RadioReference on Facebook   RadioReference on Twitter   RadioReference Blog
 

Go Back   The RadioReference.com Forums > Announcements and News > Community Announcements and News

Community Announcements and News Announcements and News of interest to the RadioReference.com Community. All new threads posted here will be moderated by the administrators. Members are encouraged to post news and information here for the community.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #361 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 8:50 AM
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,385
Default

I see HT200 boy doesn't read very well on top of other obvious social problems.

In one single post I mentioned that encryption could fix a problem of handling sensitive patient information over radio and in that same post I asked for solutions other than encryption. Several people (your comments don't count) point out there is no legal need for protecting patient information over radio so there ya go, the thread is done in my opinion.

I never said amateur radio should be the primary backup plan for hospitals, where did you dream that up?

What I do say is you are degrading and demeaning the amateur radio community including myself with your posts about ARES and other volunteer groups are all whackers, which I have never encountered in my many years of donating time to these groups.
prcguy


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Funny, the only person I see making personal attacks is you, so maybe I should referring to you as PRICguy.

PRICguy doesn't seem to get that amateur radio is, and should be, one of many resources available for hospitals and public safety. It should NEVER be a primary disaster plan in any public safety agency. A "go-to" should be a backup redundant system on a more appropriate medium.

PRICguy should spend a little more time actually reading my posts instead of being a PRIC and he'd realize I don't admonish ham radio, PRICguy apparently missed that part about my being an active ham in my community for close to 3 decades, and active in community service.

But unlike what I have seen from the local ARES clowns, I know my place. I don't have flashing lights on my car, I don't push my way in, I don't oversell amateur radio as some kind of "emergency radio" solution like a Motorola salesman, and I don't believe in using ham radio in place of other more appropriate radio service. I don't believe in changing the rules in such a way to allow for something that has been forbidden for a very valid reason, and certainly not for the outlandish reasons as put forth in the matter before the commission.

PRICguy, I have designed radio systems for public safety. In my previous employment, I worked as a communications director for a large Metro Atlanta ambulance company. I also know the needs of public safety and hospitals quite well. One thing we don't need are untrained, non-certified persons in the way of our scenes handling "third party traffic." Others have asked, just what specific traffic that needs to be passed requires encryption over ham radio and of course the answer are a pile of vague him-haw's that are easily debunked faster than any clip from Myth Busters. In the systems I maintained, we had redundancy using local municipal TRS alternate tallgroups, our primary operations were on LTR UHF trunking, if those failed, protocol was to switch to a local community repeater, if that was unavailable we would default to med 1-8. If those were down, that's why every rig had an 800 mobile programmed on the local TRS, and then I-TAC/8-TACs if those were offline. No one was asked to use ham radio (despite several people in the company including it's owner) having ham licenses. Why? Because it isn't the place for it. At no time would I ever envision some ham "communicator" riding in one of our trucks to pass third party traffic over ham radio because 1)-that's so not practical, 2)-not needed given the levels of redundancy, 3)- having non-employees on a truck is a liability. And we never passed anything sensitive over our primary or secondary radio systems. PCR's were transmitted over data cards. If those were down, they were saved to disk and handed off at shift change. So tell me where HAM RADIO would fit into that picture?

It is clear that those people like PRICguy and others who are convinced that amateur radio NEEDS to allow for encryption or ELSE we will be doomed and the FCC will sell off our spectrum to AT&T and Verizon because we aren't our playing Randy Rescue with it passing patient stats over the radio with names and medical record numbers are just plain delusional.

They want it so they can play. I wouldn't be so against that IF that were the main reason, but the reasons they spout are absurd and most logical thinking adults know and comprehend the slippery slope that allowing blanket use of encryption, especially for voice- can do to this service.

I am glad that in PRICguy's little part of the world, ham radio is welcomed with open arms by these desperate hospitals and public safety entities because they must to too broke or under the spell of some delusional ham who has them sold that ham radio is the "prepper" radio service. Guess someone's spent too much time watching episodes of "Extreme Preppers" on NatGeo.

In many circles, and sadly in my county, mentioning HAM RADIO to public safety agencies is met with eyerolls and sighs. You can thank those fools who don't know their place for that.

