Multi Band Radio Pilot Report

[rdale]

Originally Posted by jim202

If your at a multi agency incident, why do you need to have radio system coverage from your home system? Your at the incident to support the incident. Normally the coverage area is only a couple of city blocks in size. Maybe a mile in some cases. This can be done very easily on a simplex channel operation.

Absolutely... All radios should have their band's CALL/TAC channels in them. My county uses UHF EDACS, but dispatch can patch in any VHF, UHF, or 800 MHZ CALL/TAC channel to the system and/or let them talk simplex on scene.

[ResQguy]

No, you shouldn't worry about coverage from your home system when operating somewhere else. But suggesting that when (for instance) a mutual aid fire engine responds into "the big city" that everyone on the fireground should switch to simplex, even though the host jurisdiction has a well performing wide area network that is built into their business process isn't a great idea either. If the mutual aid responder doesn't have access to the host network, they should be relegated to tasks outside the IDLH as the incident commander shouldn't and likely can't monitor the original operations channel AND now 8TAC91 or whatever. When I visit departments around the country, I always ask to see a portable radio and look at the fleetmap. Shame on those agencies that don't have interop channels in 2013.

[jeatock]

$50,000 grant for ten $5,000 'rocket powered radios' so ten local fire and police chiefs can talk to each other at a multi-discipline incident? That fits all of the criteria. No problem.

$50,000 grant for two hundred $250 plain vanilla 16-channel basic analog radios, spare batteries, programmed with all of the interoperability channels, that can be at a multi-discipline incident in an hour or less and handed to everyone that needs one? Are you out of your mind???

Before your flame me:

Most radio vendors would jump at the chance to sell you 200 down-and-dirty vanilla radios with spare batteries for $50,000, and throw in two tactical repeaters, programming cables and software.

"You killed/lost a radio? Oopsie. Here's another."

"I can't scan seventeen channels on this stupid radio, or talk to everyone." That's right, because you don't need to. Want vs. need. There's an old saying that every white helmet (supervisor) comes with a radio for each hand; one dedicated UP channel to his Boss, one dedicated DOWN channel to his staff. Everything else is a distraction. A Strike Team Leader doesn't need to talk to Logistics/Support. He needs to talk UP the ICS tree to Ops, who can talk SIDEWAYS to Logistics who can talk DOWN to Support. Setting that up is what COML's do.

"That won't work." COML-101: Establish functional networks, maintaining comm discipline and span of control. Put Command and general staff on VTAC33 with a tactical repeater because Ops moves all over and the IC won't stay at the Command Post. Put Chief of Operations and Ops Leaders on VTAC34 with a tactical repeater. Operational teams on any of your state's interoperable simplex fireground tactical channels, or whatever common simplex channel they have in the radios they brought with them. Most single purpose resources will arrive pre-equipped (possibly with their own 'rocket powered' radios) and only their leader needs to talk UP to his boss. Put Law Enforcement on VLAW31/32. Logistics on local Simplex channel 1. Need more channels? Borrow them from a local agency or the Fed pool, or find any working external system that works for a particular operating group.

Pre-established bridges and gateways still working? Great! Turn them on.

The above is for VHF as that is my local standard. There is no price difference between VHF and UHF. If your area is predominantly UHF, go that way with your cached equipment and appropriate interop channels.

There is a misconception that NIMS/ICS requires that everyone can instantly talk to everyone all the time. That's great if you have the funds, and a plan that everyone has trained on and can remember. Local & Regional Law/Fire/EMS need a day to day interoperational plan that everyone is familiar with and uses, implemented in the most economical manner possible. Everything else is gravy and seldom used. Reality: fifteen minutes after a train wreck a state police car calls a county dump truck. "Who is this? Bubba, you joking with me again?" will likely be the reply.

"This is huge and takes too long to set up!" Welcome to reality. The first op period is going to be chaos. Have a major incident first-hour plan that lets you do what you can do, train on it, remember to use it, then transition to an organized bigger plan as the pieces show up and come on-line. Major resources take time to mobilize and arrive. If your pre-plan is realistic the comm equipment will be ready and waiting after the first hour.


