Why do we retain Michigan's obsolete frequencies?

[MPSCS]

The majority of conventional and trunked analog frequencies in the database for Michigan are obsolete, and have been for some time. It's very confusing for someone new entering into the hobby, and presents a lot of needless clutter for all of us. I had ask one time why they were being maintained and the response was that they may be activated again in the event something goes wrong with MPSCS. It's unlikely that will happen in most cases because the infrastructures and equipment has either been pulled, or are no longer functional.

I'm thinking if they still need to be available they could be moved to the Wiki, and just keep the database listings for current, active frequencies and talk groups.

What does everyone think?

Thanks!

[ka3jjz]

A better solution; send the updates to the DBA team via the submit link. That way with the updates in place people using the web service will get up to date information.

Of course, things under investigation should go to the wiki 73 Mike

[MPSCS]

Theres no real problem in the database with the updates. It's kept up to date very well. The issue is with maintaining the old obsolete data. The DBA teams know it's there, because there are subtle notes to that effect. I guess I just don't understand why it's being maintained.

[ka3jjz]

I thought I made it clear, but maybe not - so let's try this again -

If no one tells the DBA that some data is obsolete - not with 'subtle notes', but with a ticket created by an individual - then the data just stays there.

'Subtle notes' doesn't get the job done. Get a ticket created with the updates and track it - if nothing is done in say, a week, then yell about it. 'nuff said.

73 Mike

[MPSCS]

Originally Posted by ka3jjz

I thought I made it clear, but maybe not - so let's try this again -

If no one tells the DBA that some data is obsolete - not with 'subtle notes', but with a ticket created by an individual - then the data just stays there.

'Subtle notes' doesn't get the job done. Get a ticket created with the updates and track it - if nothing is done in say, a week, then yell about it. 'nuff said.

73 Mike

Mike, you're missing my point completely! Maybe it is me that hasn't made things clear. So I will try this again.

It is the DBA team that is leaving the subtle notes within the database, not me!

Look at Macomb County as an example:
Macomb County, Michigan (MI) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

Michigan Public Safety Communications System (MPSCS)
Project 25 Standard All public safety operations in Macomb County are on the MPSCS TRS, with the exception of the city of Warren.
Warren Public Safety Project 25 System
Project 25 Standard All public safety operations in the cities of Centerline and Warren use this TRS.

Yet below these headers are listings of the old analog systems that are for the most part no longer in use.

Even within the obsolete listings they have similar notes like this:
460.15000 KQA783 RM123.0 PLMacombShrf 3 Sheriff [F-3] [Has moved to the MPSCS TRS]

Do you see what I am saying?

Thanks

[Chauffeur6]

My personal feeling/observation is that they are very hesitant and resistant to remove anything from the DB once it's in there. Especially if the FCC licenses are still valid for any given frequency, whether it's actively used or not. I guess they fear some people might be too quick to remove legacy frequencies, and they might one day be pressed back into service or whatnot.

I submitted an update not long ago for a frequency that was incorrectly labeled as "Fireground Portables", when the fact was this particular agency never, ever used that frequency for two-way communication. It was used 20 something years ago for traffic light controls before the OptiCom system became the standard. I've had a personal relationship with this agency going back 17 years, and know with absolute certainty this frequency does not belong in the RR database. Yet, even after my detailed and thorough explanation in my submission, the only action taken was the description changed to "Fireground Portables (inactive)" So not only was it not removed as it should've been, but it was still kept labeled incorrectly. That frequency was never programmed into a single two-way radio going back decades.

[ka3jjz]

In a way I can see why they might resist removing data. However there's just as much of a chance of an old frequency coming back with a new user, then not coming back at all.

That's very much an Eric (chief DBA admin) issue to address. But one of the first questions he's likely to ask is 'did you submit a ticket for this'? and 'supply the number'. That's the only way the ball gets rolling.

If indeed the DBAs are leaving these old notes in the database (as MPSCS asserts), it's their responsibility to clean up after themselves, particularly if someone has made a ticket up that says 'this data is obsolete - please drop it'.

The chain of responsibility, folks, begins with you 73 Mike

[MPSCS]

Thanks Mike for attempting to explain this.

I'd really like to hear from the DBA(s) on this issue before spending any time on trying to fix it. Like I said, in the past I was told the changes would not be implemented even if submitted. That is why I dropped it. I'm curious if their reasons still stand. That was many years ago! That is why I posted this here to begin with, hoping for a response from those who maintain it.

I sent a PM to Ron. Hopefully he'll chime in here.

Thanks

[Thunderbolt]

Many of these departments still have their old legacy radio equipment. This includes portables and mobiles that can be pressed back into service if needed. Apparently, these agencies feel that its in their best interest to do, especially if we were to have a major disaster in the state of Michigan. However, the city of Detroit, removed all of their legacy radio infrastructure, and made this a matter of public record. Likewise, this was confirmed and that information was removed from the database as soon as the changes went into effect. Detroit decided to purchase redundant 800 MHz., base transmitters/repeaters and use them for backup communications, should their MPSCS Zone go into a prolonged failure.