Ham radio has it's place, but not to the extent of modifying the radio service so much to fit the needs of the agencies served by the very radio amateur volunteers using it. If it cannot be done within the already liberal and flexible rules we have, than it needs to be done elsewhere. The assertion that ham radio is "mission critical" or "operations critical" is laughable. Nothing more than those weirdos with a light fetish who want to use it as a vehicle to hold themselves out to be something they are not so they can be where they have no business being.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #362 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 9:11 AM
MTS2000des's Avatar
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Cobb County, GA PCT 3 Crime Central
Posts: 1,895
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by prcguy View Post
I see HT200 boy doesn't read very well on top of other obvious social problems.

In one single post I mentioned that encryption could fix a problem of handling sensitive patient information over radio and in that same post I asked for solutions other than encryption. Several people (your comments don't count) point out there is no legal need for protecting patient information over radio so there ya go, the thread is done in my opinion.

I never said amateur radio should be the primary backup plan for hospitals, where did you dream that up?

What I do say is you are degrading and demeaning the amateur radio community including myself with your posts about ARES and other volunteer groups are all whackers, which I have never encountered in my many years of donating time to these groups.
prcguy
And PRICguy lives up to his screen name. (note that some of us don't hide behind screen names, we post our real call signs, some of those who aren't whackers or whacker affiliates even use their real call sign as screen names)

Then what is your point?

Offended that I and others have merely pointed out that amateur radio has no place in public safety and hams should stay in the shack and not meddle in places they don't need be? Funny how you say I am the one degrading the amateur community by merely accounting for my and others' personal dealings with these ARES wanna-be types, yet you ignore the plethora of posts from others including nice detailed photos of great "when all else fails" radio installations pointing out and reinforcing my point that some people should STEER CLEAR of doing ANYTHING remotely connected to a hospital, EOC or 911 center.

I wouldn't even let one of these people install a single channel VHF radio into a public works truck let alone handle anything sensitive or doing anything of importance.

You seem to be offended personally. Do you have unauthorized emergency lighting on your vehicle? Do you have a "bustmobile" full of radios? Do you show up at emergency calls when not dispatched by an official public safety agency? Do you show up at hospitals making unannounced visits to hospital staff making absurd demands acting like a know it all?

If you ARE NOT one of these people then I don't see why you are so personally offended.

I am not the one degrading the amateur radio community with my comments. You can blame the whackers for that- they work overtime, and the ARRL, with their "when all else fails" dribble. You can blame the morons who waste the FCC's time with absurdities like the current NPRM wanting encryption on the ham bands.They are the ones with mental problems based on their erratic behavior of showing up on scenes, acting like fools at hospitals and outside EOC's, there are your children- go tend to them before they break something else will ya?

Shoot the messengers, but whatever you do, don't read the message, then attack the messenger. Typical.
__________________
All opinions, statements, posts, or information made public are those exclusively of the author, and not those of his employer, contractors or associates.

Last edited by MTS2000des; 07-05-2013 at 9:15 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #363 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:11 AM
loumaag's Avatar
Moderator
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 13,138
Default Civility

Folks,

This issue is an important one for amateur radio and as such has attracted a lot of attention and is generating a lot of emotion. The problem is that emotional response often leads to attacking comments. Stop the bickering, stop responding emotionally. No matter which side you are on in this issue, unless you can present your position in an unemotional and civil manner, please, keep it to yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #364 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 11:04 AM
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Northwest Georgia USA
Posts: 81
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimru View Post
This thread is going in circles now, it seems...
Probably has been for a while actually, but that is probably to be expected with the subject matter at hand. There are really, when it is all broken down, only two sides to the discussion 1) you are for encryption on amateur radio bands for emergency purposes (the only use the proposal really addresses), or 2) you are not. The rest of the conversation revolves around reasons why and why not. Some have taken this to direct attacks on posters although most of us on this thread have not. Some have pointed out that their are, for lack of another word, "whackers", or maybe "those who way over do it" or even "those who play pretend with real life issues" would be better terms, which is, sadly, a phenomenon in many different areas of life not just amateur radio nor public safety. Some have taken this assertion personally, and others have not even though I personally believe that these were not personal attacks on people (and the ones who have made personal attacks against some of us have done so very openly). Some of us who work/have worked in public safety have seen our share of those who overdo and, for all extents and purposes, get in the way, and we have also seen those who really do offer to help, do all they can to help, and, if told there is nothing they can do right now, understand and stay out of the way. This is regardless of whether or not they are amateur radio operators. I happen to know of one jurisidiction that had to tell a volunteer firefighter to either respond only to the calls his station was specifically dispatched on or he was going to be kicked out of the department. This guy was always showing up on any scene he might be close to (fire related or not), turning on his red light, and asserting his control (not offering help but asserting his control). Pointing this out does not mean I am saying all volunteer firefighters are that way, nor does pointing out the "in the way hams" mean that someone is saying all hams are that way. Once you get passed all of this, however, then the discussion really has no place to go. So, it does become a circular discussion at that point. It is what it is I guess. :-) With that said, I think I have added all I can to the discussion (some might say that is not a lot and that is fine), so unless something new is brought up I will monitor but probably not respond after this. Thanks to all of those on all sides who have provided their views, and done so without resulting to outright attacks on other poster (which again is the vast majority of those who have posted).

