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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2014, 6:42 AM
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Grants.
You can't sustain a department off grants. Most of the big ideas I've seen come from the various post-9/11 grants are rusting in a parking lot with weeds growing around them because the recipients were either unwilling or incapable of maintaining the asset. Maybe worse, they incorporate the equipment (somewhat inappropriately) into their daily operations and can't afford the housing/maintenance/upkeep/staffing to keep it going without coming back to the table for sustainment funds.
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Old 05-13-2014, 6:44 AM
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Imposter responding to 911 call raises questions about safeguarding radio system
Quote:
Originally Posted by car55
If you are running a police department of 1,000 officers and that say only 500 radios than that 1 radio making it 501 is not program for the system. Why does it have access? I read all kinds posts that dispatchers can tell what radios that ID is for or disable the radio.

If you are unit 1 adam 12 to control than 1 adam 12 should show up on the dispatch console.

With sites like RR publishing all the info needed to program a radio, there is very little stopping someone motivated, from accessing a given network.


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The FCC database is open to the public.. Anyone wishing to find a frequency, can..

Once again folks, STOP blaming any and everything BUT the perp..
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2014, 6:55 AM
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You can thank your lowly radio company salesperson for you not being able to afford radios. They set the grossly inflated prices and quote you for an inadaquate system so you have to spend more. Just look at the PA OpenSky debacle. You can also thank politicians who know nothing about radio communications for making piss-poor decisions and falling for the radio vendor's propaganda.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2014, 7:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RodStrong View Post
Grants.
Grants only pay so much for what you need though. We just bought Moto radios for our P25 system. It paid for maybe half? The rest all came out of the dept.


Our whole county uses a current analog system and alot of people have their own radios. Some shouldn't though. On our new system they wont be able to have their own.

I do have to ask though.

"Someone with a two-way radio responded to the Wayne County Communication Center dispatcher almost immediately. "Waymart 1," the male voice said. It was an imposter.

For more than an hour, the 78-year-old woman waited for assistance."


Waited more than an hour? Really? Did the actual crew respond? If not, why? I would hope they have a way to check. Like if all else fails go check if the ambulance is there. Does the county not check on the units? If you have some odd response time, they will check up. These are honest questions
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2014, 7:57 AM
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Default Imposter responding to 911 call raises questions about safeguarding radio system

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Originally Posted by 902 View Post
Except for one thing: personal inhibition. It's this inhibition that keeps most people from performing criminal acts or doing things they will later regret, even though they are capable. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.



We seem to have moved away from life's little lessons these days. For every action there is a consequence. It's Newton's third law, and it applies in a sociological sense, too. This is not a matter of convenient access to equipment, it's people not being taught the difference between right and wrong - and expecting something to happen to them when they cross a line.



For the closing statement in the article, technology still won't stop spoofing if someone were deranged enough to do so.

While I agree that personal inhibition is a huge factor, sites like RR remove the 'barrier to entry' in that regardless of ones intentions, RR makes it much easier to drop a bootleg radio onto a given system, regardless of system type.

I got into amateur radio in 1993, at that time there was no real listing for frequencies. Our local police were conventional analogue. It took weeks of scanning with 2 radios to figure out the input of the local repeater, now even knowing this frequency, I still never did TX on it. I simply wanted to listen to the units to see if I could hear them. It helped me to learn how simplex VHF propagated. Now, the input is simple to find. Our local police have their frequencies protected by IC and are not listed in spectrum direct, and it is because of this that I believe RR lowers the "barrier to entry"

I am not bashing RR in any way only stating an opinion.


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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2014, 10:19 AM
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Default Imposter responding to 911 call raises questions about safeguarding radio system

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Originally Posted by 902 View Post
Except for one thing: personal inhibition. It's this inhibition that keeps most people from performing criminal acts or doing things they will later regret, even though they are capable. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.



We seem to have moved away from life's little lessons these days. For every action there is a consequence. It's Newton's third law, and it applies in a sociological sense, too. This is not a matter of convenient access to equipment, it's people not being taught the difference between right and wrong - and expecting something to happen to them when they cross a line.