The DHS report starts with a 2004 study showing a dismal lack of interoperability. The report doesn't show if things have improved. Opinion: After almost ten years of throwing money at the problem, it hasn't significantly improved outside major metro areas. Special Operations resources are different, but most troops are comfortable with their day-to-day plan and have a hard time changing to a major incident system. Giving most responders 'rocket powered radios' just in case without a plan that everyone trains on and knows how to use is a waste. The same end result can be acheived in more economical ways.

[zerg901]

I think the key is standardization. AFAIK fire hose in the USA is 99% standardized from coast to coast. Hose from NYC will work in LA.

I was told approx 20 years ago that all of the fire departments in West Germany used a total of 14 channels. 4 channels at 170 Mhz for portable radios. 10 repeater channels at 70 Mhz for truck to dispatcher comms. The same 10 channels in each and every fire mobile radio. The same 4 channels in each and every portable fire radio. I could see this working in the USA. 10 repeater channels at 453 Mhz plus 4 portable freqs at 453 Mhz. Might not sell as many expensive radios, but the system would probably work excellently - nationwide - in every nook and hollow - coast to coast.

[rdale]

Not really. Connectors are not standard.

[zerg901]

Another very important aspect is SOPs. Have you ever wondered how FDNY can operate with only 4 or 5 channels? How can Chicago FD operate with just 2 fire dispatch channels? How can LAFD operate with just 3 dispatch channels? How does Wash DC FD operate with just 1 fire dispatch channel? At a typical fire in these citys, the chief does not have to tell everyone what to do via the radio. They are already doing it - per SOPs.

[rdale]

Valid - but I'm not sure you can compare those departments with Jonestown Township...

[ResQguy]

Originally Posted by jeatock

The DHS report starts with a 2004 study showing a dismal lack of interoperability. The report doesn't show if things have improved. Opinion: After almost ten years of throwing money at the problem, it hasn't significantly improved outside major metro areas. Special Operations resources are different, but most troops are comfortable with their day-to-day plan and have a hard time changing to a major incident system. Giving most responders 'rocket powered radios' just in case without a plan that everyone trains on and knows how to use is a waste. The same end result can be acheived in more economical ways.

Had they included a link to the National Emergency Communications Plan (NECP) Goals in the report, maybe it would have read better: National Emergency Communications Plan (NECP) Goals | Homeland Security

[902]

Another thing to factor in: If you have poor "operability," you have absolutely NO business worrying about "interoperability" until you get your internal house in order. It doesn't make any difference that you can communicate with someone hundreds of miles away. How well does the system work within your jurisdiction - especially where your calls are?

I've been to some national level meetings with individuals who make incredible claims. Incredible, not that I don't believe they can be done, but incredible in that they challenge need. For example, the IC can run the incident from the gate at Hartsfield-Jackson. Yeah, maybe, but my contention is he or she is out of position and needs to stand down. Likewise, the overwhelming influx of data that's going to happen with streaming video coming in from more or less everything. I'm afraid we've put the technology cart before the human capabilities/agency operations horse... unless it's the intention to remove all discretionary capability from the field and command (read: micromanage) from afar.

On the 8CALL/8TAC channels, here's another klinker: is the radio programmed for simplex or repeater operation? The 800 MHz rules DO NOT allow for simplex operation (your agency's license application for a simplex channel on 800 will be returned by the FCC). The 800 rules, however, DO allow for "talkaround" operation IF you have a repeater licensed. So, some knot heads in regional planning committees decided to promulgate in their plans, that if you use these frequencies, it has to be through a repeater. Now we're back to being infrastructure limited. Not to mention that if you have multiple repeaters on 800 with overlapping coverage, and if there is no setup and knockdown capabilities (that costs money in most cases), you get an unusable mishmosh of heterodyne.

We can be our own worst enemies.

Oh, hose threads are worse than radios! At least you can program most radios back to analog for "interoperability." Look at this: http://www.jeromefire.com/threads%20chart.pdf Red Head Brass says there are over 2,200 different thread types!

[jeatock]

902: All very true and valid points; operability before interoperability, over thinking and over applying technology because you can, silly rulemaking, and micromanagement from afar.

I've been in non-metro fire service quite a while. Today, 30% of our calls require a page, enroute message, initial on-scene sizeup meaasge, replace the battery in the CO sensor/smoke alarm or look for anything bad with the four-gas or thermal imager, returning to base and in-service messages. Pretty basic stuff.