Christian KF4ZMB
Reply With Quote
  #365 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 11:17 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In the 'patch
Posts: 2,114
Default FCC Opens Rulemaking to Allow Encryption in Amateur Radio Service

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Offended that I and others have merely pointed out that amateur radio has no place in public safety and hams should stay in the shack and not meddle in places they don't need be?
I'm truly sorry that you have has such a bad experience with ARES. Our local group DOES NOT 'self deploy' we wait for the call from AEMA to staff the radio room. We also work very very hard to keep 'wackers'' and other hams that do not posses the personality, or maturity out of AEMA's POC (Provincial Operations Centre) we take our image and relationship with AEMA VERY seriously. We also know that we fall under Logistics, NOT Operations in the ICS world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Funny how you say I am the one degrading the amateur community by merely accounting for my and others' personal dealings with these ARES wanna-be types, yet you ignore the plethora of posts from others including nice detailed photos of great "when all else fails" radio installations pointing out and reinforcing my point that some people should STEER CLEAR of doing ANYTHING remotely connected to a hospital, EOC or 911 center.
The local ARES group where I live has an EXCELLENT relationship with AEMA(Alberta Emergency Management Agency) as well a lot of other local groups have EXCELLENT relationships with local Emergency Management operators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
I wouldn't even let one of these people install a single channel VHF radio into a public works truck let alone handle anything sensitive or doing anything of importance.
There are people, even radio shops, that I would not let near ANY vehicle to install a lightbulb never mind any radio equipment

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Do you have unauthorized emergency lighting on your vehicle?
NO, I have an amber LED beacon in my truck for work and it only gets used for work. Also it is magnet mounted and does not stay on my truck when not in use

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Do you have a "bustmobile" full of radios?
Nope. I have my M800 mounted phone for work, a TM-V71a only for amateur use, and a TK-760HG for my LMR channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Do you show up at emergency calls when not dispatched by an official public safety agency?
Nope. I stay clear and let the pros do there work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Do you show up at hospitals making unannounced visits to hospital staff making absurd demands acting like a know it all?
Nope, I have no need to tell the pros how to do their job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
If you ARE NOT one of these people then I don't see why you are so personally offended.
I am not offended. I realize you have been embarrassed by some wacker types and have decided to paint ALL amateur operators with the same brush, when nothing can be further from the truth. While there are those 'groups' that feel they need to wear 'wacker uniforms' to feel important, our local ARES groups 'dress code' is clean golf/T-shirt and full length pants, be showered and wear deodorant.

Due to shortage of people, we had at least one person at the POC that will NEVER be allowed to come back because of inappropriate remarks made on air, and further, was bumped out of any further shifts because of it. We actively evaluate our people's performance to ensure we do not damage our relationship with AEMA.

We know and understand that we are there to be an absolute last resort. We are also actively engaging AEMA to ensure that we are brought in early enough to be able to deploy resources BEFOR everything fails, not after when the big panic sets in after comms do fail. And YES comms WILL fail. It is inevitable. To believe otherwise is ignorant, and does every one a huge dis-service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
I am not the one degrading the amateur radio community with my comments.
Actually you are degrading the amateur radio community with your comments that amateur radio has no place in EM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
You can blame the whackers for that- they work overtime, and the ARRL, with their "when all else fails" dribble. You can blame the morons who waste the FCC's time with absurdities like the current NPRM wanting encryption on the ham bands.
I do not disagree with this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
They are the ones with mental problems based on their erratic behavior of showing up on scenes, acting like fools at hospitals and outside EOC's...

