Washington Times- "Taxpayers float bill for defective first responder equipment"

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mark40

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Washington Times- "Taxpayers float bill for defective first responder equipment"

Homeland Security still allows local police and fire departments to spend billions of tax dollars on faulty communications equipment that isn’t “interoperable,” meaning agencies can’t easily communicate with each other, hampering emergency response, the department’s inspector general said in a report released Thursday.

Golden Hammer: Taxpayers float bill for defective first responder equipment - Washington Times
 
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N5TWB

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SSDD - this theme has been beaten to death in these forums over the last 10 years or more. If radio hobbyists can see the problem, why can't the professionals charged with oversight of these funds?
 

flythunderbird

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If radio hobbyists can see the problem, why can't the professionals charged with oversight of these funds?

Speaking from a federal contracting perspective, it's not that they can't see it; it's that the #1 priority is distributing the funds. Making sure that the funds are spent properly is a much lower priority, if it is a priority at all. We know too well that Congress is all about "bringing home the bacon," with accountability being a secondary thing. A large grant makes for a better news release from a member of Congress than a blurb about X number of radios being sent to police and fire departments in Municipality Y courtesy of DHS. People can relate to cash money better than they can relate to interoperable radios (for example). Further, if the municipality has a local radio dealer, the grant money is often spent with the dealer, enabling the member of Congress to brag about how the grant is "creating/supporting jobs in his/her district" or some such nonsense.

The smarter solution would be for DHS to buy the radios through indefinite-delivery, indefinite-quantity contracts with the manufacturers and have the manufacturers ship the radios directly to the local departments or through local dealers; however, contracts like that would be more time-consuming and more costly for DHS to put into place/administer compared to simply "handing out the cash." It would also be contrary to Congress's desire to get the money in the hands of the people "back home in the district" and be able to brag about it. :mad:
 

natedawg1604

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I've got it: every agency in the Country should switch to satellite phones, a mobile and portable for every fire agency, PD and Sheriff's Department in the Country. After all, if they want "fully interoperable at any price", that's surely the best option!!!
 

flythunderbird

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I've got it: every agency in the Country should switch to satellite phones, a mobile and portable for every fire agency, PD and Sheriff's Department in the Country. After all, if they want "fully interoperable at any price", that's surely the best option!!!

natedawg, you're actually on to something here. What you've suggested could be done - and not very expensively. The federal agency I work for bought a couple dozen satellite phones and a large pool of airtime for less than $15,000.00 a year ago to satisfy continuity-of-operations requirements. A renewal of the airtime pool will be around $5,000 for the new fiscal year.

Whether or not the satellite phone network has the capacity for such a thing nationwide is another question, though.
 

PJH

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Well, the South American sat pirates seem to have no problem getting air time on the birds ;)
 

wa8pyr

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The problem isn't so much the equipment as how they use it.

Everything is capable of operating in analog mode still, and that's still the best option for true interoperability, but the major problem is education. An awful lot of agencies/counties/whatever simply are not interested in talking to their neighbors on the radio, and program their radios accordingly. Until agencies get over their paranoia/secrecy fetish/dislike of their neighbors/whatever, true interoperability won't be achieved, no matter how much money is thrown at the problem or what kind of equipment is purchased.

Not even the vaunted FirstNet (if they ever get over their petty bickering) could solve the problem without education and a change in mindset. . . especially if agencies have to pay monthly bills nearly as expensive as a cellphone, just to talk on the radio.
 

Boatanchor

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Lol, P25 was supposed to 'fix' many of these problems after 911, but in my experience it has just made it worse.

I've seen non-motoroola P25 terminals (user radios) lock up and fail to trunk properly on motoroola based trunking infrastructure. In this case, both the Motoroola infrastructure (base) equipment and the non-motoroola terminals were all CAP certified, yet still compatibility problems occurred.

So, even after all this time, there are still incompatibility problems between manufacturers of P25 equipment.

And, that's before we even delve into the problem of the multitude of digital 'standards' that are cropping up to compete with P25.

P.S Changed the spelling because I don't want my post automatically linking to their site.
 

2wayfreq

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So, let me get this straight:
It's Homeland Security's fault that local comm equipment is defective or not "Programmed Properly"?? I would think that it is ultimately up to the local City, County etc. IT Managers and Engineers putting these systems together to ensure that the right equipment is chosen, Programmed and thoroughly TESTED Prior to being put online in the field!
I hate being biased, but if any of that equipment has a Harris label, there is part of your problem.
 

