Speaking of Encryption (which we're not allowed to talk about) and inter-agency ops

[sefrischling]

This evening Westerly, RI, had a pursuit into Stonington and Groton. Westerly had gone to 100% encrypted a while back on the RISCON system, and it seems they no longer have access to "The Hotline," which at one time they had access to because of their border with Stonington.

Listening to CSP, Stonington and Groton try and meet up with the Westerly unit, which had been rammed by the car it was chasing, was interesting. Groton thought Stonington could communicate with Westerly. Stonington thought Westerly could broadcast on The Hotline , so what happened was Westerly was using the radio to speak with it's disapatch who had to call Stonington, who then had to use The Hotline to notify Groton ... and this is how you lose a car you are in pursuit of, after it rams a police cruiser from a neighbouring town.

Interestingly, RISP Dispatch is in the clear on RISCON and was not at all involved in the radio communications, although they can hear and directly communicate with Westerly.

So much for the 911 Commission requiring everyone be interop with everyone else.

 

[MrAntiDigital]

If the Westerly, RI Police had kept that HOTLINE (I believe 45.86 MHz), they would have had communications with those other police departments. All the other police departments in the area have it (45.86) as I hear it in use all the time.

As reported by the previous poster, Westerly once had the option of direct radio communication with Connecticut. But RI was in such a hurry to convert to the newest radio systems, this is now the price they pay.

When we look at this crime, although very serious, I don't think anybody got hurt. BUT, it could have very well been "A COP KILLER" who got away with this instead. Just for the sole purpose of some new radio system that Westerly and the entire State of Rhode Island was "SOLD ON".

As citizens, each of us depends on those police officers every day to protect us. And those police officers depend on a radio system to help them do their jobs and sometimes save "THEIR OWN LIVES".

As I look at this story, it goes back to a saying I remember. "If it's NOT broke, Don't fix it". What worked THEN, would have worked NOW.

Thanks for allowing me the chance to tell my side of the story as I see it. And Thanks for listening.

 

[RoninJoliet]

Excellent story, just like here in my totally "ENC" town in IL, after choosing to block out the scanner public the chief now needs input on robberies and murders...It used to be "OH i heard that call on my scanner and that car with people shooting guns went that way, but now with no scanner traffic its "WHAT CAR"....The old days worked great now nothing works.....

 

[gewecke]

Excellent story, just like here in my totally "ENC" town in IL, after choosing to block out the scanner public the chief now needs input on robberies and murders...It used to be "OH i heard that call on my scanner and that car with people shooting guns went that way, but now with no scanner traffic its "WHAT CAR"....The old days worked great now nothing works.....

So much for police transparency, right Ron ? :roll: 73, n9zas

 

[a417]

it's really, REALLY ridiculous that any agency chooses to do away with a single radio in dispatch / HQ that gives them hotline access. You build this huge newfangled system, all the bells and whistles, and you don't have a SINGLE RADIO in your system, patched into the console or sitting in a corner (like ours was) that gives you the capability.

If that's what happened, shame on them.

 

[sefrischling]

If the Westerly, RI Police had kept that HOTLINE (I believe 45.86 MHz), they would have had communications with those other police departments. All the other police departments in the area have it (45.86) as I hear it in use all the time.

I hear The Hotline every day, most commonly it is how Groton Town and Groton City communicate. Most common things on The Hotline are PD's looking for K9 and BOLOs.

As I understand it, Westerly was removed from The Hotline because they are in Rhode Island and not Connecticut, despite Westerly bordering Stonington, with multiple main roads crossing between the towns, and it's downtown being located a few blocks from Connecticut. Westerly, unlike other border towns, has heavy traffic from Connecticut and is a 'city' with a thriving downtown, beaches, etc . Many chases and BOLOs in Westerly are ultimately ending up in Connecticut ... but sure, let's have a border issue and pretend the roads don't wind in and out of the two states between Westerly and Stonington and that the PDs don''t need to directly communicate with each other.

Hell, Pawcatuck Fire in Stonington is dispatched by Westerly and Westerly EMS covers Stonington.