Amateur operators that act like that need to be told to "Fox Oscar and stay Fox Oscar'ed." They also need to be told to never show up again, and if they do, they will be arrested for being a public nuisance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
there are your children- go tend to them before they break something else will ya?
They are NOT my children and I will never tolerate that behaviour by any of the local members where I live.



In June, High River Hospital was sheltered in place, while the water rose and surrounded them. AHS(Alberta Health Services, a provincial ministry, that governs, and administers ALL emergency health care in Alberta) lost all forms of communication(cellular, fibre, copper) with the hospital. While AHS and AEMA debated how to air lift a SATPhone to the hospital, AEMA asked how long ARES would take to deploy an operator. We told them less than an hour, and were directed to deploy. This operator archived that goal and, until the hospital was evac'd, DID pass critical/operational traffic, on behalf of AHS, from the POC to the hospital. While you say you build redundant communication systems, to sit there and claim that there will never be a complete and total failure is absurd.

Because of our ability to link AHS to their assets, over distances of 400-600Km (NOT on HF) to areas with out connectivity, with little lead time, we have demonstrated that even with other systems still in place, that we can get traffic through, and have a place at the their Emergency Management table.

To keep on target, nothing we transmitted over air, would currently be, passed over encrypted P/S LMR.






Sent from an unknown place...
__________________
Interoperatablity is not a technology it is an attitude!!!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #366 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 11:21 AM
Heterodyne's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Alberta
Posts: 293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
And PRICguy lives up to his screen name. (note that some of us don't hide behind screen names, we post our real call signs, some of those who aren't whackers or whacker affiliates even use their real call sign as screen names)

Then what is your point?

Offended that I and others have merely pointed out that amateur radio has no place in public safety and hams should stay in the shack and not meddle in places they don't need be? Funny how you say I am the one degrading the amateur community by merely accounting for my and others' personal dealings with these ARES wanna-be types, yet you ignore the plethora of posts from others including nice detailed photos of great "when all else fails" radio installations pointing out and reinforcing my point that some people should STEER CLEAR of doing ANYTHING remotely connected to a hospital, EOC or 911 center.

I wouldn't even let one of these people install a single channel VHF radio into a public works truck let alone handle anything sensitive or doing anything of importance.

You seem to be offended personally. Do you have unauthorized emergency lighting on your vehicle? Do you have a "bustmobile" full of radios? Do you show up at emergency calls when not dispatched by an official public safety agency? Do you show up at hospitals making unannounced visits to hospital staff making absurd demands acting like a know it all?

If you ARE NOT one of these people then I don't see why you are so personally offended.

I am not the one degrading the amateur radio community with my comments. You can blame the whackers for that- they work overtime, and the ARRL, with their "when all else fails" dribble. You can blame the morons who waste the FCC's time with absurdities like the current NPRM wanting encryption on the ham bands.They are the ones with mental problems based on their erratic behavior of showing up on scenes, acting like fools at hospitals and outside EOC's, there are your children- go tend to them before they break something else will ya?

Shoot the messengers, but whatever you do, don't read the message, then attack the messenger. Typical.
This.
__________________
[Insert huge list of radios here, posted only to inflate my sense of self-worth and brag to my fellow members about what a cool guy I am]
Reply With Quote
  #367 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 11:40 AM
PJH's Avatar
PJH PJH is offline
Multistate DB Admin
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,564
Default

It still amazes me that some who are commenting here are not taking the time to read some of the real thought out posts making a case for or against (mostly against). Those "for" are coming up with "if/when/maybe this will happen/etc" however they are not presenting any facts or figures to back their statements.

K4VST has made some very great points against the FCC filing, I have not seen the same "for". If someone can present a real debatable argument on why it is truly needed, pointing out failures in a XYZ situation that has occured and where such use of ENC would have been benefical to hams within their role given to them by the EOC, police, fire, EMA (thowing out the hospital part since we know that is BS), I'd like to hear it.

