MotoTRBO on HAM

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radiomankc

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There is some rumblings that DMR (MotoTRBO) or TDMA FXE emission is illegal on the ham bands. I operate a 440MHz MotoTRBO repeater as well as many others operate around the world.

Anyone have some clarification on legality of FXE emissions on HAM bands? It is an open digital standard based on ETSI.
 

n1oty

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There is some rumblings that DMR (MotoTRBO) or TDMA FXE emission is illegal on the ham bands. I operate a 440MHz MotoTRBO repeater as well as many others operate around the world.

Anyone have some clarification on legality of FXE emissions on HAM bands? It is an open digital standard based on ETSI.

Mototrbo is fine on the ham bands.
 

RayAir

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As long as you're not running the built-in 40-bit encryption you're fine.
 

K4APR

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The people against MotoTrbo in the amateur spectrum are the same un-informed people that say ASTRO25/P25 is illegal. It's legal as long as there is NO ENCRYPTION enabled.
 

n1das

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The people against MotoTrbo in the amateur spectrum are the same un-informed people that say ASTRO25/P25 is illegal. It's legal as long as there is NO ENCRYPTION enabled.

I may be wrong but I think the only way encryption can be used legally is that the key must be published somehow and all stations using the mode must ID in the clear (i.e., without using encryption). Even so, it's enough of a hassle that it's best to not go there in the first place.

Just stick to clear (no encrypt) mode and you're fine.

I currently have iDAS/NEXEDGE and P25 for digital capabilities. I may eventually get MotoTRBO capability.
 

zz0468

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I may be wrong but I think the only way encryption can be used legally is that the key must be published somehow and all stations using the mode must ID in the clear (i.e., without using encryption). Even so, it's enough of a hassle that it's best to not go there in the first place.

There's an element of intent buried within part 97. One can't use encryption if the intent is to obscure communications, but that in itself does not prohibit encryption. In the case of MotoTRBO, one could argue about why one would bother to encrypt, published key or not. Clearly, the intent would be to obscure, if not from the FCC, at least from casual listeners. Legal? Probably not.

In the case of digital transmissions, like spread spectrum, encryption is a useful tool to maintain a constant rf spectrum mask regardless of the state of the 1's and 0's making up the payload on the system. This is a common technique used in digital microwave radios, for example, and would be quite legal under part 97, since the purpose is to provide a constant occupied bandwidth, not to obscure.
 

hcpholder

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I am a new ham and the only thing I have heard about NEXEDGE, P25 digital capabilities and MotoTRBO capabilities are to disable monitoring by conventional equipment (scanners). I can understand the need for the encription in these systems for law enforcement and business, but why ham? I kind of an old fart just getting into ham and I use a scanner a lot to locate repeaters and simplex frequencies. I guess this old dog needs to learn some new tricks! Thanks.
 

n5usr

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I am a new ham and the only thing I have heard about NEXEDGE, P25 digital capabilities and MotoTRBO capabilities are to disable monitoring by conventional equipment (scanners). I can understand the need for the encription in these systems for law enforcement and business, but why ham? I kind of an old fart just getting into ham and I use a scanner a lot to locate repeaters and simplex frequencies. I guess this old dog needs to learn some new tricks! Thanks.

You are equating two things that aren't equal. The purpose of *encryption* is to disable monitoring (whether with a scanner or even a commercial radio from the same vendor, if it hasn't been programmed with the encryption key).

Nexedge, P25 and MotoTRBO are simply digital protocols, just as D-Star (used only by amateurs) is. My scanner will listen to P25 just fine, and you can (with varying degrees of difficulty) purchase radios that support all of them, program the relevant frequencies, and listen in. The reasons an agency would select digital over analog vary, I suspect it's often just a salesman doing his job...

There are some in ham radio who feel if they can't use existing gear they already own then it isn't "allowed". I would tend to side with them as far as "spirit of the law" if it was something with limited availability and/or very high price (say, the SCC modems used for WinLink*, or a closely held protocol like ProVoice) but in these cases the radios aren't hard to come by and aren't all that expensive either. Maybe not commodity VHF FM transceiver cheap, but still not thousands of dollars.

Another hangup for some is that the protocols can't be implemented completely in software by anyone who wants to (and has the ability). This goes even for D-Star, it and a few other protocols are "open spec" but that spec calls for the use of a patented vocoder. The big kahuna of vocoders right now is DVSI, D-Star uses their AMBE vocoder and P25 uses the IMBE vocoder. DVSI absolutely refuses to provide specs to implement their algorithm, and for all practical purposes will only sell a chip to implement it. However, they'll sell to anyone and the price is reasonable - at least the AMBE chip used by D-Star, haven't checked on IMBE. (I don't know what vocoders other protocols use, haven't looked into them to that level.)

In the end, a case could also be made - why use digital at all on ham radio? In many areas even FM is dead, if some of the few users go digital you're fragmenting an already small user base. But it is, after all, a hobby. For some people, experimenting with and using different modes is fun. That's largely why I bothered to get into D-Star at all, and I may eventually consider a P25 radio as there are a few others in my area who like to use it.


