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Digital Voice for Amateur Use Discuss use of digital voice technologies on the amateur radio bands. This is to include technologies such as VoIP, P25, DMR/TRBO, NXDN, D-STAR, etc.

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2012, 6:47 AM
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Default Yaesu FT1D (C4FM digital)

No information on what vocoder it's using.....

No price or launch information...

From interceptradio


Quote:
FT1D
Price undecided
Silver color
144/430MHz5W
The end of March or in the shortest
■ Compatible with dual communication mode analog / digital
■ common with the option VX8G
■ APRS function
■ featured wide-band receiver
■ Built-in AM bar antenna capable of receiving AM / FM
■ listening quietly vibrator function, valid at large noise!
■ Equipped with GPS logger
Digital-related
■ GSM (group message function)
Send and receive messages in katakana / up to 80 characters in the alphabet
of about 0.15 seconds
■ Snapshot Snapshot (image data transfer)
In the display screen of the machine about 20 seconds Handy time display
can not be sent in digital mode] [FDMA. Set (320 240) QVGA size
■ Convenient, etc. / clone image data storage backup / the contents of
memory equipped with a micro SD card slot
■ Connecting the camera microphone (terminal MiniUSB) USB data, the
connection between an external device such as a PC. Useful, for example, a
firmware update.
■ Easy! E20 support (Itsuo / Easy to Operation)
Redesigned the system operation as easy to use, multi-functional. Enables
one-touch operation of frequently used functions
The one-touch button digital mode in the D
Wires X corresponding key button key, but also what features a digital
future
GM GSM (group message) key
■ E-GPS (GPS data transmission feature easy)
GPS data can be exchanged easily with fellow ham. One-touch display at the
same time as the direction and distance of transmission.
Word from CQ ohm
Thank you for waiting. I came out feature data!
The basic dual 144/430MHz digital machine. APRS and broadband reception
function has been firmly attached.
Appearance is similar to VX-8G. The options are kind of VX-8G is available.
Comments about the new features is digital, and then to check the details
from a little more.
Price is more, aiming to spread the first "put a price quite strategic! I
mean "and.
If price is not much different with the per VX-8D, or will not sell it to explode.
Still, the details and the software is to be modified.

Questions or requests to: manufacturer is in the facebook comment at the
reception.
Together, we have to tell Mr. manufacturers.
Please feel free to please.
Click here for product page
I tried to summarize it came in FT1D data.

**From another translated website***
> FT1D
> Price undecided
> Silver color
> 144/430MHz5W
> The end of March or in the shortest
> [Function] Bulletin
> ■ Compatible with dual communication mode analog / digital
> ■ common with the option VX8G
> ■ APRS function
> ■ featured wide-band receiver
> ■ Built-in AM bar antenna capable of receiving AM / FM
> ■ listening quietly vibrator function, valid at large noise!
> ■ Equipped with GPS logger
> Digital-related
> ■ GSM (group message function)
> Send and receive messages in katakana / up to 80 characters in the alphabet
> of about 0.15 seconds
> ■ Snapshot Snapshot (image data transfer)
> In the display screen of the machine about 20 seconds Handy time display
> can not be sent in digital mode] [FDMA. Set (320 240) QVGA size
> ■ Convenient, etc. / clone image data storage backup / the contents of
> memory equipped with a micro SD card slot
> ■ Connecting the camera microphone (terminal MiniUSB) USB data, the
> connection between an external device such as a PC. Useful, for example, a
> firmware update.
> ■ Easy! E20 support (Itsuo / Easy to Operation)
> Redesigned the system operation as easy to use, multi-functional. Enables
> one-touch operation of frequently used functions
> The one-touch button digital mode in the D
> Wires X corresponding key button key, but also what features a digital
> future
> GM GSM (group message) key
> ■ E-GPS (GPS data transmission feature easy)
> GPS data can be exchanged easily with fellow ham. One-touch display at the
> same time as the direction and distance of transmission.
> Word from CQ [ohm]
> Thank you for waiting. I came out feature data!
> The basic dual 144/430MHz digital machine. APRS and broadband reception
> function has been firmly attached.
> Appearance is similar to the VX-8G. The options are kind of VX-8G is
> available.
> Comments about the new features is digital, and then to check the details
> from a little more.
> Price is more, aiming to spread the first "put a price quite strategic! I
> mean "and.
> If price is not much different with the per VX-8D, or will not sell it to
> explode.
>
> Still, the details and the software is to be modified.
> Questions or requests to: manufacturer is in the facebook comment at the
> reception.
> Together, we have to tell Mr. manufacturers.
> Please feel free to please.
>
> Supplemental data transfer function and image (snapshot) Snapshot
> You can take a snapshot using the MH-85A11U the option to transfer image
> data.
> The image size is, on the assumption that a simplified use to go to
> destinations such as the landmark for confirmation and position, has been
> set to 320 240 minimum required. (※ machine handy image display can not
> be because the size of the display is small)
> After the shooting, is useful when you want to edit the image data from the
> GPS data is recorded at the same time shooting date and time. Transmission
> time is about 20 seconds in CDMA digital mode.
> It can be used not worry about the memory capacity of your body of data
> from are stored in the SD card, you can use the software for video editing
> transfer the data to the PC later data format so JPEG general data It is
> also possible to edit.
> I can not check the images and make sure the body is unfortunate, the body
> is from (this is the possible connection of the camera microphone, a
> connection with an external device such as a PC) has a USB port data, for
> example, notes I feel like I will be can also connect personal computers
> and other equipment and I say ...... ...... ...... baz. In any case, so I
> can enjoy a variety of is!




