. If this is not correct, please advise. The city of John's Creek will spend much more money starting from scratch by hiring consultants and engineering firms on their own. The Federal Government purchases everything from show polish to radio systems off of the GSA contract. Volume equals a discount. If Johns Creek publishes an RFP for a small system, don't be surprised if prices are higher than on the ststa system. Make sense?

[rapidcharger]

Johns Creek is about 4 miles by 4 miles in size and I'm sure the city could procure a small system that more than meets their needs for a lot less. But this really wasn't about what's cheaper. It's about using due diligence and making sure the city was getting the best deal through a fair and competitive bidding process. Not just rushing into it because some corrupt politician from another nearby town claims the current radio system is going to fail.

[RedCorvetteGuy]

Would their own stand alone system have interoperability with the state and other closeby communities which should be one of the most important features? People on this forum never fail to say "corrupt politcian". Maybe the shoe is on the other foot. I understand that Kenwood has an office in the 4 by 4 mile square town of Johns Creek. Does Kenwood have a state contract and do they meet the requirements of the system? A town only 4 x 4 miles doesn't need much of a radio system unless they need or want to talk to others during an emergency.

[MTS2000des]

Originally Posted by RedCorvetteGuy

Would their own stand alone system have interoperability with the state and other closeby communities which should be one of the most important features? People on this forum never fail to say "corrupt politcian". Maybe the shoe is on the other foot. I understand that Kenwood has an office in the 4 by 4 mile square town of Johns Creek. Does Kenwood have a state contract and do they meet the requirements of the system? A town only 4 x 4 miles doesn't need much of a radio system unless they need or want to talk to others during an emergency.

Wrong, Kenwood's HQ is not in Johns Creek- which is in Fulton county. Kenwood HQ is located in Suwanee in unincorporated Gwinnett county, with a Suwanee, GA mailing address:

3970 Johns Creek Ct, Suwanee, GA 30024 - Google Maps

The open bid process assures that every vendor who has a compatible product can compete. FWIW Kenwood doesn't offer a 700/800MHz P25 phase I FNE, only subscriber radios, so they wouldn't even be in the running. But EF Johnson, Harris and Cassidian all do- and have time and time again shown they can offer a lower price than Motorola on the very same products.

Richardson, TX is a great example of this. Prehaps you should read that case study for how competitive bidding can be a WIN for cities of this size and population. Ironically, Cassidian was able to supply higher end subscriber radios (in this case, Motorola APX radios) for LESS than Motorola themselves wanted for older XTS2500's, not to mention the FNE was substantially less. But this is what happens when you just say NO to good old boy ways of doing business and say YES to offering the job to the most qualified vendor with the best price through a true RFP process and competitive bid:


Cassidian Communications and the City of Richardson Celebrate an Industry Milestone

[RedCorvetteGuy]

Kenwood isn't even a player as a system supplier. Do EF Johnson, Harris and Cassidian have a stste contract? If so then the bidding process has taken place. Richardson Tx is only one sale and we don't know the details of the purchase. I believe the article I read from your paper stated that Kenwood's HQ was in Johns Creek. And we know that reporters never make a mistake. And you didn't answer my questions from my previous post.

[procopper7005]

Originally Posted by MTS2000des

Wrong, Kenwood's HQ is not in Johns Creek- which is in Fulton county. Kenwood HQ is located in Suwanee in unincorporated Gwinnett county, with a Suwanee, GA mailing address:

3970 Johns Creek Ct, Suwanee, GA 30024 - Google Maps

The open bid process assures that every vendor who has a compatible product can compete. FWIW Kenwood doesn't offer a 700/800MHz P25 phase I FNE, only subscriber radios, so they wouldn't even be in the running. But EF Johnson, Harris and Cassidian all do- and have time and time again shown they can offer a lower price than Motorola on the very same products.

Richardson, TX is a great example of this. Prehaps you should read that case study for how competitive bidding can be a WIN for cities of this size and population. Ironically, Cassidian was able to supply higher end subscriber radios (in this case, Motorola APX radios) for LESS than Motorola themselves wanted for older XTS2500's, not to mention the FNE was substantially less. But this is what happens when you just say NO to good old boy ways of doing business and say YES to offering the job to the most qualified vendor with the best price through a true RFP process and competitive bid:


Cassidian Communications and the City of Richardson Celebrate an Industry Milestone

The Suwanee building is Kenwood's communication division only, and is in unincorporated Forsyth County, not Gwinnett.