* - WinLink has a whole other problem associated with it as well. As I understand it, the HF email for boaters issue is flat-out illegal as currently implemented, since they are using encryption. Even if I shell out the bucks for an SCC modem, I'm still not going to be able to "eavesdrop" on what is being passed through that system.
 

texasemt13

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I have used an amateur repeteater in Austin that is mixed mode P25/analog. 99% of the analog users have no clue the repeater is mixed mode and allows P25 digital signals. When they hear people using the repeater in P25, and don't have tone squelch on, they try to key up in the middle of our P25 QSO and complain about "intermod" or "encryption" like they know what's going on. Until one of the P25 users switches to analog and tells them that it's a mixed mode repeater most keep on yapping about the two complaints mentioned above, clueless to the cause.

Which brings me to my main point, most old hams have no clue that amateur digital voice comms are on the rise (unless they've happened to have heard of D-Star because they read through the ICOM section of AES or MFJ magazines), so when they do happen upon a frequency that unsquelches with an annoying buzz, they're going to begin speculating about all sorts of crap that has no point/bearing/meaning. It just takes a few decades to get the word out to this community because so many people are only active hams during emergencies or Field Days.

Just my .02.

I love using P25. I'd like to use D-Star at some point and many of these other digital voice modes out there.
 

tbiggums

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I've never really played with a Motorola TRBO radio before, so maybe someone that knows more about them can chime in on this...

As I understand it, there's not such thing as a "monitor mode" that TRBO radios can be put in to on a digital channel. So, if someone has a TRBO ham repeater, all of the radios using it have to be programmed to the correct timeslot, color code, and talkgroup (or whatever they call it) to hear anything--even with no encryption. How can someone be an effective control operator and monitor all repeater activity if the TRBO radios don't really support this? That is, people can program radios to use a random combination of timeslot, color code, and talkgroup and effectively have a fair amount of privacy?

Can the TRBO repeaters be programmed to restrict or prohibit communications on certian timeslots, color codes, and talkgroups?

Or even on a simplex frequency... If two stations are communicating via TRBO, am I correct in the understanding that there's no way of hearing or communicating with them unless you can determine and program your TRBO radio to the matching color code and talkgroup (don't think the timeslot is relevant for simplex) that they're using?

Since there are thousands and thousands of possible talkgroup and color code combinations, and no "monitor button" on the TRBO radio, that sure seems to function like encryption, even though it really isn't...

I guess now there's the freeware DSD decoder, and Ian Wraith's Java utility, but I haven't played with those yet...
 

canav844

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There is some rumblings that DMR (MotoTRBO) or TDMA FXE emission is illegal on the ham bands. I operate a 440MHz MotoTRBO repeater as well as many others operate around the world.

Anyone have some clarification on legality of FXE emissions on HAM bands? It is an open digital standard based on ETSI.
It is legal. It is a published standard, you can google and find much more in depth detail, which I'd suggest doing so that you know what you're doing is legal as far as FCC Part 97 is concerned and just why it is and how to show someone that it is ok; it's always better than getting legal advice from an internet forum. No, you may not enable encryption to obscure the meaning, but using digital or uncommon modes is not encryption.

Encryption may be used on the ham bands, if you do anything with HSMM in the 2.4ghz range that is shared with a plethora of part 15 non HAM users you'll understand the need for such uses to prevent otherwise unknowing nonHAMs from triggering unlicensed communication using HAM equipment (some do modify routers for high power speed networks but the part15 cert would be gone and they'd be HAM only transmissions with limits as to what can be transmitted at that point). The intent of the encryption is what it boils down to.

Yet even then, MotoTRBO is not a type of encryption but just a digital mode. FM wasn't illegal when all folks had was AM, SSB wasn't illegal when it was new and most were still using AM, DSTAR, P25, PSK, AX.25 and at least a dozen other digital modes are not encryption, they're just new modes. And when it comes to new modes, one must also remember that the HAM bands are for more than just rag chewing, but also a place for radio amateurs who have proven themselves to have a technical understanding to experiment with new types and applications for radios. So not only is experimenting with new modes something we can do, but it also something we should be doing, collectively it's not like I'm saying everyone has to go get (this is RR and I'm sure someone would jump on me for not specifying), and taking radios from other services and employing them for HAM use is just a small part of that.

If your scanner doesn't receive the signal, that doesn't mean that it's encrypted, while I'm sure that's a page out of the motorola sales book to push the P25 to all these agencies, I remember when I had officers telling me that being trunked meant they were encrypted. Most scanners don't pick up 80meters or 10ghz though or show the ID of a 440 ATV signal or catch a spread spectrum transmission, does that mean it's encrypted? Heck no. There's a lot more to the amateur bands and radio than most scanners will handle.

Digital when FM is dead, well I live in an area where I could be one of 5 if not the only ham operating above 50mhz aside from a weekly net, having linked FM repeaters and digital modes that are interconnecting repeaters are making regular communications possible; while I may have an extra class license I'm in an apartment situation (strict lease and new managers moved in next door limiting any balcony solution with no attic) where HF antennas are extremely difficult and cost prohibitive while still being sub par, so in the meantime learning using and experimenting with digital modes is offering me the chance to stay active with a large audience of HAMs from around the world, rather than just going blue in the face calling CQ on 2m. There's no magic mode but everybody has their niche, and I'm all for someone finding that.
 

