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Digital Voice for Amateur Use Discuss use of digital voice technologies on the amateur radio bands. This is to include technologies such as VoIP, P25, DMR/TRBO, NXDN, D-STAR, etc.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2011, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mancow View Post
Range is a big one.

I would often try to get into a uhf repeater 60+ miles out where a lot of friends would hang out and BS. I could use analog and be scratchy and annoying or switch to digital P25 (It is a Quantar) and be perfect copy every time.
Same here in Detroit. The range into a mixed mode machine is 3 times as far on P25 than analog FM, using the same handheld.
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:01 PM
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Are you saying that this is what you've experienced with P25 versus analog?

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
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Yes. Up to a certain point, the analog gets noisy, but the digital is still full quieting, but at a certain point as the signal gets weaker, the digital signal is gone, but the noisy analog signal still gets through. But the signal has to be pretty bad for this to happen. GARY N4KVE
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Old 05-16-2011, 7:39 AM
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Interesting. This is not what we've experienced with MOTOTRBO. At the point that the analog FM signal becomes unreadable, the MOTOTRBO signal just starts to 'twist'. Overall, we've seen a 3db improvement in system coverage with MOTOTRBO as compared to wideband analog FM. I've had discussions with one of the country's best rf propagation engineers and he agrees with what we've found in our experience with MOTOTRBO.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

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Originally Posted by MOONBOOTS View Post
Yes. Up to a certain point, the analog gets noisy, but the digital is still full quieting, but at a certain point as the signal gets weaker, the digital signal is gone, but the noisy analog signal still gets through. But the signal has to be pretty bad for this to happen. GARY N4KVE
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Old 12-16-2011, 1:49 AM
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Default Ham TRBO Stream is now Available

There is now a stream for both DCI/TRBO-6 and DMR-MARC Networks if anyone would like to hear what TRBO sounds like or just monitor the networks.

MotoTRBO Amateur Networks - DCI/TRBO-6 and DMR-MARC Live Scanner Audio Feed

More info: DCI IPSC Network - c-Bridge Networks - Streaming DCI/TRBO-6 and DMR-MARC Networks via Radio Reference
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by KD4BBM View Post
No, it's not legal. And not because it's digital. And it's nothing related to encryption. It's because the user radios use single slot TDMA, which is not a permitted emission under Part 97.307. Repeaters are fine, but technically, every user is breaking the law. That's why the ARRL is trying to change the law to get this fixed. FCC Seeking Comments on ARRL Petition Regarding TDMA

So yes, there is some truth to the reports that it's not legal. Hopefully this will be easily fixed. But P25 IS legal and used by far more public safety agencies that MotoTRBO. That's where I'm investing.

Ray, KD4BBM
Ray, Not to sound arrogant or anything but I think you should read up on DMR and TDMA. The ARRL's chief complaint is one slot TDMA which is technically impossible by definition of Time Division Multiple Access. The ARRL also unfortunately fails to understand that MOTOTRBO made by Motorola is one manufacturer of DMR equipment, the technology is not called MOTOTRBO. There are at least a half dozen others that manufacture equipment with this open standard. That being said, each manufacturer is specifying their emission designators differently with their filings and the FCC had been accepting this as OK. Yet it is a standard and they use the same modes for digital voice. Go figure that one. So, one has to just use a legal mode, i.e. digital voice and they are OK. It's all on how you adapt the commercial equipment for ham use that makes the difference. Please consider reading this well articulated comment to FCC NPRM-11625:
Filing by Six Meter FM Club of Crystal Lake, IL in RM-11625 on 2011-04-19 00:00:00.0
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:17 PM
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My reasons for doing the digital thingy is simple, i want to play around with another mode that`s different from analog, i`ve been doing DSTAR for a while now, and am looking at mabey ether P25 or mabey even motoTURBO, i had the oppertunity to demo a TURBO radio at Dayton and was really impressed with how it sounded, right now the cost, and the lack of any TURBO repeaters in WI are the main reasons i`n not doing it right now, but if the prices come down some i just might give it a passing look. N9NRA
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Old 01-29-2012, 8:06 AM
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Default DMR-MARC-Mototrbo

Being a HAM, I am very interested in digitial systems. I have explored the DMR-MARC site and registered with the network. I had an older XPR-6500 Mototrbo handheld however was limited due outdated firmware and radio memory. So I purchased a new XPR-6550 from Motorola and the CPS without cutting corners.

It seems pretty straight forward, but it is a learning process. DMR-MARC provides a starter codeplug that is a tremendous time saver. Motorola was right on time mailing the latest CPS-7.0. The programing seems pretty straight forward using cut and paste from the MMR-MARC CP. But there are some differences I see between the DMR-MARC configuration CPS-? and the New CPS-7.0. For example CPS-7.0 provides for a Channel Pool, and I have no idea if I am supposed to this since it is new.

Is anyone familiar with this?

