RadioReference on Facebook   RadioReference on Twitter   RadioReference Blog
 

Go Back   The RadioReference.com Forums > Announcements and News > Community Announcements and News

Community Announcements and News - Announcements and News of interest to the entire RadioReference/Broadcastify Community. All new threads posted here will be moderated by the administrators. *** Please post regional and manufacturer specific news in the appropriate regional or manufacturer forum. Thanks. ***

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #61 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2017, 3:52 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 179
Default

I work with local PD and use a Motorola APX7000 with a stubby antenna. And I also have a Kyrocera Brigadier. I can't tell you how many times the phone has lost all service in areas and so have others around me on other networks. Making them useless. But the radio still worked fine. OTOH, Been way to many times I key up and get the familiar "BUUUUURRRRR" sound because it can't digitally connect to the tower.... And at times, BOTH failed. This has bad idea stamped all over it. Straight digital radios are bad enough between the 2-3 second delays and random inability to either send or receive traffic although it claims full signal connection to tower.... I've done the "don't shoot" test before. All the other end got was "oot". Then, Theres times my phone can't get a signal for periods of time or doesn't work because the tower is overloaded on traffic leading to dropped/missed calls, messages not sent or received, and definitely no data. Putting everything on one "system" is begging for more problems.... Cell networks are far to saturated as it is.... Whether you have priority traffic or not. The hardware doesn't care when it decides to go down....
Just my thoughts and experiences as meaningless as they are.
__________________
This space for rent.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #62 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2017, 5:11 AM
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bletchley Park
Posts: 1,469
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruiseomatic View Post
Cell networks are far to saturated as it is.... Whether you have priority traffic or not.
That's because nobody has priority (data) traffic now. With FirstNet, if the network is saturated, priority will make a difference.
Reply With Quote
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2017, 7:22 AM
MCore25's Avatar
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lone Star Republic
Posts: 2,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruiseomatic View Post
I work with local PD and use a Motorola APX7000 with a stubby antenna. And I also have a Kyrocera Brigadier. I can't tell you how many times the phone has lost all service in areas and so have others around me on other networks. Making them useless. But the radio still worked fine. OTOH, Been way to many times I key up and get the familiar "BUUUUURRRRR" sound because it can't digitally connect to the tower.... And at times, BOTH failed. This has bad idea stamped all over it. Straight digital radios are bad enough between the 2-3 second delays and random inability to either send or receive traffic although it claims full signal connection to tower.... I've done the "don't shoot" test before. All the other end got was "oot". Then, Theres times my phone can't get a signal for periods of time or doesn't work because the tower is overloaded on traffic leading to dropped/missed calls, messages not sent or received, and definitely no data. Putting everything on one "system" is begging for more problems.... Cell networks are far to saturated as it is.... Whether you have priority traffic or not. The hardware doesn't care when it decides to go down....
Just my thoughts and experiences as meaningless as they are.
It's funny, every time this thread pops up I'm in Schaumburg at an Astro 25 class. One of the things we played with last time I was here (granted this is a lab environment) was the WAVE LTE gateway. Well, acquisition times will vary between the two formats however, once permitted P25 takes roughly 50-100ms to process the audio (so a relatively small latency). LTE on the other hand, about 2100 ms.

As I've said previously, LTE is not going to be a solution everywhere due to existing coverage issues and will likely not be a practical voice solution for primary communications (the hardware requirements needed to lower the latency to match that of P25 will put the handsets in the same price range as P25 portables). Cities/metroplexes…it'll be good but it'll have issues in the more rural areas.
__________________
If a repeater IDs and no one is on frequency to hear it, does it even make a sound? Yes, because KC5MVZ is monitoring you…
Reply With Quote
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2017, 5:13 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 66
Default

in my hometown, Spokane, Washington, our system is Motorola, P25 and it seems to work like a dream
Reply With Quote
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:11 PM
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 1,032
Default

LTE will be fine for things like data, location services, MDT screens, photos, etc. It is probably NOT the solution for PTT comms.
__________________
Making your scanner useless, county by county.
Encryption, it pays my mortgage.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #66 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:19 PM
BlueDevil's Avatar
Member
  Audio Feed Provider
Audio Feed Provider
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: WA
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter1968 View Post
in my hometown, Spokane, Washington, our system is Motorola, P25 and it seems to work like a dream
I thought you guys were having a lot of problems with that system?