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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2012, 9:26 AM
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Default Dmr

I am pretty certain that this will be ETSI 102 tier 2 compatible in the ham bands.

The FT1D FDMA version will not be TDMA capable, so it will be DMR in a 12.5 kHz channel in digital mode.

Looks like the messaging/GPS functions are enabled as well as image/data transfer modes as seen in commercial DMR tier 2 radios.

You can be quite sure the frequency mask will be locked down for NO OUT OF BAND TX, and there is probably some neutering of the DMR access so it cannot be used in the US on Part 90 systems.

Embedded GPS is a plus and an internal TNC as well if it is truly APRS capable.

Let's see the price point and whether it is disruptive enough to spur investments by stingy hams who think all radios should be under $100 - LOL

I am pretty sure this will not be a P25 CAI radio, just DMR/Analog with no TDMA.

No proof, just intuition here.

Craig
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Last edited by kv5e; 04-25-2012 at 9:27 AM.. Reason: word smything
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:28 AM
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Default

I agree. Single frequency DMR with no timeslotting.

Unfortunately most people have assumed it will be P25.

I don't believe Yaesu would bring out two different standards.

I'm assuming (big mistake), that the timeslotted DMR radio will be backwards compatible with the non-timeslotted radio.

Hopefully they have the infrastructure ready to support both radios when they release it.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:45 AM
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Default FT1D Vocoder

I think most, if not all, DMR implementations are using AMBE+ so I imagine the same vocoder will be used.
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Old 04-26-2012, 2:15 PM
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Default $$$ ft-1d $$$

Currency coversion from Yen to US Dollar is at $~780.00 without marketing tweaks for US market.

I don't see this coming in at less than ~$600 with a bare bones charger and antenna.

Maybe some (cough cough, oh Ray Novak, cough) new promotions at Dayton might show up.

4FSK transceiver ASICS are pretty available now.....I know there's some Tier 1 DMR radios from PRC starting to be sold in ITU Region 1&3. Who knows what price compression is possible, although the Ham Market only radios without FCC approval for Part 90 might not see the numbers like Wouxun and other PRC manufacturers have made in market penetration.

Hytera has a nice Part 90 single band full featured DMR 2/3 with GPS and color/display at ~$700,



Craig
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Old 04-26-2012, 8:58 PM
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If this radio truly meets the DMR standard, then it will be TDMA (2-slot). And it will be compatible with MOTOTRBO.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Quote:
Originally Posted by kv5e View Post
I am pretty certain that this will be ETSI 102 tier 2 compatible in the ham bands.

The FT1D FDMA version will not be TDMA capable, so it will be DMR in a 12.5 kHz channel in digital mode.

Looks like the messaging/GPS functions are enabled as well as image/data transfer modes as seen in commercial DMR tier 2 radios.

You can be quite sure the frequency mask will be locked down for NO OUT OF BAND TX, and there is probably some neutering of the DMR access so it cannot be used in the US on Part 90 systems.

Embedded GPS is a plus and an internal TNC as well if it is truly APRS capable.

Let's see the price point and whether it is disruptive enough to spur investments by stingy hams who think all radios should be under $100 - LOL

I am pretty sure this will not be a P25 CAI radio, just DMR/Analog with no TDMA.

No proof, just intuition here.

Craig
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Old 04-27-2012, 7:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRayfield View Post
If this radio truly meets the DMR standard, then it will be TDMA (2-slot). And it will be compatible with MOTOTRBO.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
Time will tell if my speculation is true. NO reason a single slot radio cannot talk to others, but it is technically not a full implementation of Tier 2/3 then.

If it is a one-off 4FSK air interface like the then it will have trouble.

I am basing my guess upon Yaesu's reference to DMARC in their "bollocks" white paper.

Craig
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Old 04-27-2012, 8:56 AM
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Are you talking about simplex mode, when you refer to "single slot"?

I agree that since Yaesu referenced DMARC, that it's likely that they will come out with a DMR-compatible radio.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kv5e View Post
Time will tell if my speculation is true. NO reason a single slot radio cannot talk to others, but it is technically not a full implementation of Tier 2/3 then.

If it is a one-off 4FSK air interface like the then it will have trouble.

I am basing my guess upon Yaesu's reference to DMARC in their "bollocks" white paper.

Craig
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Old 04-27-2012, 9:05 AM
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John,

This is all speculation so they might be offering a single slot repeater system or who knows what.

They could be still working on TDMA on this device and flash upgrading later.....who knows.