 

[zuzuski]

Because NO-ONE took it upon themselves to take control of the communications, and ACTIVELY assign proper channels to use.
8-CALL system is a NATIONWIDE system! - as is UTAC (UHF) and VTAC (VHF).

Purely LAZYNESS

 

[sefrischling]

I have never hear the system in use here in New London County. I don't think I know any cruisers that have it installed either.

 

[jim202]

Well your comments are about the same all around the country. The upper management had a radio vendor come in and do the wine, dine and tap dance for their new radio system. Problem is the radio vendors don't give a rats butt about interoperability with any of the surrounding agencies. Encrypt everything and your good to go.

Sound familiar? Happens all the time. Problem is the department heads all believe the song and dance they are fed by the radio vendors. It's the old hook, line and sinker story at the expense of the local tax payers. No one ever thinks that the facts and system specifications should be gone over by an outside consultant before any commitment is ever made on the radio system.

So you end up with an empire by the agency head and a radio system that may or may not provide the communications the municipality really needs. Maybe if there was a local radio geek involved in the process, you might avoid loosing the ability to communicate with your neighboring agencies.

Bottom line is politics gets in the way of having a good, functional radio system. You end up with an island radio system that no one else can get to radio wise when all the domino's fall. The old story of "It's my sand box, you play in it only when I say so", is what you end up with.

 

[MrAntiDigital]

Well your comments are about the same all around the country. The upper management had a radio vendor come in and do the wine, dine and tap dance for their new radio system. Problem is the radio vendors don't give a rats butt about interoperability with any of the surrounding agencies. Encrypt everything and your good to go.

Sound familiar? Happens all the time. Problem is the department heads all believe the song and dance they are fed by the radio vendors. It's the old hook, line and sinker story at the expense of the local tax payers. No one ever thinks that the facts and system specifications should be gone over by an outside consultant before any commitment is ever made on the radio system.

So you end up with an empire by the agency head and a radio system that may or may not provide the communications the municipality really needs. Maybe if there was a local radio geek involved in the process, you might avoid loosing the ability to communicate with your neighboring agencies.

Bottom line is politics gets in the way of having a good, functional radio system. You end up with an island radio system that no one else can get to radio wise when all the domino's fall. The old story of "It's my sand box, you play in it only when I say so", is what you end up with.

I think this above quote really just about sums the entire issue up.

Also, if someone or some organization told Westerly to remove that intercity police channel for no other reason except the fact that they are over the Connecticut border, then I suggest someone make it very clear to them that "What if this was a cop shot and killed" ? Could that somebody be held liable for the action of having that radio removed ?

I am sure once the issue is fully explained to whoever, they will be more than willing to give that some second thoughts. If not, and somebody drops the ball, "they are responsible". Unfortunately, sometimes a little pressure needs to be put on those responsible in order to make positive changes.

 

[cg]

So, you don't trust the radio vendors and you don't trust management but you trust the "local radio geek"?

It is well beyond the time to test a system when it is actually needed.
I would suggest that it is more likely the fault of the police departments involved. If there was no planning for mutual aid/ responses into other jurisdictions, it is likely the fault of the chiefs. If the was a plan but the dispatcher, supervisor, or patrol officers failed to follow it, the blame would likely land there. If there was a plan, the equipment was in place and working, the users were trained and practiced in it, and it still failed to work I would be very surprised. Cops usually go for firearms training at least annually. How often do they train on the full capabilities of the issued communications equipment. Yet they use one of those tools far more often than the other.

chris

 

[MrAntiDigital]

So, you don't trust the radio vendors and you don't trust management but you trust the "local radio geek"?

It is well beyond the time to test a system when it is actually needed.
I would suggest that it is more likely the fault of the police departments involved. If there was no planning for mutual aid/ responses into other jurisdictions, it is likely the fault of the chiefs. If the was a plan but the dispatcher, supervisor, or patrol officers failed to follow it, the blame would likely land there. If there was a plan, the equipment was in place and working, the users were trained and practiced in it, and it still failed to work I would be very surprised. Cops usually go for firearms training at least annually. How often do they train on the full capabilities of the issued communications equipment. Yet they use one of those tools far more often than the other.

chris

I can NOT speak for the person who used the term "Radio Geek". But my feeling is the point might be that perhaps these radio sales persons may actually be more concerned with what's in it for them, then what's in it for the town or city they are trying to sell the system to.

