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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 3:51 AM
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Originally Posted by iamhere300 View Post
Great concept. Now where do you find these people that can do all that for free? I guarantee you, it rapidly gets to be a time intensive thing.

People who are active in the agencies who will use it will be great, but they have to have that knowledge of two way. They also need to be the actual users, not the senior management.
Why not create an advisory board comprised of people from the agencies who can demonstrate technical proficiency. COM-T, COM-L and even amateur radio operators within an agency, or associated agencies such as AUXCOMM, RACES, etc can also have a seat at the table.

The disqualifier would be anyone who is actively employed in the industry, or as a consultant, or employed by any potential contractor.

Hey, I never said it was easy. But I think an advisory board is a start.
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by johnls7424 View Post
Our defense ( military) has Harris as their sole supporter for their radios.
I assume you are not talking about the US military. I worked on many different manufacturer sourced radios, in various configurations. (Manpack, vehicular, avaition, shipboard and shore-based.)

The only genre, based on my experience, where Harris could be considered as an almost exclusive was in HF fixed plant systems. The R-2368 was widespread, and the seed for the receiver integrated into the shipboard HFRG system. Even with that, we had other brands of equipment installed for various HF uses.

To try and keep this on track with the original topic: I can hope that there were no underhanded methods used by Harris, to get those lucrative contracts. The DoD has seemed to recognize the issues possible with the contracts they issue, and try to keep everything legit. (Not to mention the concept of not putting all your eggs in one basket.)

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Why not create an advisory board comprised of people from the agencies who can demonstrate technical proficiency. COM-T, COM-L and even amateur radio operators within an agency, or associated agencies such as AUXCOMM, RACES, etc can also have a seat at the table.

The disqualifier would be anyone who is actively employed in the industry, or as a consultant, or employed by any potential contractor.

Hey, I never said it was easy. But I think an advisory board is a start.
Exactly, and why I said no one in the selection process should profit from one company over another. The consultation and decision making should be either part of the salary package, or a fee for service.

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by scannermanner1 View Post
who is it then??

LOL. Harris. Motorola. Icom. BK. Although provided outside of normal channels, I know for a fact that some Cobra CB radios where even used in Iraq.
  #45 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 1:14 PM
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SRX 2200 Combat Radio - Motorola Solutions USA

http://www.motorolasolutions.com/web...pdf?pLibItem=1

Motorola Solutions Defense Contracts
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Old 08-03-2014, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by iamhere300 View Post
LOL. Harris. Motorola. Icom. BK. Although provided outside of normal channels, I know for a fact that some Cobra CB radios where even used in Iraq.
Ok thanks, nice to know
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 3:07 PM
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Default Private Enterprise..

Ive been a user of Motorola emergency radios in NYC for the past 28yrs. Those radios have never failed me, and while there can be occasional problems, they are virtually indestructible, and reliable. They own the networks, the software, and its dependent on its encryption and software technology. Motorola have been used because of the fact that they are reliable. All those other radios are basically toys compared to motorolas radios. Now the government is complaining that they can't go to other companies because Motorola owns the original software and technology?? Well option 1-dump motorola and all their products for a new company and spend a fortune, thereby locking yourself to their technology. Option 2- Keep what you have and continue the relationship with a proven company.

Sounds to me, like they have little choice.. after all its a private company and they have every right to keep their technology.

George
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Old 08-03-2014, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by productionguy85 View Post
There is only 1 thing that needs to be said... At the end of the day EVERY SINGLE municipality had the choice and made the decision to go with Moto. How on Gods green Earth is that Motos fault? Everybody could have gone with somebody else, but THEY the ones who decided on the purchase didn't. Absolutely amazing how everybody is so quick to blame the bigger company for this or that. Not to mention it was quite funny how Relm Wireless, compared itself to Moto. I'd like to see a Relm portable dropped from the 2nd floor on to concrete and survive!!!!!!!
Ever hear of P***s envy?
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gaburbano View Post
Ive been a user of Motorola emergency radios in NYC for the past 28yrs. Those radios have never failed me, and while there can be occasional problems, they are virtually indestructible, and reliable. They own the networks, the software, and its dependent on its encryption and software technology. Motorola have been used because of the fact that they are reliable. All those other radios are basically toys compared to motorolas radios. Now the government is complaining that they can't go to other companies because Motorola owns the original software and technology?? Well option 1-dump motorola and all their products for a new company and spend a fortune, thereby locking yourself to their technology. Option 2- Keep what you have and continue the relationship with a proven company.