KD4BBM

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No, it's not legal. And not because it's digital. And it's nothing related to encryption. It's because the user radios use single slot TDMA, which is not a permitted emission under Part 97.307. Repeaters are fine, but technically, every user is breaking the law. That's why the ARRL is trying to change the law to get this fixed. FCC Seeking Comments on ARRL Petition Regarding TDMA

So yes, there is some truth to the reports that it's not legal. Hopefully this will be easily fixed. But P25 IS legal and used by far more public safety agencies that MotoTRBO. That's where I'm investing.

Ray, KD4BBM
 

zz0468

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Aside from the novelty of running some digital mode, what are the reasons people are deploying P25 and Mototrbo in the ham bands? Just curious is all...
 

mm

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The digital move today is along the lines of when hams moved from AM to SSB in the late 50's early 60's.

It's Spectrally efficient, IE narrowband emissions are what everyone is moving to and I know the FCC wants everyone to move to more efficient narrower band emissions such as TDMA so I don't know why the FCC hasn't acted on the TRBO legalities yet.

Aside from all the contoversary about perceived audio qty, you can do a lot more with digital, for instance in P25 there is the capability of sending text messages which is good during emergency comms.

I know some people will say that we already have packet and its text capabilities and we don't need anything like this but I'm not even going to touch that subject.

Face it digital comms are not going to go away, back in the 60's there were die hard Old timers who siad SSB would never catch on and even refused to use it.

Digital voice is just another technology just like SDR radios which some people hope will spark up some interest in a stagnant hobby.
 

mancow

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Range is a big one.

I would often try to get into a uhf repeater 60+ miles out where a lot of friends would hang out and BS. I could use analog and be scratchy and annoying or switch to digital P25 (It is a Quantar) and be perfect copy every time.




Aside from the novelty of running some digital mode, what are the reasons people are deploying P25 and Mototrbo in the ham bands? Just curious is all...
 

zz0468

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Range is a big one.

I would often try to get into a uhf repeater 60+ miles out where a lot of friends would hang out and BS. I could use analog and be scratchy and annoying or switch to digital P25 (It is a Quantar) and be perfect copy every time.

Interesting. Is it a dual mode repeater, or were you comparing two repeaters at the same site?
 

zz0468

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The digital move today is along the lines of when hams moved from AM to SSB in the late 50's early 60's.

There's always room for experimentation and innovation. I currently don't see the same motivations to drive amateurs toward digital, however.

It's Spectrally efficient, IE narrowband emissions are what everyone is moving to and I know the FCC wants everyone to move to more efficient narrower band emissions such as TDMA so I don't know why the FCC hasn't acted on the TRBO legalities yet.

The FCC isn't going to move toward narrowbanding for amateur operations anytime soon. We're not under the same spectrum pressures that Part 90 users are, and our channelization plans are voluntary, not mandated.

Aside from all the contoversary about perceived audio qty, you can do a lot more with digital, for instance in P25 there is the capability of sending text messages which is good during emergency comms.

Neat stuff, to be sure. I'm one of those who's bothered by the audio quality, though. I'm finding that in marginal signal locations and high ambient noise, intelligibility is lost, and a lot of voice recognition is lost even in good signal conditions. I'm all for advancing the state of the art, but I'm finding that P25 is severely lacking in audio quality, so I'm having a hard time buying off on it as an improvement.

I know some people will say that we already have packet and its text capabilities and we don't need anything like this but I'm not even going to touch that subject.

I will. Packet is a 25 year old technology. It's pretty thoroughly entrenched.

Face it digital comms are not going to go away, back in the 60's there were die hard Old timers who siad SSB would never catch on and even refused to use it.

This is true, digital is not going away. And people need to try it out, I'm just curious what is actually motivating people to give it a go. It's going to be a long time before it's the dominant mode for repeater operations, and there are some operations that will probably never go to digital, since one of the goals is superior audio quality. Different strokes, etc.

Digital voice is just another technology just like SDR radios which some people hope will spark up some interest in a stagnant hobby.

Ok... well, that answered some of my questions. Thanks! =)
 

N4KVE

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Range is a big one.

I would often try to get into a uhf repeater 60+ miles out where a lot of friends would hang out and BS. I could use analog and be scratchy and annoying or switch to digital P25 (It is a Quantar) and be perfect copy every time.
While this is true, at some point the signal gets so poor that the digital signal is gone, but a noisy analog signal still works. I have several P25 radios, & I'm in no rush to get a TRBO radio, while all my pals in Miami are. GARY N4KVE
 

JRayfield

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Are you saying that this is what you've experienced with P25 versus analog?

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
WØPM

While this is true, at some point the signal gets so poor that the digital signal is gone, but a noisy analog signal still works. I have several P25 radios, & I'm in no rush to get a TRBO radio, while all my pals in Miami are. GARY N4KVE
 
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