Another 20%: Page, enroute, initial on scene. Run the brush truck through the pasture. Deck gun the right-of-way before the fire jumps the road. If it is big, face to face the Tender Driver to tell him to make another water run. If you are lucky the brush truck driver is listening to the radio. Tidy up, call in and go home.

30%: Page, enroute, initial on scene. Open the car and stabilize the victim for EMS. Tidy up, call in and go home. All tactical communication is face to face.

15%: Page, enroute, Initial on scene. Pull hose, establish supply, set up safety/accountability, put the wet stuff on the red stuff, rehab, overhaul. Tidy up, call in and go home. Outside command and safety must have 100% reliable tactical communication with interior.

Most of those situations require much (if any) tactical communications. And you would be amazed how many agencies limit their on-scene sizeup report over the dispatch channel to a useless "We're here", leaving their mutual aid partners in the dark.

Properly done, when on scene, Department A gives dispatch (and mutual aid partners) an accurate on scene report, then uses statewide standard tactical channels for fireground operations. A very simple channel template works dandy. Anyone coming to play has the same chanels. Department B does things "Their way" and moves tactical to Grand Dad's proprietary 'private' channel and expects their mutual aid partners to follow suit. Now you have to add special single purpose channels, "because you can."

Department C requires life and safety critical, tactical communications be performed on (shudder) a digital trunked talkgroup so the Eventide Recorder at dispatch can keep the voice transmissions for future liability defense. Never mind that the purpose of the exercise it to send a mayday or evacuation order 300 feet, not rebroadcast everything over three counties. Never mind that the call for help from a basement is 'bonked' by the trunking system. Going outside the normal area to provide mutual aid is chaos. "We have the technology..."

None of the above really require much technology, and certainly no streaming video back to the Dispatch Center.

The other 5% (if my math is right) are the "Oh S--t Moments", where yes, there may be an application for fancy stuff. But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

There is a commercial showing a firefighter in full gear at a folding table in front of a burning building, operating multiple monitors showing live video from interior crews. A White Helmet hovers nearby, monitoring the interior. Neat Stuff! Reality check: How long did it take to set that fancy video up, how much extra taxpayer funds did it cost, what additional manpower did it consume, and just how useful is a helmet cam feed to an experienced IC? Even if that works perfectly 99 times out of 100 runs, Mr. Murphy will make sure that one run it might have been really useful is when it fails. No news is good news, so the dependency on technology kets someone injured. Somewhere along the line, the decision of firefighter safety vs loss of a building has to be made. There are some battles that can't be won without putting staff at severe risk. If the Interior Leader says it is time fo get out, or the fire is just in a trash can, no IC outside should second guess him. If the IC outside is worth his position, the heat, smoke and feel of the fire tells him when to evacuate. That is where training and SOP are invaluable. None of that translates well to a distant remote micro-manager.

Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

[zerg901]

Fire Hose Couplings & Threads "NH is by far the most common hose thread". The hose sizes are typically 1.5 1.75 2.5 3 4 5. I would be willing to bet that there is no FD on the planet that uses 4.25 inch hose. Nor 4.75 inch hose. Nor 5.25 inch hose. Nor 2.25 inch hose. Nor 2.3 inch hose. Fuel is either gas or diesel. Drivers sit on the left. Sirens make standard noises. Flashing red white blue lights are by far the most common. Salaries are paid in dollars. FM Radios are either FM or they are not. There is no such thing as 3/4 FM or 1.34 FM. Standardization is everywhere. (If someone wants to claim that .001% deviance renders standardization a failure ......).

Until someone in DC comes out with a mandate for all public safety agencies to move to one band, there will be no real interoperability. It is just reality. If all agencies operate in one band, there there can be nationwide interops. If just one agency is NOT playing along, then there cannot be nationwide ops. Its just simple definitions and reality. Anyone can claim that they are implementing interops, but the reality may be totally different.

It is a engineering question. What is the most economical way to provide radios that will work everywhere for everybody? Step 1 - standardize. Everything else is folly.

[jeatock]

Originally Posted by zerg901

Until someone in DC comes out with a mandate for all public safety agencies to move to one band, there will be no real interoperability.

Wonderful plan.