So far no subscribers have sent us any specific information regarding the confirmation that certain redundant legacy systems have been removed from service. This includes the sending us submissions that we can track and keep better tabs on. Those who have sent us information that confirms that a radio channel has been permanently removed from service, is so noted in the database. We can mark it deprecated or just plain remove it.

73s

Ron

[mtindor]

This is a hornet's nest

1. All of the data in the DB is not confirmed. It is supposed to be confirmed now before an admin enters it, but somewhere along the line [before i was around] it must not have needed to be confirmed. I say this because there are obvious blatant additions to various cities, counties, states, whatever that were entered in based completely upon an FCC license being issued. And we all know that these days we are no allowed to simply enter in data from FCC records without it being confirmed as in use. I personally have no problem with this either. The validity of the data is crucial.... and that has to start by entering in new information only if it is confirmed... and over time less reliable data can be picked apart as time and available confirmation methods exist.

I imagine that in the beginning that was probably the only way to go... get FCC data, enter it in along with anything that people confirm, and then people have something to listen to and can confirm/deny the use of the ones submittted directly from the FCC. Back when there were no lists of area frequencies except for FCC data, it made sense to enter in FCC data to give people a "base of frequencies" to work with.

These days we can't just add something because it's in the FCC database, or at least we are not supposed to... only confirmed data should be entered.

There is obviously a lot of "legacy" information in the DB that is correct along with a lot that is not correct.

2. I have always been told not to delete anything from the database unless I have confirmation / an extremely high level of confidence that the frequencies are no longer in use as listed.

This is difficult... If somebody submits a ticket stating "this frequency is not in use", then we have to follow up with them with sometimes many back and forth exchanges to determine how they know this and then we have to place a confidence value on that... If we aren't in that area to know intimately the frequencies in use, we have to trust somebody else. And just because somebody else says a frequency is no longer in use, does that make it so?

I personally know of agencies that continue to maintain radios on VHF or low band that, even though they never use them anymore, they have available for use should their primary communications on a trunked system be unavailable. One of the radios may not have been keyed in a year, but could be at a moment's notice if need be.

So I usually go through a long process of back-and-forth exchanges with somebody who submits a request for deletion of outdated data. I ask as many questions as possible.. I try to pick their brain, find out where they came upon this information, ask them if they have firsthand knowledge (are they a member of a department, heard it from a member of a department, do they work at or are they friends with somebody working in at a radio shop, etc. I ask them if they know whether or not the actual radios have been pulled from the vehicles or not.

So, to me it is an extremely tedious process, in many cases, to make a determination as to whether a frequency is actually abandoned or not.

In my home county I can think of _many_ frequencies that I have never heard active in 25 years. But I also know that they were likely used only within that city, that I wouldn't necessarily hear the simplex comms from my location consistently, and that the radios may still exist in vehicles and in the departments. So without some way of confirming that these frequencies are no longer active (the agency has sold the radios, traded them in for their new radios on different frequencies, pulled the radios from operation, etc), I have to assume that the frequencies are still valid frequencies.

I'm just a state DB admin.. I'm sure the global DB admins and Lindsay will have more to say. I would love to clear up a lot of the data in areas that I listen to which I haven't heard anything on in years.... but just because I don't hear it doesn't mean they aren't transmitting or that they don't have the capability to transmit. So I have to leave the data in there.

Example: My county's Sheriff Department is on the trunked system. Their lowband license expired a few years ago and was removed from the DB. I personally had to resubmit the information indicating that even though the license is expired and they have a presence on the trunked system, they continue to use low-band at least 50% of the time.

In this day and age, there would be no reason for somebody to believe that their lowband was still in use given the countywide usage of the trunked system, the fact that their lowband license is expired, and the fact that the sheriff budget is in the minus and they can't afford radio repairs for 30 year old equipment.... but, it is in use.

Conversely, just as I had to provide adequate assurance that it is in use, somebody must be able to convince me that a frequency is not in use by the agency listed. If somebody suggests that a frequency needs to be removed, they can expect to be interrogated. The last thing I want to do is remove valid information.

Mike

[MPSCS]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt

Many of these departments still have their old legacy radio equipment. This includes portables and mobiles that can be pressed back into service if needed. Apparently, these agencies feel that its in their best interest to do, especially if we were to have a major disaster in the state of Michigan. However, the city of Detroit, removed all of their legacy radio infrastructure, and made this a matter of public record. Likewise, this was confirmed and that information was removed from the database as soon as the changes went into effect. Detroit decided to purchase redundant 800 MHz., base transmitters/repeaters and use them for backup communications, should their MPSCS Zone go into a prolonged failure.

So far no subscribers have sent us any specific information regarding the confirmation that certain redundant legacy systems have been removed from service. This includes the sending us submissions that we can track and keep better tabs on. Those who have sent us information that confirms that a radio channel has been permanently removed from service, is so noted in the database. We can mark it deprecated or just plain remove it.

73s

Ron

Some of these situations the radio techs themselves have confirmed that the equipment is not only out of service, but physically removed from the sites and sold off or scrapped. Other instances the officers for firefighters have confirmed permanent changes. Would this be substantial enough to remove the data?