Sounds to me, like they have little choice.. after all its a private company and they have every right to keep their technology.

George
Have you ever heard of interoperability? And saying all the other radios are toys - come on, that is just ignorant.
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Old 08-03-2014, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gaburbano View Post
Ive been a user of Motorola emergency radios in NYC for the past 28yrs. Those radios have never failed me, and while there can be occasional problems, they are virtually indestructible, and reliable. They own the networks, the software, and its dependent on its encryption and software technology. Motorola have been used because of the fact that they are reliable. All those other radios are basically toys compared to motorolas radios. Now the government is complaining that they can't go to other companies because Motorola owns the original software and technology?? Well option 1-dump motorola and all their products for a new company and spend a fortune, thereby locking yourself to their technology. Option 2- Keep what you have and continue the relationship with a proven company.

Sounds to me, like they have little choice.. after all its a private company and they have every right to keep their technology.

George
I'd give it up. There is a lot of M hatred here. Just remember there is the best and then there's the rest. You got a bunch of wannebe M companies who want the gov to force M to stand back and make them just as successful as M. They don't think its fair that M is as big and prominent as they are and feel that they should be equal without earning it. The gov will probably do it too but they'll never be what M is until or unless they earn it. I won't hold my breath though.

The gov will force M back and let these others in at the expense of police and firefighter lives to prove what these companies are not, the best.

Heck one night an E-Trigger went off to something I was listening to at the time and the dispatcher responds to the Sgt asking who is it with "How am I supposed to know, it doesn't tell me" on a wannebe system using a copycat of MDC 1200.

Bet you a thousand bucks if it had been M she would have known instantly whose E-Trigger activated.

Thankfully it turned out to be an accidental activation but for about seven minutes or so no one had a clue. The units' radios showed a code not the unit's id and no one knew what the code equated to unit wise.

But yeah wannebes are just as good as. Right!
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by iamhere300 View Post
Have you ever heard of interoperability? And saying all the other radios are toys - come on, that is just ignorant.
Let me reword what I said.

Ive been a Motorola radio user in NYC for the past 28yrs. Those radios have never failed me and have never failed any of the other 50 Thousand people that I have worked side by side .. Oh wait I already said that.

Sorry I didn't mean that other companies radios are toys. I meant that "In comparison" to Motorola radios they are Toys…

Sorry I just realized that I basically said the same thing twice.. Ok, I figured if I said it differently maybe you might understand.

So let me ask this? How long have you or anyone else here used Motorola Radios, like the original MX, STX and Sabers? How many have used them in the middle of Riots, emergencies, and 2 WTC Attacks? Those radios (motorola) are proven radios and technology, in hundreds of cities around the nation. I know of small organizations that used some of the other manufacturer radios in place of purchasing Motorola radios on conventional systems and those radios fail.
So to clear things up here, I don't work for or in any way have any relationship with Motorola. I couldn't care less if they lost any particular contract other than the fact that I would feel terrible if anyone died as a result of some other company's radio failing or their network going down.

I could tell you that in NYC, the entire emergency radio infrastructure is Motorola based.

Oh and yes, I know all about interoperatibility. It might work in some small town where you have a 50 person volunteer fire department, 100 cops and 20 volunteer EMS people. They have been talking about inter-operatibility since the Commission came out on their report on Sept 11th.