Chris
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:08 PM
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The channel pool is used in Capacity Plus configurations as well as for IPSite Connect roaming (and it's not new to CPS 7). For maybe a better description go to the help file and check out the topic titled 'Adding Zones, Channels and Personalities'
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:30 PM
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I do have a MotoTurbo question. My company recently installed a pretty extensive commercial MT system with several repeaters that hand off based upon where you are and groups for the numerous functions. Once we cut over from analog to digital everyone noticed that the audio was no where near as clear. It sounds like people have buckets over their heads. Is this a normal characteristic of these systems? I have DSTAR experience and this sounds much different. Just curious. Not trying to start a digital war here.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:00 PM
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joen7xxx,

Your company's management would do well to get directly on the phone with the company that installed that system and tell them to appear onsite with a service monitor immediately or face a lawsuit. There is no reason for a DMR system to sound crappy, period, end of story. All properly installed digital systems sound very good, be they DMR, P25, D-Star, or whatever. I use DMR worldwide on an IP net, as well as simplex and local repeaters, and the received signals sound as if the person on the other end is in the same room with me. If your guys let the installer get away with less than that level of performance then it's their own fault.
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Old 02-26-2012, 9:49 AM
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Default MotoTRBO on HAM

Quote:
Originally Posted by N9NRA View Post
My reasons for doing the digital thingy is simple, i want to play around with another mode that`s different from analog, i`ve been doing DSTAR for a while now, and am looking at mabey ether P25 or mabey even motoTURBO, i had the oppertunity to demo a TURBO radio at Dayton and was really impressed with how it sounded, right now the cost, and the lack of any TURBO repeaters in WI are the main reasons i`n not doing it right now, but if the prices come down some i just might give it a passing look. N9NRA
I feel the same way... I want to play around with another mode. I live in Michigan and 5 DMR (MOTOTUBRO) repeaters have popped up over the last few months and are linked up together. One links Mich (slot 2) and one is linked to the world (slot 1). A friend loaned me a radio to play with and I'm loving it and now I'm looking at getting one myself.

Mike
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by kb8rvp View Post
I feel the same way... I want to play around with another mode. I live in Michigan and 5 DMR (MOTOTUBRO) repeaters have popped up over the last few months and are linked up together. One links Mich (slot 2) and one is linked to the world (slot 1). A friend loaned me a radio to play with and I'm loving it and now I'm looking at getting one myself.

Mike
Nice, mabey there`ll be a few around this state sometime in the feuture . The only other bit i`m wondering of is the ease of programming the radios, i`ve read on other DMR forums about it, but really haven`t got anything much as to how easy/hard to program it is. And that`s the only thing i`m wondering about right now (oh, forgot about that FCC thingy that the ARRL has filed re, mototurbo on the ham bands...still waiting on that `un too ). N9NRA
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Old 02-27-2012, 8:28 PM
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Default MotoTRBO on HAM

Lots of programming info online: DMR-MARC subscriber setup
Also codeplugs for radio programming: DCI - Codeplug Information
Lots of into online.

Mike
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Old 03-07-2012, 7:09 AM
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Default Things are changing

Hello,

I have another point I'd like to make about digital v. analog comms by hams. Many hams and radio buffs are great fans of Motorola equipment. It is common for people to commit to a brand such as Chevy or Ford, etc. Right now Anyone buying Motorola has options to program the radio for analog or digital, depending on what capability the model has. And on the analog side you usually have the option of band width. But after narrow banding is in place (I think 1/13?) on the commercial bands I don't think Motorola will be making models with today's wide-band ability. Given the following Motorola enjoys as these narrow band radios make it into ham service are we not going to see a new issue of - do we make repeaters narrow band and cause problems for all the radios in use now? Or do we leave things as they are and make the hams with new Motorola narrow band radios deal with low audio issues? And the problem will expand as narrow band repeaters filter into ham use.


I assume at first things may develop that hams with newer equipment will gather on repeaters with narrow band and those with older equipment will be on wide band repeaters. And maybe some repeaters will link and cross comms will work out.

But the other point I want to make is that as these followers of Motorola buy more Motorola radios we can expect to see more digital / analog radios in the hands of hams. Who knows..... Motorola may choose to reduce the number of narrow band analog only radios they offer and expand the models of analog / digital radios offered....... only increasing the number of hams with digital radios.

And one last thing, What is the situation with TDMA being a legal modulation on ham? I seem to remember ARRL planning to try to add that as a legal format? Now with a ham trbo coming out if it is submitted for type acceptance I assume we will see what the FCC says if the ARRL hasn't already dealt with the issue. Even the encryption issue might get a back door approval if the FCC approves the radio since I THINK the one coming out has encryption?