For the closing statement in the article, technology still won't stop spoofing if someone were deranged enough to do so.

While I agree that personal inhibition is a huge factor, sites like RR remove the 'barrier to entry' in that regardless of ones intentions, RR makes it much easier to drop a bootleg radio onto a given system, regardless of system type.

I got into amateur radio in 1993, at that time there was no real listing for frequencies. Our local police were conventional analogue. It took weeks of scanning with 2 radios to figure out the input of the local repeater, now even knowing this frequency, I still never did TX on it. I simply wanted to listen to the units to see if I could hear them. It helped me to learn how simplex VHF propagated. Now, the input is simple to find. Our local police have their frequencies protected by IC and are not listed in spectrum direct, and it is because of this that I believe RR lowers the "barrier to entry"

I am not bashing RR in any way only stating an opinion.


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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Subliminal87 View Post
I do have to ask though.

"Someone with a two-way radio responded to the Wayne County Communication Center dispatcher almost immediately. "Waymart 1," the male voice said. It was an imposter.

For more than an hour, the 78-year-old woman waited for assistance."


Waited more than an hour? Really? Did the actual crew respond? If not, why? I would hope they have a way to check. Like if all else fails go check if the ambulance is there. Does the county not check on the units? If you have some odd response time, they will check up. These are honest questions
That is the part that is getting me. I'm guessing in that area police coverage is provided by PSP and I know they don't respond to most EMS calls unless they are requested. Most municipal police departments (aside from big cities) respond to all EMS calls unless they aren't available. Honestly though I'm not all that familiar with that area so I wouldn't know what protocols they follow.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2014, 3:44 PM
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Default Imposter responding to 911 call raises questions about safeguarding radio system

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Originally Posted by dcr_inc View Post
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Imposter responding to 911 call raises questions about safeguarding radio system
Quote:
Originally Posted by car55
If you are running a police department of 1,000 officers and that say only 500 radios than that 1 radio making it 501 is not program for the system. Why does it have access? I read all kinds posts that dispatchers can tell what radios that ID is for or disable the radio.

If you are unit 1 adam 12 to control than 1 adam 12 should show up on the dispatch console.

With sites like RR publishing all the info needed to program a radio, there is very little stopping someone motivated, from accessing a given network.


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Interoperatablity is not a technology it is an attitude!!!


The FCC database is open to the public.. Anyone wishing to find a frequency, can..

Once again folks, STOP blaming any and everything BUT the perp..

See my previous post about 'barrier to entry' while the government has most stuff online, RR strips away the difficulty in searching IC/FCC databases.

I agree all the info is out there, and the perp makes the decision, but sites like RR take all the leg work out of it by allowing mouthbreathers to simply point and click 4 or 5 times and have ALL they need to program. Also IC/FCC do not list PL/DPL/LCN/Connect tones/WACN ect.

Read the threads on RR with mouthbreathers that want everything handed to them on a silver platter. The 'what's the input to and tone 'agency X repeater'

This is what I mean by barrier to entry


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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2014, 5:46 PM
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902,

Spot On !
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Old 05-13-2014, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcr_inc View Post
kayn1n32008


Once again folks, STOP blaming any and everything BUT the perp..

This fact cannot be stressed enough.

With all the hoo-haa about the info being easily found,Keep in mind,You cannot Unring a bell.
Whats the next progressive statement to follow...Radioreference should be closed to the public...ScanNewEngland Next?..
Secure the sites,Give access to those who hold HAM tickets only..

While were on it,,may as well start discussing eliminating all the public safety feeds that are available..Punish the masses for the acts of a few..
Think of that next time your at Phila International (or your local Int-Airport) when your standing in an Xray booth or getting a want crashed into your crotch.