If we want to keep it in the database, maybe we could color code the header to bring attention to it's questionable status? But that wouldn't work when doing software download/imports. Anyway they could be flagged with color when doing imports?

Thanks

[Thunderbolt]

Originally Posted by MPSCS

Some of these situations the radio techs themselves have confirmed that the equipment is not only out of service, but physically removed from the sites and sold off or scrapped. Other instances the officers for firefighters have confirmed permanent changes. Would this be substantial enough to remove the data?

If we want to keep it in the database, maybe we could color code the header to bring attention to it's questionable status? But that wouldn't work when doing software download/imports. Anyway they could be flagged with color when doing imports?

Thanks

Here again, nobody has submitted any information to the database admins that these changes have taken place. Likewise, in the past we have removed information based upon what someone "in the know" feels is the case, only to be rebuffed by a person of higher authority within that department. Therefore, its a long and tedious process, which required cross-confirmation.

73s

Ron

[MPSCS]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt

Here again, nobody has submitted any information to the database admins that these changes have taken place. Likewise, in the past we have removed information based upon what someone "in the know" feels is the case, only to be rebuffed by a person of higher authority within that department. Therefore, its a long and tedious process, which required cross-confirmation.

73s

Ron

So basically you are saying we shouldn't even bother?

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just trying to confirm what I was trying to explain to Mike earlier. What is the point of sending submissions if they're going to be denied?

[detroit780]

Bill,

Let's use Livingston county as an example. There are several VHF frequencies listed as Sheriff TAC No Longer in use.

So I agree why bother listing them if the notes say NO LONGER USED. I have not heard ANYHTING on those in the 9 years I have lived here and never seen a VHF radio in ANY Sheriifs vehicle or in dispatch or the Sheriffs department.

Take 154.77 as an example it's licensed till 2013. Now a licensed frequency does not mean it's in use it just means they renewed it in 2003 most likely thinking they might use it. I don't think most departments are going to inform the FCC that they no longer use a frequency they just let it expire.

The truth is they like the digital radios and do any real private work in Nextel.

It would be nice it a new section was created in the end of the couty listings titled Out of Service or Seldom Used or something like that. While on the subject it would be great if they didn't list the same frequency multiple times in the conventional database.

Programs such as Win500, PSR500 and ARC 500 make things easier by downloading direct from RR however you need to spend a fair amount of time afterwards making sense of it.

Example: 154.01 Livingston County Fire dispatch is listed for every community. So if you were from out of town trying to program the radio you would end up with 8 different listings of 154.01.

For trunked systems in many states you doing an import you get things like Police dispatch in multiple places. Once on the road you look at the radio and see police dispatch but have no clue where. There are a few states that are detailed very well and you get a pretty good idea of what is what doing radio programming.

Les

Originally Posted by MPSCS

So basically you are saying we shouldn't even bother?

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just trying to confirm what I was trying to explain to Mike earlier. What is the point of sending submissions if they're going to be denied?

[mciupa]

I say let the database be the custodian of supposed deprecated frequencies and let the scanner owner decide what is clutter by including or not including them. Let us decide what we should load into our scanners and keep the info available.

I must say I respect the integrity of mtindor and Thunderbolt.
Proof is a must.

[DaveIN]

Not to mention if a tower in the MPSCS system goes down and the nearest tower is not giving the reception needed, a possible fallback could be the unused frequencies for some agencies. Also, some police agencies have been cut to the point that they work with neighboring communities to provide mutual aid on frequencies that may not have been in use for some time. Today's scanners have no problem skipping by unused frequencies, I say it's up to you if you want to keep or delete the suspected unused channels. Housekeeping on the database is a full time job.

[rdale]

Originally Posted by DaveIN

Not to mention if a tower in the MPSCS system goes down and the nearest tower is not giving the reception needed, a possible fallback could be the unused frequencies for some agencies.

Not really. Most agencies fallback to the ITAC channels. Very few (certainly not Lansing) have the old radios anywhere in the streets to utilize.

[detroit780]

Yes I Call and I Tac frequencies are in all of the MPSCS radios and make falling back to those a matter of changing the zone. Most agencies don't keep their old systems running since they would need to leave the old radios and antennas in every vehicle.

Originally Posted by rdale

Not really. Most agencies fallback to the ITAC channels. Very few (certainly not Lansing) have the old radios anywhere in the streets to utilize.

[detroit780]

I don't think anyone in this thread said the DB managers weren't doing a good job what is being debated is outdated frequencies. One would think a discussion could take place to get us all thinking about how improvements could be implemented. I think the discussion is offered to the DB managers, if they don't think the ideas are worthy they won't take place. If they do and can accomplish them that's good too.

Originally Posted by mciupa

I say let the database be the custodian of supposed deprecated frequencies and let the scanner owner decide what is clutter by including or not including them. Let us decide what we should load into our scanners and keep the info available.

I must say I respect the integrity of mtindor and Thunderbolt.
Proof is a must.

[MPSCS]

OK then, I'll leave well enough alone and just update my own information.