Radio system failure left Spokane County fire, police without communication for three hours | The Spokesman-Review
__________________
Cheers,

Brandon
Reply With Quote
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2017, 12:33 AM
mmckenna's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SNCZCA01DS0
Posts: 7,160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDevil View Post
A nightmare is a type of dream.
__________________
--------------------
Beer me.
Reply With Quote
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2017, 3:44 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,938
Default AT&T Wins FirstNet Network Contract

I am currently a Verizon customer. One of the main reasons that I have it is because it seems to have the best coverage across the entire United States. I would consider switching, however, if AT&T leaps past Verizon in terms of better coverage. Does anybody here have any wild speculation of when that is likely to happen?
Reply With Quote
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2017, 4:12 PM
mmckenna's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SNCZCA01DS0
Posts: 7,160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JASII View Post
I am currently a Verizon customer. One of the main reasons that I have it is because it seems to have the best coverage across the entire United States. I would consider switching, however, if AT&T leaps past Verizon in terms of better coverage. Does anybody here have any wild speculation of when that is likely to happen?
I've discovered that, too. I've got an AT&T work phone and some of my guys have Verizon. Verizon often works in places my phone won't. Of course that's all a location dependent thing.

So, as far as I know, the LTE Band 14 stuff is for first responders. I don't recall reading anything that said AT&T could sell unused bandwidth to consumers. If that was the case, I'd suspect we'd see some benefit to end users.

However, since AT&T will be expected to provide coverage in certain areas, and the big cost of that is building the site, tower, enclosure, power, backhaul, etc, it would make sense for them to add some of their own consumer cellular capacity to the site.
Where this would be in question is if FirstNet is going to require coverage in places that currently do not have consumer cellular coverage. The decisions about what to cover and what not to cover will depend on the states. There will be no reasonable way that FirstNet or AT&T can provide 100% coverage across country, so they are going to have to make some decisions about what constitutes a good investment of FirstNet dollars, and what will be skipped over.
My understanding, so far, is that FirstNet will be primarily in urban and suburban areas. There isn't much value in spending limited dollars on very rural or wilderness areas for public safety.
__________________
--------------------
Beer me.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #70 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2017, 4:59 PM
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bletchley Park
Posts: 1,469
Default

Excess capacity on band 14 will be used for consumers (when not needed for public safety)...that's the entire economic model of FirstNet and what makes it desirable for their partner (at&t).
In terms of rural coverage, the law that created firstnet requires firstnet (at&t) to build rural areas as well.
What exactly that means for improved coverage, we'll see. I'm sure if at&t adds a site somewhere, they will put multiple bands on it...building and only putting 14 on it makes little sense.
Reply With Quote
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2017, 5:28 PM
W9BU's Avatar
Lead Wiki Manager
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brownsburg, Indiana
Posts: 4,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderknight View Post
In terms of rural coverage, the law that created firstnet requires firstnet (at&t) to build rural areas as well.
Kinda makes you wish you had started investing in tower sites a few years ago.

Back in the late 1990's, I worked on a project for one of AT&T's predecessors. During the project, I visited approximately 60 COs around Indiana. A few of those COs had no indoor plumbing. A few were in "towns" that did not appear on an Indiana road map. A few of them were in locations where you could scan the horizon and easily count the number of other buildings you saw on the fingers of one hand.

It will be interesting to see how AT&T deals with providing FirstNet coverage in rural areas.
__________________
Lead Wiki Manager and Forum Moderator.

"The whole world's living in a digital dream. It's not really there, it's all on the screen." -- WB6ACU
Reply With Quote
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2017, 7:43 PM
gtaman's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: GALAXY 19 91.0° W
Posts: 680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JASII View Post
I am currently a Verizon customer. One of the main reasons that I have it is because it seems to have the best coverage across the entire United States. I would consider switching, however, if AT&T leaps past Verizon in terms of better coverage. Does anybody here have any wild speculation of when that is likely to happen?
T-Mobile and Verizon will have the best coverage due to the 700Mhz and now 600Mhz license holdings.
__________________
My RT-1523E SINCGARS is just an oversized armored Motorola Maxtrac.
Reply With Quote
  #73 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2017, 7:56 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
Kinda makes you wish you had started investing in tower sites a few years ago.
Or anything with elevation. A neighboring City here is so strict on tower construction, the once slated to be torn down old mill yard chimneys are now prime cellular vertical real estate bringing in thousands of dollars a month. They aren't going anywhere soon...
Reply With Quote
  #74 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2017, 10:19 PM
MCore25's Avatar
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lone Star Republic
Posts: 2,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
It will be interesting to see how AT&T deals with providing FirstNet coverage in rural areas.
I'm personally of the opinion that AT&T has one of the better voice networks. However, best data network goes hands down to Verizon (I'm an AT&T customer for the record).