Careful what you wish for,,When you get it you may regret it.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2014, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 902 View Post
d.We seem to have moved away from life's little lessons these days. For every action there is a consequence. It's Newton's third law, and it applies in a sociological sense, too. This is not a matter of convenient access to equipment, it's people not being taught the difference between right and wrong - and expecting something to happen to them when they cross a line.
It is far easier for a Government to outlaw/ban an item than it is to modify public behaviour, thus essentially punish/chastise the majority for the sins of the minority...
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2014, 7:59 AM
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It is far easier for a Government to outlaw/ban an item than it is to modify public behaviour, thus essentially punish/chastise the majority for the sins of the minority...
You're right. That's why they not only do it, but get away with it. We are too concerned about, and one might argue distracted by, microminutia and abdicate holding others accountable to "someone else." Here's the problem: the third man has no problem doing that. For everyone (except himself).
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2014, 8:29 AM
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Default Whatever it is, this ain't it.

I started to post something yesterday, but I suppose I didn't ever hit submit. In some respects I'm glad I didn't, but the essence needs to be said: RR is not a facilitating mechanism for this sort of thing. Neither is the latest proliferation of low-dollar radio equipment. When I began in this hobby, a transceiver could be had at any hamfest and could be crystalled up on any frequency one chose. The opportunity was there more so than now. That is how I got into using commercial equipment. I didn't buy a transmit crystal until I became a volunteer in town. And, even then, it was groundbreaking for an individual member to have his own radio. The spotlight was on me at the time and it was my burden to be responsible with it (and pay the piper if I wasn't). The reality was that I can count using my own radio on one hand: Once was when I was stuck in a basement fire, another when my grandfather had a witnessed cardiac arrest.

Not only was that available, but in the early 80s, a modified IC-02AT could go on any VHF frequency based on keypad entry. In 1985, Yaesu introduced the FTC-1123/FTC-1143 transceivers that were type accepted and keypad programmed. Neutec, Icom, Midland, and others had similar ones. At the same time, a company called Maxon introduced a Minitor pager-sized crystal controlled hand-held for what was a relatively small amount of money for a portable radio at the time. "Real" radios, like MT500s and MX300 series radios cost well over $1,000 each (in 80s money). It was really cheap and revolutionary, but the land mobile radio world, which was largely based on VHF and UHF conventional systems, did not fall apart.

We had hobby magazines at the newsstand and we had online BBS forums that we could dial into on CompuServe (for $5/hr, which is about what I was making at the time), and we collected "who's on what" lists at a time when there wasn't any database, no ULS, and we couldn't wait for the latest edition of Police Call to come out. I actually had a Grove Enterprises microfiche copy of the FCC's database printout - and a reader to go with it. The big breakthrough in the NYC area was when the ScannerMaster directory came out with CTCSS tones and the county directory format.

There was also scrambling, albeit in rudimentary forms.

Functionally, everything was there. Whatever it is that is causing all of this, RR ain't it.

And, I'm still not convinced that there is a problem of epidemic proportion, but merely greater access to hyperbolic articles (J-school ain't what it used to be, either) and salesmen who are willing to stand on their soapboxes to flail their arms to meet their margins.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2014, 11:35 AM
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We live in a society today of taking no responsibility on someone's actions and it always turns to the pointing of fingers "it's because of this or that". It is the fault of the person(s) causing malicious interference, it's not RR's fault, or any of us members that people are morons. Calling out RR is like saying the spoon made you fat.
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Old 05-14-2014, 11:54 AM
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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; Android 4.0.4; LG-MS870 Build/IMM76L) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/34.0.1847.114 Mobile Safari/537.36)

Wait, so you mean to tell me the spoon DIDN'T make me fat?! Good thing the wife doesn't read these forums lol
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Old 05-14-2014, 8:07 PM
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Yeah,,But its one freakin HUGE Spoon!
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Old 05-14-2014, 10:02 PM
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What did the original caller to 911 say? I've fallen and I can't get up! She should be in a nursing home.
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Old 05-15-2014, 8:13 AM
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That is the part that is getting me. I'm guessing in that area police coverage is provided by PSP and I know they don't respond to most EMS calls unless they are requested. Most municipal police departments (aside from big cities) respond to all EMS calls unless they aren't available. Honestly though I'm not all that familiar with that area so I wouldn't know what protocols they follow.
Probably a volunteer ambulance service that didn't respond on first dispatch, but the imposter put the unit responding so the county didn't redispatch them.
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Old 05-15-2014, 9:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 902 View Post
I started to post something yesterday, but I suppose I didn't ever hit submit. In some respects I'm glad I didn't, but the essence needs to be said: RR is not a facilitating mechanism for this sort of thing. Neither is the latest proliferation of low-dollar radio equipment. When I began in this hobby, a transceiver could be had at any hamfest and could be crystalled up on any frequency one chose. The opportunity was there more so than now. That is how I got into using commercial equipment. I didn't buy a transmit crystal until I became a volunteer in town. And, even then, it was groundbreaking for an individual member to have his own radio. The spotlight was on me at the time and it was my burden to be responsible with it (and pay the piper if I wasn't). The reality was that I can count using my own radio on one hand: Once was when I was stuck in a basement fire, another when my grandfather had a witnessed cardiac arrest.