(Sized for some of the nonsense arguements here)
Attached Images
 
__________________
If you have received a PM from me about a submission, kindly reply within 5 days with requested information or your submission may be rejected. Thanks!

Last edited by PJH; 07-05-2013 at 11:46 AM.. Reason: Dumbass was tired when written and needed some English skills to make it readable
Reply With Quote
  #368 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:11 PM
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 502
Exclamation Keep on topic, stop the bashing

It seems to me, this thread is going all over the place. The topic is FCC Opens Rule-making to Allow Encryption in Amateur Radio Service or the pros and cons of using this mode on the amateur bands. But I fear this is now turning into a major form of Amateur Radio or HAM bashing by the professional communications elitist - experts versus the Amateur Radio (Ham) operator their equipment and / or their affiliate organizations ARRL, ARES, RACES and SKYWARN.
To some of the professional communications elitists (gods) the amateur radio operators are just a bunch of glorified CB’ers, Hayseeds and A**H**E hicks compared to us “gods” who "seem" to know everything. “We don’t need no stinking “amateurs” for any type of emergency communications and encryption because they are all…yadayada
Yes,some of the photos are indeed but shamefully funny of various mobile and equipment set ups. True, there are “jerks” and “gung ho” people out there who are only seeking attention with their setups. Attention being positive or negative it’s still a form of attention for them. (I have seen this on both sides)
However, please do not paint the entire Amateur radio community with such a broad negative brush stroke.
The whole idea is emergency communications that will save lives 1st . The key here is for ALL to learn, train, integrate and practice the best concepts from both the Amateur and the Professional communications camps.
In ICS they call it unified command for all the agencies involved, why not unified communications, for concepts and principals for both Professional and Amateur?


So those persons who want to continue the bashing of professional versus amateur,
enough already, please start a new topic, preferably, I suggest in the “Rant” section of forums and return this thread to its original topic.

Thank you.


Reply With Quote
  #369 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:27 PM
PJH's Avatar
PJH PJH is offline
Multistate DB Admin
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,564
Default

Actually, you are quite wrong IMO.

I am sure some of that is directed at me and to MTS2000des.

We are both active HAMs (though we have never met and do disagree on some subjects). Both of us, and Mark have large roles in public safety, and some of us with major stakeholders on many levels.

HOWEVER, we (can't speak for Mark) have had our share of "hams" who feel as though because they use radios - are quailified major players in the "emergency communications" relm.

When you have indivduals or organized ham groups walk into your building or email you that they have all sorts of great resources to offer, yet will not take an ICS class - do not show up for active drills, want to run their ham club nets from an active 911 center, state to 3rd parties that "we are the 911 backup for such and such agency(s)".... we kind of take issue to that.

If it was just a person here or there, I can take that. When just about everyone who wants to be an "EmComm" ham to be affiated with my various stakeholders presents themselves above to the fire, police and EMS chief's...thats not an isolated incident. I would go as far to state that they want to be "weekend warriors." All play, no training.

Again, there are some really good groups out there that have the snizzy together and DO a good non-self deployed, works within EMA and routinely trains alongside first reponders. In fact, in the county I reside in has a workable group just like that. EMA bought them a professional van, they are included in the county incident command vehicle, trains regularly and is a top notch operation.

HOWEVER, about 99% of the ham clubs do not fit this mold. When hams with "ham badges" stop walking into my office demanding a place in life safety critial communcations,,,that doesn't work. Those who walk in with a well thought out proposal on paper and can articuate what value they have in our operations, I'd be happy to see if we find a logistical spot for them.

Until then, it wouldn't be one of my posts if I didn't include a related picture:
Attached Images
 
__________________
If you have received a PM from me about a submission, kindly reply within 5 days with requested information or your submission may be rejected. Thanks!

Last edited by PJH; 07-05-2013 at 12:36 PM.. Reason: Need a new set of batteries for the wireless keyboard
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
        
  #370 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:44 PM
Completely Banned for the Greater Good
   
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 69
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris45 View Post
Thank you for your compliment honoring me as a PRIME example of why encryption in the amateur bands is misunderstood. But in doing so, you short-changed the others on this thread that have also identified the pitfalls and adversities of encryption on the amateur airways.