Its a falsehood that "inter-operatibility" can work in a city like NYC. See here we have 35,000 cops, 8000 firefighters, 4000 EMS personnel. On any given day in NYC, there are over 30,000 Motorola radios in use by the emergency services.
I don't even own any motorola radios. Ive used them for a long time, but I like my radios for my hobby to be able to be keypad programable.

George

Last edited by gaburbano; 08-03-2014 at 5:39 PM..
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 8:45 PM
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YOU CAN BUY BETTER... BUT YOU'LL NEVER PAY MORE... Motorola
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 9:35 PM
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Even that last statement is not true.

I've read the submitted proposals for a number of radio system RFQs and I've seen Moto bids
come in SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper than their competitors on multiple occasions.

That doesn't always happen but it happens often enough that the statement, "you'll never pay more..." is an absolute falsehood. It isn't even funny anymore.

I've seen (in my local area) Motorola win a contract hands down on pricing, and yet the agency went with Harris instead, citing a greater need for their radios to be fully interoperable with the existing Harris EDACS system that blankets the county.

I believe that the vendor that offered the Motorola bid would have good standing to force the issue in court, but as far as I know that hasn't happened.

A lot of politicking goes on behind those closed doors, I imagine. The Good Ol' Boy Network is apparently alive and well and ensuring that the taxpayer doesn't get the best value for his tax dollars.
  #54 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2014, 10:52 PM
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The topic keeps getting lost, this is not about the quality of the gear, this is about underhanded business dealings.

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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2014, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghstwolf62 View Post

Heck one night an E-Trigger went off to something I was listening to at the time and the dispatcher responds to the Sgt asking who is it with "How am I supposed to know, it doesn't tell me" on a wannebe system using a copycat of MDC 1200.

Bet you a thousand bucks if it had been M she would have known instantly whose E-Trigger activated.

Thankfully it turned out to be an accidental activation but for about seven minutes or so no one had a clue. The units' radios showed a code not the unit's id and no one knew what the code equated to unit wise.

But yeah wannebes are just as good as. Right!
E-trigger. Right.

An emergency alarm is only as good as the training the officers are given, and the programming done on the radios. No better, no worse. A copycat of MDC1200. Hilarious. MDC1200 is just a signalling format, and it is in use all over, each day, with no issues from many different manufacturers.

Drink that kool-aid well. Enjoy it.

E-Trigger. LOL.
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Old 08-04-2014, 1:15 PM
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Sorry I just realized that I basically said the same thing twice.. Ok, I figured if I said it differently maybe you might understand.
Sorry I missed this. No, you only need to display your bias once, saying it over and over again still does not make it correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaburbano View Post
So let me ask this? How long have you or anyone else here used Motorola Radios, like the original MX, STX and Sabers? How many have used them in the middle of Riots, emergencies, and 2 WTC Attacks? Those radios (motorola) are proven radios and technology, in hundreds of cities around the nation. I know of small organizations that used some of the other manufacturer radios in place of purchasing Motorola radios on conventional systems and those radios fail.
You have 28 years experience? WOW. Let me kneel before your awesomeness.

I first carried a Motorola Two Way, an HT220, back in the 1970's in a Volunteer Fire Department. Then it was on to the Air Force, where I carried a MX radio. (best thing for cracking a head during a fight!) Over the years there has probably not been a VHF or UHF portable that Motorola made for the public safety market that I have not carried until the APX series. So about 38 years, if that makes a spit bit of difference. Back a few years ago, Mother did make the best equipment around. Now, the playing field is much more level. Still, tradition carries on, as does Motorola Sales tactics.

Hell Son, I even carried a MH10 on Lowband for a while. Pull out the telescoping antenna....

Every model has had their "issues". A couple I remember really well, MX300 series with the cracking frame. SP50 with the bad volume pots. HT series with the poor range.

I don't believe any statement that says any one manufacturer is better than the other, they all have their issues. Motorola is the one with the sales force that resorts the most to underhanded ways of making a sale however, which is the topic of this thread.....

Last edited by iamhere300; 08-04-2014 at 1:21 PM..
  #57 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2014, 3:48 PM
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Interesting read. Maybe moneyrola finally went too far.