73's
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Last edited by tvnews; 03-07-2012 at 7:13 AM..
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Old 03-07-2012, 2:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvnews View Post
Hello,

I have another point I'd like to make about digital v. analog comms by hams. Many hams and radio buffs are great fans of Motorola equipment. It is common for people to commit to a brand such as Chevy or Ford, etc. Right now Anyone buying Motorola has options to program the radio for analog or digital, depending on what capability the model has. And on the analog side you usually have the option of band width. But after narrow banding is in place (I think 1/13?) on the commercial bands I don't think Motorola will be making models with today's wide-band ability. Given the following Motorola enjoys as these narrow band radios make it into ham service are we not going to see a new issue of - do we make repeaters narrow band and cause problems for all the radios in use now? Or do we leave things as they are and make the hams with new Motorola narrow band radios deal with low audio issues? And the problem will expand as narrow band repeaters filter into ham use.


I assume at first things may develop that hams with newer equipment will gather on repeaters with narrow band and those with older equipment will be on wide band repeaters. And maybe some repeaters will link and cross comms will work out.

But the other point I want to make is that as these followers of Motorola buy more Motorola radios we can expect to see more digital / analog radios in the hands of hams. Who knows..... Motorola may choose to reduce the number of narrow band analog only radios they offer and expand the models of analog / digital radios offered....... only increasing the number of hams with digital radios.

And one last thing, What is the situation with TDMA being a legal modulation on ham? I seem to remember ARRL planning to try to add that as a legal format? Now with a ham trbo coming out if it is submitted for type acceptance I assume we will see what the FCC says if the ARRL hasn't already dealt with the issue. Even the encryption issue might get a back door approval if the FCC approves the radio since I THINK the one coming out has encryption?


73's
Dean
WB2CMN
You have touched on something i`m wondering about too (the legality of TDMA/Mototurbo on the ham bands. I`ll probably be chatting with some ARRL folks when i do Dayton this year and see where this has got to, with any luck i`ll get some info that`ll work (read, good news ). Also, given that we are slowly moving to digital modes, i believe it`s time for some serious thought on modes like turbo and P25 as well as modes like DSTAR, and working out a way for all of these to "play nice" together, which i also believe will happen sometime soon. So, given all this, i`ll be watching this closely, and with some hopeful antisapation, just to see how this shakes out, and what crops up outta this. N9NRA
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Old 03-07-2012, 6:02 PM
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I wouldn't waste my time with the ARRL and I would think the FCC has far better things to do than waste their time chasing after hams running TRBO.

Use it, keep it unencrypted and enjoy.
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Old 03-07-2012, 7:32 PM
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I wouldn't waste my time with the ARRL and I would think the FCC has far better things to do than waste their time chasing after hams running TRBO.

Use it, keep it unencrypted and enjoy.
You may very well be right here, and i agree, use it, keeep it "open" (unencrypted), and enjoy the new mode on the ham bands. But that said, i`d want to find out a bit more before i take the plunge just to be safe, no sense putting my license at stake just for a new mode. But as i said, you may be right on this `un as far as the FCC is concerned. N9NRA
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:14 AM
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Our local repeater bit the dust over a period of about a year, to the point where every time we would key it up the thing would ID. Constantly. Fortunately, the repeater was originally purchased with Department Of Homeland Security funds, and the local EMA director authorized us to replace it along with a new antenna.

A MOTOTRBO is now in place and operating mixed-mode narrowband. The trustee said that the professional installers left it as narrowband and his thoughts are that eventually all repeaters will likely be forced to go narrowband anyway, because the manufacturers will likely phase out producing wide band equipment for hams when they can just modify their current production run of narrowband for the hams.

We must set our radios for narrowband or back off of the microphone now so we dont clip out of the repeater. There are about a half dozen of us who have done this and have no issues. Then, there are the others who refuse to simply change the memory channel for the repeater to narrowband, or back off of the microphone or refuse to learn about the narrowband capability of their gear and then complain because the repeater is "unusable"; this includes the Skywarn Liaison at the NWS office that we serve. He actually told the trustee and the EMA director that narrowband would cause the repeaters usable coverage area to be reduced! How ignorant is that?

Nobody in our area even has any digital FM equipment yet, but the mere fact that the repeater is Digital-Ready has caused the majority of hams in the area to soil their trousers and refuse to even use it.

My point is, if you are a trustee and considering MOTOTRBO, be careful how you deploy the unit - you might needlessly frighten the masses with new terms that they have never encountered before. Cavemen...

Last edited by iowabassplayer; 04-20-2012 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 04-20-2012, 1:26 PM
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Put me down as a caveman. I wouldn't waste my time with that mess when there are plenty of normal repeaters around. Some people jump to "new and and improved" just because of the "new" when "old and reliable" is more than capable and actually even superior.
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Old 04-20-2012, 3:58 PM
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In all honesty it really isnt a "mess". Its a simple matter of changing a setting for one memory channel.

Is it different than the vast majority of repeaters? Yes. Would this be considered "forward thinking" or planning for the future? Opinions vary I guess, but I certainly think so. I dont think he deserves the flack he is getting for it though.

I retract my "caveman" quip. A little over the top.

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