Bruce42

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Interoperability - Hah

Interoperability is NOT a technology, it is an Attitude. An earlier post referred to agencies who really do not want to cooperate and to politicians who just want to shovel out the money with no responsibility. Analog is the answer, not multiple incompatible digital technologies to sell more radios.
 

riccom

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here lies 2 issues,
One: the It's mine mind set, if i cant control then i do not want it!
#2 see number one!
Every one wants the pie, not a slice, the whole thing, and big M dont help, they will sell you a radio but why go on there system when you can have your own, and be more secure and no one can monitor(key words spoken is can not be monitored)
but in hind site they may have 25 all around but we want mototrbo or we want nextedg or tetra, so we wont have to be on THERE set up!
in truth they have a valid point, lets use for example, if say Phoenix had a failsoft kick in, ok so p.p.d. has it going and phoenix fire has there analog setup, but what about Glendale or Buckeye?
they got rid of there systems and jumped on the prws. and they cant talk now(i know they have back ups this is for example only) so now what.
 

AC9BX

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Interoperability is NOT a technology, it is an Attitude.

Hear Hear.

Long live analog FM, high antennas and good/complete radio programming works. Some places have had excellent interoperability for decades without billion dollar digital simulcast systems.
 

bosco836

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Hear Hear.

Long live analog FM, high antennas and good/complete radio programming works. Some places have had excellent interoperability for decades without billion dollar digital simulcast systems.

^ This.

Analog FM - although old - is still (in my view) one of the easiest things to make interoperable across systems. Not that it can't be done with P25, but with so many radio format flavours out there (NXDN, DMR, P25, etc.) it just adds another layer of complexity.

Are the digital technologies nice? Sure. But the reality is, many departments - particularly in my area - have competing digital technologies, and even when they're the same, like so many people have said before, we've seen issues with consoles from manufacturer A lock up when used on B's system etc.

Some of our departments still use and/or otherwise maintain an analogue VHF system. Interoperability is quick and painless using this system.

Those who don't have invested countless dollars in patch-type systems, etc. Sadly, the last 5 or so major incidents I can recall here, the patch systems either a) didn't work or b) weren't deployed in a fear that they won't work (again).

Is the problem solvable? No. Not at all.

However, when I look back to 5-10 years ago, before all the "digital" switching occurred in my area, it was very easy for Fire Department A to talk to Police Department B or Fire Department C. Now, it's almost unheard of.

Just my musings.....take them for what you will.
 

gtaman

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^ This.

Analog FM - although old - is still (in my view) one of the easiest things to make interoperable across systems. Not that it can't be done with P25, but with so many radio format flavours out there (NXDN, DMR, P25, etc.) it just adds another layer of complexity.

Are the digital technologies nice? Sure. But the reality is, many departments - particularly in my area - have competing digital technologies, and even when they're the same, like so many people have said before, we've seen issues with consoles from manufacturer A lock up when used on B's system etc.

Some of our departments still use and/or otherwise maintain an analogue VHF system. Interoperability is quick and painless using this system.

Those who don't have invested countless dollars in patch-type systems, etc. Sadly, the last 5 or so major incidents I can recall here, the patch systems either a) didn't work or b) weren't deployed in a fear that they won't work (again).

Is the problem solvable? No. Not at all.

However, when I look back to 5-10 years ago, before all the "digital" switching occurred in my area, it was very easy for Fire Department A to talk to Police Department B or Fire Department C. Now, it's almost unheard of.

Just my musings.....take them for what you will.


Just like Ohio LEERN. It's a state wide simplex VHF frequency that is also patched to nearly every trucked radio system in the state.
 

ResQguy

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This is a terribly written article. Interoperability has little to do with dollars spent and much to do with understanding capability, governance and training. It certainly has nothing to do with failing infrastructure due to poor preventative maintenance. The biggest impedance to successful first responder communications is purely political. Elected officials and their hand picked offspring have no place in telling the boots on the ground what to purchase and how to program it.