This whole "homeland security" fiasco truly does make me want to puke when
I read of the outrageous sums of money squandered on un-needed goods throughout the nation in recent years, yet these agencies are more inept then ever.
This has been the biggest pork barrel I have ever seen or heard of.
How dare you question our government and need for security! What are you, a terrorist?! Only terrorists question the needs of safety for our homeland!

/sarcasm
  #58 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2014, 5:05 AM
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E-trigger. Right.
Come on, the E-trigger is an exclusive feature right along with the mixer!

gotta love the "experts" always coming along to tell us how we don't know anything.

Where would we be without them.
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Old 08-05-2014, 5:16 AM
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Sorry I missed this. No, you only need to display your bias once, saying it over and over again still does not make it correct.
While not as experienced as you Blake, I've owned probably every Motorola portable LMR radio since the HT220/MT500. My first was an MX-330S, my most current is an APX7000.

Every single product line: Gemini/Scorpion,Genesis, Jedi, Pro/Waris, Cosmo/Kramer up to Mackinaw has had major revisions in the production line multiple times. Every single product line was released upon it's customer base before the "failures were designed out of the product".

Only a fool fanboy who calls Emergency Call/Alarm an "E-trigger" which is defined as a feature set under APCO 16 standards would argue otherwise.

Let's see...just off the top of my head:

Genesis radios had cracking flexes to the U/C connector caused by poor soldering. Jedi radios: broken antenna connectors, RF board failures caused by chassis pin breakage that resulted in shorts, the famous Jedi microphonics on UHF radios, and of course "display cancer". Saber analogs with failing FDS modules, shorted PAs, Astro Sabers with problematic flexes, Pro/Waris radios with poor RX sensitivity on VHF models due to bad capacitors on the RF board in the antenna switching...and on,and on.

Motorola is the only vendor that I know of that charges their own customers to fix their bugs. Their high end subscriber units, including the Astro 25 line and APX, only come with a single year warranty. What does that tell you about "Six Sigma Quality". Other vendors of subscriber radios offer standard 2 and 3 year warranties for parts and labor and have for years. Motorola is the only vendor who charges more for the same thing.

You can buy a better radio, but you can never pay more. But I guess as so long as others feel like they get what they pay for, this is all that matters.

Must be nice to spend someone else' money so freely.

Drink up boys and girls!
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2014, 6:29 AM
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Haven't seen one of these threads on RR in a while. And even though it goes of the rails a little there's a lot of content here.

From what I'm reading here there is a lot of M hating, I wouldn't call it completely unreasonable. A contract of this scale, cmon guys... there was some behind the scenes stuff going on... But at this same time M is not the only manufacturer guilty of this. At least here in Michigan on the county/local level there has been some 'less than honest' stuff going on too with other companies.

M makes quality hardware and there is not much discussion about this. The properly designed systems work well and IN GENERAL the users are satisfied. But at this same time they are charging $4k a piece for a portable... A money that could be spend on another vendor's radio, which would work just as well but you could get 2 for this same price.

Somebody coined an idea of a advisory board. It sounds like a great idea but you have to remember that most people that are put in charge of procurement of radio systems have little to no idea about them. And I wouldn't go as far as one poster before with saying that they are just buying the cool toys because they can, they are buying cool toys because a sales rep told them to.

I had an opportunity to engage with some local governments that have been going through changes in their radio system. They aren't 'bought by' M, they aren't 'spending grant money on toys', they usually want to get the best stuff they can but they know less than the sales rep. The officials in charge of this (at least those I spoke to, maybe I was just lucky) were generally receptive and welcomed somebody with an idea how this stuff works beyond 'push the button and talk'.

What I think I'm trying to say is that we need more people that know this stuff, are willing to engage with local governments and ARE NOT employed by the manufacturer or a vendor. I think that the idea of the advisory board should be expanded on here on the forums.

But on the other note... good luck having feds listen to somebody telling them how to spend their money...

That's all I have for now.
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