You say that Hams would not be hindered in any way if the encryption could be turned off or on by just ONE individual during an actual emergency, otherwise encryption would not be 24/7 like in the public safety realm. Amateur radio is about “ALL” licensed members of this –dare I say hobby. But I do agree with you that encryption is a tool belonging in the public safety realm.

You particularly asked me what would the police do if their own radio system is down and there was no other alternative but HAMS. To be sure, amateur radio has been and will continue to support public safety agencies in emergencies, as needed. As needed means the public safety agencies will determine how. Public safety agencies have contingency plans and systems in place that have proven adequate in such situations. In such situations the use amateur radio equipment would be open, clear, and not encrypted. Public safety agencies understand this and are not requiring Hams to encrypt their communications. If there was a dire reason that open and clear communications could not be used, then the public safety agencies have the responsibility and not the amateur radio community.

Presuming that you are a licensed amateur radio operator, what don’t you understand? If you and others wish to provide and over-the-air encrypted radio service during emergencies, then have at it. But do not hassle the rest of the amateur radio community because you are the one that just doesn’t get it.
Chris, You can't tell me what to do and what not to do. You and the very few here don't run what the FCC does on this encryption issue. The FCC doesn't see a problem with it so neither should you
Reply With Quote
  #371 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:52 PM
Completely Banned for the Greater Good
   
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 69
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJH View Post
It still amazes me that some who are commenting here are not taking the time to read some of the real thought out posts making a case for or against (mostly against). Those "for" are coming up with "if/when/maybe this will happen/etc" however they are not presenting any facts or figures to back their statements.

K4VST has made some very great points against the FCC filing, I have not seen the same "for". If someone can present a real debatable argument on why it is truly needed, pointing out failures in a XYZ situation that has occured and where such use of ENC would have been benefical to hams within their role given to them by the EOC, police, fire, EMA (thowing out the hospital part since we know that is BS), I'd like to hear it.

(Sized for some of the nonsense arguements here)
I hate to say it, but none of the against posts make any dang sense at all. If the FCC opens a rulemaking proposal, then they see no problem with it.

the Hippa concern is a not an issue. Amateur Encryption would not be a 24/7 thing and that is something that some of you still don't get. some of you have brought ARES into it with some good damn arguments but here's the thing. ARES works with the govt during crisis times, that makes your arguments null and void in regards to encryption.

I am going to say this because i saw 3 good posts about it: REALITY is that there is no radio system in the whole public safety realm that won't have problems or go down. The fact is that even some BACKUP systems have failed too!

This thread needs to be closed as none of you seem to get anything each other is saying.
Reply With Quote
  #372 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:55 PM
PJH's Avatar
PJH PJH is offline
Multistate DB Admin
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,564
Default

Incorrect. The FCC has not changed any of the current rules. This is just one of the many processes that entertain individuals, trade groups, manufactures to see if they can get something changed.

No action has been taken.

Encyption on the ham bands are still illegal.
__________________
If you have received a PM from me about a submission, kindly reply within 5 days with requested information or your submission may be rejected. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #373 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:58 PM
PJH's Avatar
PJH PJH is offline
Multistate DB Admin
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,564
Default

From:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FCC
The Rulemaking Process
Each time Congress enacts a law affecting telecommunications, the FCC develops rules to implement the law. The Commission takes various steps to develop these rules. Typically, these steps offer consumers an opportunity to submit both comments and reply comments to the FCC.



Are There Special Terms I Need to Know?


Yes. Knowing your "ABCs," or specifically, one’s NOIs, NPRMs, and R&Os is key to understanding the Commission’s decision-making process. Exactly what do these letters mean? Below is a guide to understanding the "alphabets" of the FCC.

Notice of Inquiry (NOI): The Commission releases an NOI for the purpose of gathering information about a broad subject or as a means of generating ideas on a specific issue. NOIs are initiated either by the Commission or an outside request.


Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM): After reviewing comments from the public, the FCC may issue a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. An NPRM contains proposed changes to the Commission’s rules and seeks public comment on these proposals.


Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (FNPRM): After reviewing your comments and the comments of others to the NPRM, the FCC may also choose to issue an FNPRM regarding specific issues raised in comments. The FNPRM provides an opportunity for you to comment further on a related or specific proposal.