If everyone has to be on the same system, county highway dump trucks and city snow plows need the same band $2~$4,000 trunking radio as the State Troopers, Sheriff, fire and EMS. Then remember that portable radios must work everywhere: EMS from the kitchen of Grandma's house located five miles over the river and through the woods, and Fire/Rescue from the hollow where the NS rail line crosses 485th Street. Because of trees and terrain I have difficulty covering my scenic rural home county with a seven site VHF system. Moving to an natiownide 7/800 system that serves our 20,000 residents with same or better coverage will either require more towers than the norm, or intelligent vehicular repeaters (translate as expensive) in close to a hundred vehicles. The 5,500 population county to my south is even worse. I have propagation engineering to back that up in detail.

Now, the budgetary numbers:
A metro area typically spends between $20 and $60 million for a 7/800 MHz trunking system. This includes mobiles, portables and infrastructure. Say we can get a deal, and can extend that same level of 7/800 service over an entire 20,000 population country for a mere $10 million. That's only $500 per resident/taxpayer. Illinois has about 85 rural counties and would require $850 million to give firefighters, deputies, police officers, EMS responders and public works personnel statewide the same corner to corner reasonably reliable coverage that the metro areas have.

Because government programs are so efficient, let's round price that to an even billion per state. The average is probably valid. Flat Kansas? Piece of cake. Mountainous West Virginia? Tough one. Also, refer to the multiple studies (Pennsylvania, New York State, et al) where 7/800 digital trunking failures due to lack of signal have put state police officers at fatal risk. You don't need complete coverage? Flight 93 didn't crash in the radio garden spot of Pennsylvania. Have your diabetic great-aunt move to town, pass legislation prohibiting Farmer Brown from rolling his tractor into the creek, and prevent teenagers from smoking in the barn. Remember, we are getting one size fits all universal coverage.

You can take the math from there, but just in case you've missed the news lately, we're broke. $50 billion isn't going to fall out of the sky, especially when we are parking aircraft carriers.

This completely ignores the fact that the sovereign states are under limited obligation to ask how high when the Feds say to spend state/local funds and jump. Or that a reality of radio engineering is that one band doesn't fit all.

The reality is common sense, practical planning by politically and vendor neutral folks, engineering and street wise who know what they're doing, universal implementation of hundreds of regional plans, leveraging what is already available, and training (and re-training) the troops how to use it. That's called a TICP and they are already in the works.

[zerg901]

jeatock - just to clarify - i didnt say anythin about 700 or trunking. I said "same band". And even "same band" doesnt really solve the issue. Solving the issue probably requires that someone near the top really understands that there is an issue. Someone near the top really needs to believe that interops is important. It seems that 9/11 really didnt get the message across to anybody.

[jeatock]

Originally Posted by zerg901

jeatock - just to clarify - i didnt say anythin about 700 or trunking. I said "same band". And even "same band" doesnt really solve the issue. Solving the issue probably requires that someone near the top really understands that there is an issue. Someone near the top really needs to believe that interops is important. It seems that 9/11 really didnt get the message across to anybody.

We've been preaching that for years; sometimes things move, sometimes they go off on a political tangent. The TICP program is going to be a tremendous help in planning and training. But for a wholesale move the bucks ain’t there.

Unfortunately, same band is going to be 7/800 digital trunking because of the heavy investment that the metro areas already have in that technology. Illinois has StarcomŪ as the statewide system now, already integrated into Chicago, Springfield, Bloomington, East St. Louis and other metro areas. Missouri's P-25 trunked MOSWIN is headed the same direction, although rural MOSWIN sites are VHF and metro sites are both VHF and 7/800. Here at home I can gateway a StarcomŪ talkgroup to several local analog VHF channels in less than two hours.

Although the issues are many, with enough infrastructure 7/800 isn't an inherently bad system. While it is great for buildings and urban use, it is expensive and doesn’t like hills, mountains and trees without a huge investment in infrastructure. The 7/800 ISP trooper radios are helpless in many areas around here without their in-car repeaters. I have a 20 watt StarcomŪ 7/800 mobile with a magnetic antenna on a filing cabinet in my office right now. It only hooks to a site if I open the door and stand on my left foot. My $300 5 watt VHF works 95% county wide, but sucks when I go to the city.

One day we are supposed to have universal nationwide public safety broadband, but it won't help us here in the rural areas until 100,000 new sites are put up. Facebook and Twitter posts have different reliability requirements than a deputy dodging gunshots behind his car.