As you said, it'll be interesting to see how they build it out. One of my major arguments concerning the impracticability of FirstNet is the lack of current coverage to many areas in the US. For example, a Big 12 college location one can wander 5 miles past city limits and see the little 3G icon pop up on their phones with AT&T...get off a decent road and your Edge icon pops up if you have service at all. Unfortunately, a public safety grade system requires 100% coverage, anything less and your simply throwing away taxpayer money.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk
__________________
If a repeater IDs and no one is on frequency to hear it, does it even make a sound? Yes, because KC5MVZ is monitoring you…
Reply With Quote
  #75 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2017, 12:06 PM
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 1,032
Default

Half of Nevada (on the highways) has no coverage. Don't even start on the areas just off the roads.
__________________
Making your scanner useless, county by county.
Encryption, it pays my mortgage.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #76 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2017, 1:42 AM
krokus's Avatar
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 2,857
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCore25 View Post
I'm personally of the opinion that AT&T has one of the better voice networks. However, best data network goes hands down to Verizon (I'm an AT&T customer for the record).
Then they have seriously improved their network. During the days of "fewest dropped calls" I would spend half of my phone conversation asking the other person to repeat themselves. My Verizon phone, and Sprint before that, even my 1997 Voicestream, had better sound quality.

That voice quality has to improve, for public safety use. No time to be asking for repeats.

Sent via Tapatalk
__________________
Generic radio geek, in southeast Michigan.
PSR-500, TM-742, TM-V71,TH-78, HTX-420, IC-2AT, IC-2E (clone), Pro-39, BC-235XLT, TK-290, XTS-5000
Reply With Quote
  #77 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2017, 8:28 AM
MCore25's Avatar
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lone Star Republic
Posts: 2,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krokus View Post
Then they have seriously improved their network. During the days of "fewest dropped calls" I would spend half of my phone conversation asking the other person to repeat themselves. My Verizon phone, and Sprint before that, even my 1997 Voicestream, had better sound quality.

That voice quality has to improve, for public safety use. No time to be asking for repeats.

Sent via Tapatalk
I've noticed, it really just depends. VoLTE has a very high quality call (64k streams) but the latency with VoLTE technology is upwards of 2100 ms. Of course, when I say data I'm primarily referring to LTE networks in this age. Voice I consider anything 3G or below.
__________________
If a repeater IDs and no one is on frequency to hear it, does it even make a sound? Yes, because KC5MVZ is monitoring you…
Reply With Quote
  #78 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2017, 9:48 AM
Member
   
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New Orleans region
Posts: 2,396
Default

I am not holding much hope for AT&T to walk into this LTE project and come out the other side with much to show for a functional, country wide system. I base this on their very poor performance with their land line operation and the mentality that the corporate management have towards their customers.

Let me elaborate from personal experience. When I first moved into my current house, AT&T would not even supply a DSL connection for Internet service. The company was spouting about fiber to the house. But asked if there were any plans to supply fiber here, the answer was no.

So I filed a formal complaint with the FCC. About 2 month later, I get a phone call from the AT&T corporate office. This lady explained to me that the company has no plans to add additional equipment to provide a DSL connection. Then she goes on to say that there are no plans to provide fiber in this sub division.

In another light of AT&T mentality, I was paying $85 a month for my land line connection. Contacted the local cable company. They told me that if I combined my business Internet service with phone service, they could provide all sorts of the same features that AT&T was providing for only $30 a month. So I kissed AT&T good by and now have both a high speed Internet and a phone in the house and pay $55 less than AT&T was charging me.

So now that the country is looking at AT&T to provide this wonderful new LTE public safety radio system nation wide, I don't expect to see it any place but in big cities. AT&T will start complaining it is too expensive to provide the service out in any rural area.

Gee, isn't what this new LTE, Public safety radio system is all about? Time will tell just how AT&T acts on building out the new LTE, nation wide system. My bet is we never see it outside the cities, based on how AT&T has functioned in the past. If it was bell South, then that would be a whole different story.

Before Bell South became AT&T, there was a whole different mind set. The customer came first and the cost wasn't the main goal. Now the new AT&T management have no concern for the customer, just the bottom financial line and their pay check with the bonus.

Prove me wrong. I have been in the cellular business for a very long time and been working on public safety radio systems even longer. Have seen a number of radio companies drop by the wayside during this time. have seen a number of cellular companies get bought up or just die on the vine over the years. But this AT&T LTE venture with First Net is going to be interesting to say the least.

One other interesting outcome we will start to see is all the tower rental companies that were making a fortune on leasing these 400 to 600 foot towers are about to see their bottom line fall like a rock. If you look at these tall towers, the cellular antennas are no longer at the top. The cellular antennas being used are now down much lower on these towers. They are starting to look like a pine tree that got infested by the bark beetles. All the top cellular antennas have been cut off. Maybe they have been left there, but no longer used. The companies leasing the space, have just abandoned them. This goes against their lease, but the leasing companies have done little to enforce the clause that these antennas must be removed.