Report and Order (R&O): After considering comments to a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (or Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking), the FCC issues a Report and Order. The R&O may develop new rules, amend existing rules or make a decision not to do so. Summaries of the R&O are published in the Federal Register. The Federal Register summary will tell you when a rule change will become effective.





Changes After the R&O


Petition for Reconsideration: If you are not satisfied with the way an issue is resolved in the R&O, you can file a Petition for Reconsideration within 30 days from the date the R&O appears in the Federal Register.

Memorandum Opinion and Order (MO&O): In response to the Petition for Reconsideration, the FCC may issue a Memorandum Opinion and Order (MO&O) or an Order on Reconsideration amending the new rules or stating that the rules will not be changed.




Do I Need a Lawyer to File Comments?


No. When the Commission proposes new rules, a period of time is established for the public to comment on the proposed rules. Anyone can file comments. You don’t need to be an attorney or to hire one. Each of the Commission’s documents containing proposed rules clearly details the specific dates, deadlines and locations for filing comments and reply comments.

Comments are just that. In your comments, you tell us what you think about the subject topic and why you support or oppose the Commission’s proposals.

After initial comments are filed, there is an additional period for responding to the first set of comments. During this second phase, you can file reply comments. In your reply comments you can review what others have said in their initial comments, and then support or disagree.




Does My Docketed/Rulemaking Filing Need to Include Specific Information?


Yes. Visit the Office of the Secretary website for instructions.

Docket Number
Rulemaking proceedings at the Commission are assigned docket numbers. Each docket number lists a Bureau, a year and a specific number assigned to that proceeding (e.g., MM #99-001= 1999 Mass Media Proceeding Number 1). If you are submitting a document that pertains to a docketed proceeding, you must put the docket number on your filing.

Notations
If your document contains information you wish withheld from public inspection, you must write "Confidential, Not for Public Inspection" on the upper right hand corner of each page. The documents should then be placed in an envelope also marked "Confidential, Not for Public Inspection."

You can also file documents with the FCC for all docketed and rulemaking proceedings through our Electronic Comment Filing System (ECFS), with the exception of Hearing Cases and Table of Allotments. However, you must first obtain the instructions for doing so by sending an e-mail to ecfs@fcc.gov with the following words noted in the body of the message: "get form <jsmith@domain.com>." ECFS accepts documents 24 hours a day with a midnight filing deadline. The official receipt for electronic filings will reflect Monday through Friday dates, except legal holidays.
__________________
If you have received a PM from me about a submission, kindly reply within 5 days with requested information or your submission may be rejected. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #374 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 1:12 PM
loumaag's Avatar
Moderator
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 13,138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmahoney View Post
...The FCC doesn't see a problem with it so neither should you
That has yet to be established.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmahoney View Post
I hate to say it, but none of the against posts make any dang sense at all. If the FCC opens a rulemaking proposal, then they see no problem with it.
This is a complete falsehood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmahoney View Post
the Hippa concern is a not an issue.
Correct, as there is no HIPPA involvement when it comes to non-covered entities. And since ham radio operators, ARES, Red Cross, etc. are not covered entities and indeed the method of passing patient data via radio is not done by an HHS adopted standard there is no need to bring HIPPA into this discussion at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmahoney View Post
Amateur Encryption would not be a 24/7 thing and that is something that some of you still don't get. some of you have brought ARES into it with some good damn arguments but here's the thing. ARES works with the govt during crisis times, that makes your arguments null and void in regards to encryption.
None of this makes any sense, there is no requirement that anything the government is going to ask amateur radio operators to do that requires encryption, indeed, there is no requirement for the government to use encryption at all so your entire argument fails. Government agencies may choose to encrypt some of their communications for one reason or another, but that is a choice and is optional, just like it would be a choice to pass unencrypted messages via another means, like ham radio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmahoney View Post
I am going to say this because i saw 3 good posts about it: REALITY is that there is no radio system in the whole public safety realm that won't have problems or go down. The fact is that even some BACKUP systems have failed too!
And, so does ham radio, or have you never actually been in a real emergency situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmahoney View Post
This thread needs to be closed as none of you seem to get anything each other is saying.
This is also not an option that you have. This topic is open and will remain so as long as the discussion does not denigrate back to name calling and if folks could actually quit putting forth unsubstantiated arguments and stick to the facts the discussion could continue to provide good information. When the discussion wains, it will naturally die off.
Reply With Quote
  #375 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 1:14 PM
loumaag's Avatar
Moderator
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 13,138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJH View Post
...
Encyption on the ham bands are still illegal.
^^^ This!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #376 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 1:15 PM
PJH's Avatar
PJH PJH is offline
Multistate DB Admin
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,564
Default