Their corporate headquarters for all divisions is in Long Beach, CA.

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Technically kenwood is outside of johns creek... Just barely... And I'm betting that was their idea probably to save taxes! It's not in gwinnett, it's in forsyth. Zip codes bleed across county lines here in GA unlike in other states I've lived so assuming it was in gwinnett which has the bulk of the 30024 zip code is understandable. But still, it's for all intents and purposes a local company to john's creek. Kenwood doesn't seem to go after these big infrastructure deals. They seem to care less. I'm not terribly surprised if only one vendor came knocking on the door but they really need to shop around. Theres plenty of neutral expert advice and case histories to look at to see what other similarly sized cities have done and what they have paid.

Originally Posted by RedCorvetteGuy

Would their own stand alone system have interoperability with the state and other closeby communities which should be one of the most important features? People on this forum never fail to say "corrupt politcian". Maybe the shoe is on the other foot. I understand that Kenwood has an office in the 4 by 4 mile square town of Johns Creek. Does Kenwood have a state contract and do they meet the requirements of the system? A town only 4 x 4 miles doesn't need much of a radio system unless they need or want to talk to others during an emergency.

True but any hopes or dreams of interoperability were killed a long time ago. The area has a lot of different small counties and each wants to do its own thing. Interoperability was really kind of a scam anyway as I see it. That's a whole 'nother discussion. Analog conventional VHF is what is still used for interoperability. They never needed to spend tens of millions to have that.

[MTS2000des]

Originally Posted by RedCorvetteGuy

Kenwood isn't even a player as a system supplier. Do EF Johnson, Harris and Cassidian have a stste contract? If so then the bidding process has taken place. Richardson Tx is only one sale and we don't know the details of the purchase. I believe the article I read from your paper stated that Kenwood's HQ was in Johns Creek. And we know that reporters never make a mistake. And you didn't answer my questions from my previous post.

They don't, and there is the problem. We have other vendors, who can supply "like, kind and quality" and are shut out due to this flawed process.

Harris has, one more than one occasion, had an RFP in hand, but were never considered in many a P25 phase I upgrades, including Rockdale county, and could have saved those taxpayers millions. Yet because of this good buddy Georgia way of doing business, they never even got a chance.

Fulton county, to their credit, has put their project to upgrade their 22 year old Smartnet II 800MHz system, which all of the north county cities currently use, out for bid. At least they are doing it right and not getting sucked into this money trap that is state contract pricing. It's obvious to me (and others) that the north county cities (Johns Creek excluded) have open checkbooks and will pay whatever their vendor of choice asks- dictated by their "consulting" firm who has direct ties to the same vendor.

Yeah, nothing to see here...moving right along.

[MTS2000des]

Originally Posted by RedCorvetteGuy

Would their own stand alone system have interoperability with the state and other closeby communities which should be one of the most important features? People on this forum never fail to say "corrupt politcian". Maybe the shoe is on the other foot. I understand that Kenwood has an office in the 4 by 4 mile square town of Johns Creek. Does Kenwood have a state contract and do they meet the requirements of the system? A town only 4 x 4 miles doesn't need much of a radio system unless they need or want to talk to others during an emergency.

Interoperability? You mean like the 12 disparate proprietary non-interconnected trunking systems we've already been sold? Oh yeah, I've got an even better idea, let's throw MORE MONEY at it by using Federal UASI money to build out an overlay that NO ONE USES because:

A)-it lacks usable portable coverage and channel capacity
B)-it costs TOO MUCH to have radios on the system at $350 per ID
C)-it costs close to $1 million a year to keep on the air, so no one uses it

Meanwhile, in the real world- no matter what whiz-bangery is carried from a duty belt, if agency A is told not to interact with agency B, it doesn't matter what radios are purchased or how much is wasted on it. Proof of this attitude running rampant is in the mere fact that the north county cities, sans Johns Creek, *REFUSE* to work with Fulton county to join their new system and go in on it.

So how well has this 20 year train ride of throwing close to $300 million dollars at a certain vendor been working out for us (collectively)? I remember in 1990 when we all had 16 channel programmable VHF/UHF radios and we had more "interoperability" than we do in 2013.

We also weren't furloughing firefighters and cutting services to our citizens to pay for these expensive, short life cycle walled garden trunked radio systems either.

[RedCorvetteGuy]

The more is said, the more it seems that in Georga you have enities that don't get along. I think it's more of a political problem than a radio problem. Several states that I know of, have good working state wide trunking systems. Illinois, Missouri (being installed), Colorado, Kansas are a few. Does the State of Georga even have a state wide radio plan?