Nothing wrong with making a living. But is a new expense radio system really needed ? Maybe before any place goes out and spends that huge sum of money, other options may exist. Does that radio salesperson offer that option as well ? It's really no different than going to buy a new car or get the older car repaired. If the car can be repaired for a much less money and get the job done, that might be the way to go. Rather than having the car salesman show you the most expensive car on the lot and tell you how good you would feel if it were YOU to drive it off the lot.

The educated buyer is the best kind of buyer. Especially when it comes to the taxpayers buying it.

 

[imonitorit]

Most of the times those who are looked at as at the bottom of the totem pole know more but aren't given any consideration because of the egos of management kicking onto high gear.


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[MrAntiDigital]

Most of the times those who are looked at as at the bottom of the totem pole know more but aren't given any consideration because of the egos of management kicking onto high gear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"imonitorit", it is interesting you mention that.

Over the last few months, I have been contacted by many members on this site. All of which seem to agree with what you say. But just don't want to get into a dispute with "the experts". It's not just places like Westerly, RI and it's Connecticut border towns having this issue. And fortunately, so far it does NOT involve serious things like somebody who just shot a cop.

Just like Connecticut has it's 45.86 intercity police channel to contact various law enforcement agencies throughout the state, Rhode Island also had one. It was used very successfully from the largest and busiest city to the north, the City of Providence, to its most southern smaller city of Westerly. That channel was 158.97 mhz. and as far as I know, every police vehicle and police dispatch center had that channel in it should the need arise. They all used it very often.

Then as someone else mentioned here came a few fancy dinners and perhaps pay back for a few political favors. Suddenly it becomes very important to replace the entire radio systems for all of the local Rhode Island police depts. Replacing car radios and radios for every dispatch center. I have no idea what the entire cost was OR the huge sum of money that was put into someone's pocket. All to replace radios that each and every taxpayer paid for regardless of whether it was needed or not.

This is just ONE example of the kind of story that might NOT be told here. But that probably effects each and everyone of us here as a taxpayer.

I know in my own home town there was recently bids offered to convert the entire radio system as well. In a city that just had to make some major cuts claiming there was NO Money. How many free steak dinners did my civic leaders take advantage of ???

But we don't get to read about those stories. Only about how GREAT a new radio system might be.

 

[sefrischling]

Anti-Digi,

RISCON as a system makes sense. RISCON essentially allows all Police/Fire/EMS to be on a single system. It allows for extensive interoperability within the four Statewide "Wide Area" talk groups, along with South Area, North Area and Metro Area groups. For the fire side, there is a statewide tanker task force talkgroup and statewide hazmat talkgroups, as well as Fire Chief and Mutual Air talk groups, that have VHF patches.

As Rhode Island is such a small state it works ... although as some PDs are encrypted and others are not, town to town they may not be able to communicate as their encryption is different, which I find absurd. The state isn't big enough for a turf war like that (not that any state should have one).

But cutting off communications between border towns is just short sighted.

In CT by the way, I know of no cruisers with access to The Hotline. Many listen in on a scanner, but those communications are dispatch to dispatch.

 

[MrAntiDigital]

Anti-Digi,

RISCON as a system makes sense. RISCON essentially allows all Police/Fire/EMS to be on a single system. It allows for extensive interoperability within the four Statewide "Wide Area" talk groups, along with South Area, North Area and Metro Area groups. For the fire side, there is a statewide tanker task force talkgroup and statewide hazmat talkgroups, as well as Fire Chief and Mutual Air talk groups, that have VHF patches.

As Rhode Island is such a small state it works ... although as some PDs are encrypted and others are not, town to town they may not be able to communicate as their encryption is different, which I find absurd. The state isn't big enough for a turf war like that (not that any state should have one).