I think LouMagg just LouMagged someone
__________________
If you have received a PM from me about a submission, kindly reply within 5 days with requested information or your submission may be rejected. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #377 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 1:16 PM
PJH's Avatar
PJH PJH is offline
Multistate DB Admin
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,564
Default

And that's with two g's instead of two A's
__________________
If you have received a PM from me about a submission, kindly reply within 5 days with requested information or your submission may be rejected. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #378 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 3:48 PM
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6
Default Encryption is a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8OHU View Post
I imagine there was such traffic when the tornadoes ripped through Oklahoma, and in areas affected by Hurricane Sand last fall (I actually have had correspondence with one of the ARES Emergency Coordinators that was in Connecticut at the time of Sandy), so there are two recent examples; no encrypted communication were used that I know of in either, mainly because such capabilities weren't available to the hams providing the emergency communications there. As for why encryption would be needed, if the stated reasons that I've seen aren't good enough for you, I don't know what would be, though the last part of your post gives a good clue, but not in the same manner as you're thinking.
I would be very interested in what the actual "emergency" communications were. Nets passing numbers in shelters, radio checks, etc are not emergency communications. Reports identifying new, updates or current conditions of emergency conditions such as people traped, lost, missing, track of tornadeos and expected track, etc sure. Medical emergencies located at shelters could be considerd if no EMS personnal are on location or as to the basic info i.e. adult female with breathing problems. Maybe age but not much more than that need be sent via radio to a net control. Any additional could be considered a violation of federal HIPPA laws since the net control is not a medical control and has no need for that info. If long term records are kept maybe a local log, but must be secured, could be maintained and if a hospital is in the loop in the net could be sent via cell or landline phone, not radio unless emergency medical care is required and they are needed for immediate assistance in patient care, otherwise once again a violation in HIPPA laws. With all that being said why would encryption be needed. We do not use encryption when contacting hospitals from ambulances. Using any form of encryption would also pose a problem with identification requirements. If no one can hear your ID then you have not identified as required. There are many issues against the use of crypto on the HAM bands. If you feel it is needed then use frequencies it may be used on. How about P25 narrow band, in the MURS channels and have encryption. Many say what if... Most professional communications systems have a redundant back up system and many have those individual repeaters in the trunking system built into radios for use in just that situation, if all systems were to fail. Just having a ham radio net will not satisfy any system if their system fails, only a single small temp solution. When all other forms of communications fail we have a much larger issue than encryption, so I ask why? I see it as a bad idea. Well I hope my tid bit can be understood, I write as I think. Either way im sure there are people who will try and change my thoughts in this. Encryption is a bad idea, encoding maybe ok, but why? There should be no reason to pass personal info of people via ham radio. If need to then maybe use an info encoding system.

Do not confuse me being against the use of crypto as me being against any ECOM Group.
Reply With Quote
  #379 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 4:09 PM
Completely Banned for the Greater Good
   
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 69
Default

Again encryption on the ham bands is a good idea, if they can do it then so can we.

Sent from my SCH-R530M using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Reply With Quote
  #380 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2013, 5:23 PM
PJH's Avatar
PJH PJH is offline
Multistate DB Admin
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,564
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmahoney View Post
Again encryption on the ham bands is a good idea, if they can do it then so can we.

Sent from my SCH-R530M using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Again, you don't give us talking points on exactly why. The stuff you have brought up has already been covered and unnesseary/repetitive, etc.

Right now your just trolling.
__________________
If you have received a PM from me about a submission, kindly reply within 5 days with requested information or your submission may be rejected. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 9:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All information here is Copyright 2012 by RadioReference.com LLC and Lindsay C. Blanton III.Ad Management by RedTyger
Copyright 2011 by RadioReference.com LLC Privacy Policy  |  Terms and Conditions