[rapidcharger]

I guess now that we "went there", I'll just point out that the biggest and most frequently coordinated inter-agency or multi-unit operations that comes to my mind is Cal Fire and hospitals & EMS. And what are they using? Analog conventional.

If interoperability is so important, how come the people that really and truly actually use it the most haven't done anything different?

[RedCorvetteGuy]

I do not know who Cal Fire, Hospitals, and EMS is. Sounds like a network of EMS and hospital services. A trunked state system is designed to accomadate police (state, county, city) fire, EMS Highway dept, Game warden, schools, etc. All of these departments can operate day to day on their talk groups. In an emergency, they can talk to who ever they need to talk to on scene. Trunking is the best way to do this. I grew up with VHF and UHR conventional analog radio systems in a day when the frequency spread was just a few MHz. Yes there were mutial aid frequencies for fire. Police were a different matter.

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Originally Posted by RedCorvetteGuy

I do not know who Cal Fire, Hospitals, and EMS is. Sounds like a network of EMS and hospital services. A trunked state system is designed to accomadate police (state, county, city) fire, EMS Highway dept, Game warden, schools, etc. All of these departments can operate day to day on their talk groups. In an emergency, they can talk to who ever they need to talk to on scene. Trunking is the best way to do this. I grew up with VHF and UHR conventional analog radio systems in a day when the frequency spread was just a few MHz. Yes there were mutial aid frequencies for fire. Police were a different matter.

That's great but like California, Georgia's kinda broke.
I know that didn't stop neighboring broke states from implementing statewide systems but I guess he decision makers in georgia didn't see the need to have 700/800 mhz portable coverage over most of state which is sparsely populated wilderness or agricultural. Needs were being met. Although it would be neat if they could, game wardens don't need to talk to school bus drivers.
A lot of new small cities are popping up in urban areas. (like John's Creek) A statewide system would offer them the best cost benefit (in theory). However they're a small part of the state. And besides, many of them think they can do it better, even if it costs more. They might expect a state run system to go into disrepair or not offer the capacity they need. (Strangely, it is those small bedroom communities that seem to use the system the most)

You asked if we have entities that don't get along... Not only do we have neighboring counties that can't agree on a plan, we even have agencies within the same county that don't even want one another to listen to each other's traffic. There is a particular county who has a sheriff that went encrypted specifically to keep the fire department out of their business. They won't even authorize the FD to have a radio.

[b7spectra]

At one time, State of Georgia (aka Good Ol Boy Network), played with the idea of using SouthernLinc (Southern Companies Power) digital system for the State Patrol, but didn't work out. In Georgia, there are way too much politics and friends and family to have to contend with. Sad for the citizens of the state, but 100% true.

For many years, I have been an advocate for state wide communications, but along with that, you can also LOSE lots of jobs. i.e. State Patrol communications could be consolidated to a single post instead of 30-40 different ones. Another reason would be LOSS of control of the communications by individual jurisdictions. Everything would be controlled by the State (but on a monetary view, it would probably save these jurisdictions a lot of $$$ by not having to pay for the salaries, maintenance of system and other upgrades).

Once a state wide system is put into effect, THEN and ONLY THEN will you have the famed INTEROPERABILITY that everyone wants to have!

[MTS2000des]

In 1995, back in the Zig Zag Zell days, the state was pining to build out a "statewide 800MHz" system, and actually bought the first parts of it, known as the DOAS 800 system, and installed sites in Atlanta, Athens and Forsyth (Monroe county).

When the real total bill of what it would actually cost to build out an 800MHz analog Smartzone network were realized, it was somewhere close to $250 million on the low end, which was about 1/4 of the entire state budget, nevermind the yearly cost to run it. Then they switched horses and decided to become subscribers on the Southern Linc iDEN network, which SoCo had built out- yeah, we all know Zell had ties to the Southern Company- nothing questionable about that.

After 5 years of putting up with poor performance, and paying huge user fees- they dumped the idea. Then the UASI kick got started and some though this would be a building block for a new metro wide than statewide 700/800 DTRS. It never happened when the REAL PRICE of what these systems actually cost comes into reality. Hundreds of millions of dollars that the state just doesn't have- without raising taxes.

and no one likes that. Meanwhile, the various populated and resource rich counties have been pouring money into these trunked systems with the hopes that our mighty state will someday kick in. and that just isn't going to happen.