The reason these antennas are no longer being used at the top of these tall towers is capacity for the cellular systems. With the antenna lowered, you can reuse the same frequencies closer on other towers. With the tall towers, they covered a large area. Now with the demand for more customers using the system, the only way is to add more sites and reuse the frequencies on towers with the antennas lower to cover a smaller area.

Let's sit back and see how many of us feel what the outcome is. Going to be an interesting several years now to see just what happens.
__________________
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #79 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2017, 10:40 AM
mmckenna's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SNCZCA01DS0
Posts: 7,160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim202 View Post
I am not holding much hope for AT&T to walk into this LTE project and come out the other side with much to show for a functional, country wide system. I base this on their very poor performance with their land line operation and the mentality that the corporate management have towards their customers.
To be fair, AT&T wireline and AT&T Mobility are essentially two different companies. While the name is the same and the top tier guys are the same, that's about where it stops. I've got a few AT&T Mobility cell sites here where I work. They needed more bandwidth as part of their LTE buildout. Watching the interface between AT&T wireline coming through our MPOE to the cell site and AT&T mobility was a bit humorous. The term "bunch of monkeys trying to hump a football" came to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim202 View Post
So now that the country is looking at AT&T to provide this wonderful new LTE public safety radio system nation wide, I don't expect to see it any place but in big cities. AT&T will start complaining it is too expensive to provide the service out in any rural area.
I do suspect you are correct. While there are certain requirements built into the contract, AT&T has a lot of lawyers and will find a way to weasel out of some of it. I fully expect that AT&T will start chipping away at the final deliverable, diverting resources to more profitable endeavors.

AT&T is going to have to do that to make this work, and I suspect the guys at FirstNet know that. While I'm sure the contracts are all very binding and legal, we all know that contracts are things to be broken when they don't serve the needs of one of the parties. This is what lawyers are for, and AT&T has a lot of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim202 View Post
Gee, isn't what this new LTE, Public safety radio system is all about? Time will tell just how AT&T acts on building out the new LTE, nation wide system. My bet is we never see it outside the cities, based on how AT&T has functioned in the past. If it was bell South, then that would be a whole different story.
Again, I agree.
However, the building out of the urban FirstNet LTE structure will be pretty easy. While I don't know for sure, I'm betting it's just a software/minor hardware upgrade for the existing 700MHz LTE base stations. I'd be really surprised if this is going to be all new equipment. Increasing bandwidth is going to be easy, most urban sites are on fiber already, so that's cheap.
Where the costs will come from is site hardening. Where AT&T suffers now is lack of back up generators at their sites and limited/poorly maintained battery plants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim202 View Post
Before Bell South became AT&T, there was a whole different mind set. The customer came first and the cost wasn't the main goal. Now the new AT&T management have no concern for the customer, just the bottom financial line and their pay check with the bonus.
MaBell really knew how to do things. I hired a couple of ex AT&T guys that were just fed up with the way things were going. Some of the best trained, knowledgeable and hardest working techs I work with are ex-AT&T guys. The guys we get when AT&T does a service call now are lacking. Getting repairs done is difficult. Often it's some guy from well out of the area, doesn't know where any of the facilities are, isn't equipped, etc. My trust in AT&T wireline is pretty much gone, and that is a common feeling across the industry.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jim202 View Post
Let's sit back and see how many of us feel what the outcome is. Going to be an interesting several years now to see just what happens.
Yeah, times, they are a changing, that's for sure.

Just for kicks, I keep an old Motorola brick phone here in my office. Fun to pull it out when someone start complaining….
__________________
--------------------
Beer me.
Reply With Quote
  #80 (permalink)  
Old 05-16-2017, 10:52 AM
W9BU's Avatar
Lead Wiki Manager
  RadioReference Database Admininstrator
Database Admin
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brownsburg, Indiana
Posts: 4,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim202 View Post
One other interesting outcome we will start to see is all the tower rental companies that were making a fortune on leasing these 400 to 600 foot towers are about to see their bottom line fall like a rock.
OTOH, about 10 years ago, someone started putting up 150-200 foot towers along rural Interstate highways in my neck of the woods. Those towers sat empty for years. They are now starting to sprout cell phone antenna arrays. For the company who secured the property leases and put up those towers, it was foresight that paid off.
__________________
Lead Wiki Manager and Forum Moderator.

"The whole world's living in a digital dream. It's not really there, it's all on the screen." -- WB6ACU
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 8:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All information here is Copyright 2012 by RadioReference.com LLC and Lindsay C. Blanton III.Ad Management by RedTyger
Copyright 2015 by RadioReference.com LLC Privacy Policy  |  Terms and Conditions