And please stop blaming the manufacturers. Every single one produces interoperable equipment. It's up to you to specify and implement it properly. They will make money one way or another.
 

gtriever

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"Defective" equipment? "Substandard" Motorola equipment? The original article is full of fail, and some of the previous posters here have raised some interesting points. I think most of us are in agreement that (1) Interoperability is more than just hardware and (2) the analog National Interoperability Channels offer the quickest path to inter-agency communications.

Fingers have been pointed at politicians, federal and local officials, and the manufacturers, but nobody has yet mentioned the two-way dealer who continues to push non-P25 equipment at the Public Safety agencies, even though he knows that, right or wrong, P25 was selected as the standard. Surely he has to take some responsibility as well.
 

AC9BX

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Here (as do our neighboring States) we use the federally set aside nationwide police, fire, medical, and emergency VHF frequencies and every one of these jurisdictions has them in their radios or at least dispatch does and it's been this way for decades. Where's the problem with interoperability? If a given radio or department is having trouble that need be fixed but moving to a whole new thing and keeping the old ones too for backward compatibility is a waste and arguably makes matter worse. At the more regional level most fire departments near me have access to each other's frequencies as well as the federal ones. Then along comes the fed to set aside even more nationwide frequencies in 700 and 800 for interoperabilty that nobody here uses at all, while they complain about a lack of available bandwidth and the need to narrowband.

Here's what's wrong with interoperability, as usual too much government does more harm than good:
We have...
Illinois' Statewide Communications Interoperability Plan
Illinois Emergency Management Agency
Illinois State Police (and their emergency radio network)
Illinois Terrorism Task Force
Illinois Emergency Services Management Association
Illinois Law Enforcement Alarm System
Emergency Management Assistance Compact
Mutual Aid Box Alarm System (which is great and mainly uses just one frequency, the nationwide one)
Illinois Telecommunicator Emergency Response Task Force
Emergency Management Network
ILEAS Agency Preparedness Program
Illinois Public Safety Agency Network
Illinois Public Safety Telecommunications Association
Illinois Transportable Emergency Communications System
Illinois Wireless Information Network
Law Enforcement Aviation Coalition
Law Enforcement Mutual Aid Agreement
then add to this...
National Domestic Preparedness Consortium
National Emergency Communications Plan
National Incident Management System
FEMA, and dozens more, all with their suggested interoperability plans .... You'd think this would have been sorted out 50 years ago.
 

gtaman

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Here (as do our neighboring States) we use the federally set aside nationwide police, fire, medical, and emergency VHF frequencies and every one of these jurisdictions has them in their radios or at least dispatch does and it's been this way for decades. Where's the problem with interoperability? If a given radio or department is having trouble that need be fixed but moving to a whole new thing and keeping the old ones too for backward compatibility is a waste and arguably makes matter worse. At the more regional level most fire departments near me have access to each other's frequencies as well as the federal ones. Then along comes the fed to set aside even more nationwide frequencies in 700 and 800 for interoperabilty that nobody here uses at all, while they complain about a lack of available bandwidth and the need to narrowband.

Here's what's wrong with interoperability, as usual too much government does more harm than good:
We have...
Illinois' Statewide Communications Interoperability Plan
Illinois Emergency Management Agency
Illinois State Police (and their emergency radio network)
Illinois Terrorism Task Force
Illinois Emergency Services Management Association
Illinois Law Enforcement Alarm System
Emergency Management Assistance Compact
Mutual Aid Box Alarm System (which is great and mainly uses just one frequency, the nationwide one)
Illinois Telecommunicator Emergency Response Task Force
Emergency Management Network
ILEAS Agency Preparedness Program
Illinois Public Safety Agency Network
Illinois Public Safety Telecommunications Association
Illinois Transportable Emergency Communications System
Illinois Wireless Information Network
Law Enforcement Aviation Coalition
Law Enforcement Mutual Aid Agreement
then add to this...
National Domestic Preparedness Consortium
National Emergency Communications Plan
National Incident Management System
FEMA, and dozens more, all with their suggested interoperability plans .... You'd think this would have been sorted out 50 years ago.

Plenty of ITAC and ICALL repeaters here. And they have been silent for years on end.
 

ecps92

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You don't need the Nationwide Interops on a regular basis, if your normal Mutual Aid / Interop functions properly, which might explain the silence for you.

It's for when you have the "BIG ONE" and the resources are coming from outside of your Normal Mutual Aid / Interop networks

Plenty of ITAC and ICALL repeaters here. And they have been silent for years on end.
 
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