Not only was that available, but in the early 80s, a modified IC-02AT could go on any VHF frequency based on keypad entry. In 1985, Yaesu introduced the FTC-1123/FTC-1143 transceivers that were type accepted and keypad programmed. Neutec, Icom, Midland, and others had similar ones. At the same time, a company called Maxon introduced a Minitor pager-sized crystal controlled hand-held for what was a relatively small amount of money for a portable radio at the time. "Real" radios, like MT500s and MX300 series radios cost well over $1,000 each (in 80s money). It was really cheap and revolutionary, but the land mobile radio world, which was largely based on VHF and UHF conventional systems, did not fall apart.

We had hobby magazines at the newsstand and we had online BBS forums that we could dial into on CompuServe (for $5/hr, which is about what I was making at the time), and we collected "who's on what" lists at a time when there wasn't any database, no ULS, and we couldn't wait for the latest edition of Police Call to come out. I actually had a Grove Enterprises microfiche copy of the FCC's database printout - and a reader to go with it. The big breakthrough in the NYC area was when the ScannerMaster directory came out with CTCSS tones and the county directory format.

There was also scrambling, albeit in rudimentary forms.

Functionally, everything was there. Whatever it is that is causing all of this, RR ain't it.

And, I'm still not convinced that there is a problem of epidemic proportion, but merely greater access to hyperbolic articles (J-school ain't what it used to be, either) and salesmen who are willing to stand on their soapboxes to flail their arms to meet their margins.
+1,000 on this.

As far as the hour-long wait for an ambulance...sounds like a dispatching problem.

We are about as one-horse as they come in this county, yet for years, it has gone like so: Tones drop. If no answer in 90 seconds, they drop again. If still nobody logging enroute, they drop again along with an adjoining agency...and so on, until somebody logs enroute. Then you have to log on scene. And if you don't, you will get jacked up by the Dispatcher, who is rightly concerned whether or not you made the scene. Then you log complete and inservice, and back on station when you get there. Lots of radio traffic. Somebody simply repeating a unit number and the Dispatcher writing it off as, "oh they're enroute, I guess everything will be okay" is just plain not acceptable.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2014, 3:30 PM
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We are about as one-horse as they come in this county, yet for years, it has gone like so: Tones drop. If no answer in 90 seconds, they drop again. If still nobody logging enroute, they drop again along with an adjoining agency...and so on, until somebody logs enroute. Then you have to log on scene. And if you don't, you will get jacked up by the Dispatcher, who is rightly concerned whether or not you made the scene. Then you log complete and inservice, and back on station when you get there. Lots of radio traffic. Somebody simply repeating a unit number and the Dispatcher writing it off as, "oh they're enroute, I guess everything will be okay" is just plain not acceptable.
I live in an adjacent county to where this incident occurred. The way you described is basically how it works here in my county. There's a ton of traffic for dispatch time, arrived on scene time, arrived at hospital time, back in service, etc. It's hard to say for sure but it seems like at least 3 or 4 exchanges per unit (or squad) per call. However sometimes they dispatch 2 or 3 units to one call and then cancel the response(s) of units as whoever gets in line first actually responds.

It just seems that there is a lot of interaction between dispatch and the various responders around here. Often there is a crime response as well and dispatch coordinates the EMT staging area because it seems they usually get there before the police or state police do. Most of our "outlying" areas have no police force and rely on PA state police to respond and that can take awhile. Sorry for kind of getting onto a tangent there.
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