But cutting off communications between border towns is just short sighted.

In CT by the way, I know of no cruisers with access to The Hotline. Many listen in on a scanner, but those communications are dispatch to dispatch.

Thank you and I understand.

My point I am trying to make is just how well a system HAS worked without spending huge sums of money.

You are right, unlike those RI police vehicles, I assume most Connecticut police vehicles do not have that mutual aid channel of 45.86. Unlike many of the police dispatch centers which do.

So what should be done here ? Should the Connecticut taxpayers pay for an entire new radio system ? A state that right now is in some of the worst debt throughout our entire country. Should it come out of our federal government funding, that we all support ? Last I knew we were in the hole there for about 30-40 TRILLION Dollars (?). Most of us really have no idea of what each and everyone of us actually owe.

Is it possible that a much less expensive system could be put into place. Perhaps a few RI border police dispatch centers have that 45.86 MHz installed at their consoles. Can that be done without everybody in Ct trying to join a very complicated and expensive police radio system ?

Or do we just write a check and say; "don't worry about cost, lets just get it anyway".

 

[KC4RAF]

Florida use to have something in the line of

mutual aid frequency, can not recall what it was, but if Polk county SO was doing a chase and it lead into Orange county, they would use that freq. to contact LEOs in Orange. It worked great. But then Polk decided to spend a few million dollars for radios that didn't have that frequency, or they did away with those radios, and now it's phone call time to Orange.

 

[sefrischling]

Perhaps a few RI border police dispatch centers have that 45.86 MHz installed at their consoles. Can that be done without everybody in Ct trying to join a very complicated and expensive police radio system ?

Hell, I could just give Westerly a radio and a basic antenna. That would at least get them in communication with Stonington and Groton. At 50 watts, probably Troop E as well.

 

[coolrich55]

So what about 853.937. Tri state interop? I've never heard it used. When the dispatchers know what they're doing interop can work very well. In the past I've heard the hotline, cspern, csp talkgroup and a local pd frequency all patched together. I've also heard a pursuit a while back that started in the troop c area then went to Mass. The dispatcher was able to patch the troop c talkgroup with the MSP analog trunked system. Worked flawlessly. Although the local pd's like Groton and Stonington don't have the capability to do any of what the CSP can do I imagine.

 

[MrAntiDigital]

Hell, I could just give Westerly a radio and a basic antenna. That would at least get them in communication with Stonington and Groton. At 50 watts, probably Troop E as well.

"sefrischling" you are absolutely correct. It could be as simple as that.

When Bridgeport had a major building collapse killing 29 construction workers, that incident brought in mutual aid from every border fire department as well as police depts.

It brought in numerous EMS agencies from outside the city.

The Connecticut State Police was required as this large apartment complex bordered the nearby Rte 25/8 Expressway and not far from that very busy I-95.

Mutual aid came in from the FDNY, Fairfax County, Va Fire, as well Dade County, Fla Fire, for their expertise in building collapse as well as special equipment required.

There were several other state and federal agencies brought in as well.

This operation continued on for a period of about two weeks. Throughout that time, radio communications had to be maintained through the various agencies. The term "interoperability" had NOT been thought of yet.

There were times when that nearby expressway had to be shut down and communications had to be made between the search teams, the fire dept, the city police and the CSP. A private EMS as well.

That entire operation went on through the use of a few portable radios being carried by commanders of their various agencies. I remember the incident well. And as I remember it, "there was NOT One Radio Problem during the entire operation".

To show you the magnitude of this incident, here is a youtube video. This video really does not give the full feeling of the size of this incident. I believe this large apartment building was about 14-15 stories high and this pancake collapse started as a pin broke on the upper level floors in what was called "Lift Slab Construction".

The point is, the entire radio communication was handled with several different agencies, from local, state and federal. ALL THROUGH THE USE OF SOME PORTABLE RADIOS. .

Here is that video of one of Connecticut's Worst Disasters to ever occur within our state borders. With all emergency communications being handled over some portable radios.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0tkypjf8Q