I guess we will find out at Dayton.

If this is a 4 FSK DVOA type offering like the Unication U3, then it is a mistake on their part.

I have a question for you.

Have you implemented any designs in the mountain areas where propagation delays for TDMA start creating challenges?

I would be interested in your observations on this if you have.

Thanks in advance,

Craig
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Old 04-27-2012, 9:15 PM
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Default Yeasu FT1-D....

John, Criag..
With this popping up, why was the original broucher pulled???

My thought, the divorce from Mother M. (my opinion)


John, check your email, sent you a private note....


Evans F. Mitchell
KD4EFM / WQOD 582
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Old 04-28-2012, 6:15 AM
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Default Emissions?

Evans,

I wondered if that was the reason they pulled the VXD-720 myself. Also, is it possible that Yaesu is waiting on the ARRL petition on 7K6FXE and 7K6FXD emissions to be added to the list of permitted emissions for the ARS.

I don't think the FCC cares if hams use "uncovered" DMR, but the permitted list does not include TDMA so maybe it is a legal point with them.

I have searched the OET files and found nothing there either.

The more DV the better in my book. More experimentation and learning is what I like about this hobby!

Craig
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:27 PM
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The VXD series of DMR products was/is not a 'Yaesu' product, it is a 'Vertex Standard' product. Yaesu has nothing to do with 'Vertex Standard', now. Vertex Standard is totally, 100%, Motorola-owned, now. So it makes sense that the VXD series of products will not be on the Yaesu website.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kd4efm View Post
John, Criag..
With this popping up, why was the original broucher pulled???

My thought, the divorce from Mother M. (my opinion)


John, check your email, sent you a private note....


Evans F. Mitchell
KD4EFM / WQOD 582
Welcome to the Florida D-Star information website... — Florida D-Star Information
P25/D-Star/NXDN Digital HAM RADIO
Product Support and Programmer

I.T.T. Tech Graduate AAS EET 91
20+ yrs 2-Way Radio Tech. Experience
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Old 04-28-2012, 1:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRayfield View Post
The VXD series of DMR products was/is not a 'Yaesu' product, it is a 'Vertex Standard' product. Yaesu has nothing to do with 'Vertex Standard', now. Vertex Standard is totally, 100%, Motorola-owned, now. So it makes sense that the VXD series of products will not be on the Yaesu website.kicked to the curb by motorola.


John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM



John you obviously did not know that yaesu displayed the vxd series on the amateur pages prior to getting kicked to the curb
craig
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Last edited by kv5e; 04-28-2012 at 1:40 PM..
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Old 04-28-2012, 5:04 PM
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That's make sense, since "Yaesu" still owned 20% of Vertex Standard. Once that arrangement ended, I can see why they wouldn't have it here.

Not sure what you mean by "kicked to the curb". Sounds like maybe you've got some kind of 'gripe' against Motorola?

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Quote:
Originally Posted by kv5e View Post
John you obviously did not know that yaesu displayed the vxd series on the amateur pages prior to getting kicked to the curb
craig
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Old 05-01-2012, 2:19 PM
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Default Yaesu FT1D (C4FM Digital)

I was just reviewing the Yaesu brochure on-line again. Specifically, where it states:

".....At this point in time, Vertex Standard believes the C4FM (4-level FSK). FDMA or TDMA are the most suitable selections for Amateur radio applications. In early 2012, we will release a C4FM (4-level FSK) FDMA Handy-Talky and a Mobile transceiver into the Amateur market....."

I am actually more interested in a mobile than an HT, by any chance does anybody happen to know if it will be a Handy-Talky only at first? It sort of seems like that is what Yaesu has done in the past.
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Old 05-01-2012, 7:52 PM
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Intresting read here folks . I`ll be waiting patiently for Dayton to see just what comes off with this, my hope is this, personally i`d like to see some form of mototurbo, just so i could play with it a bit more than i got to last year . However, as has already been mentioned, i bet Yeasu is waiting on the ARRL filing with the FCC yet, just to see where that ends up going, reading what was in the original post was kinda confusing, but i have the feeling we`ll be seeing more info at Dayton. Keep your fingers crossed folks, and keep watchin`, it could get intresting. N9NRA
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:20 PM
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will be shown this friday at Dayton hamvention


Quote:
Originally Posted by jparks29 View Post
No information on what vocoder it's using.....

No price or launch information...

From interceptradio








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Old 05-19-2012, 3:16 PM
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Default tested it

Just back from yaesu booth tested 2 hts. Audio quality was good. brochure says 12.5khz c4fm fdma. Yaesu staff suggested there would be a later version of this radio that would be dmr compatible but not the initial version.
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Old 05-21-2012, 2:10 PM
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Default Upon further research

I've taken the time to educate myself a bit on the various digital two-way standards floating about.
Upon reflection with this data and the provided yaesu literature from Hamvention,
It sounds like the digital HT's I used are more angled to the NXDN flavor of digital rather than DMR;
the spec given for the HT's of C4FM and 12.5khz FDMA is consistent with NXDN, but is insufficient to show compatibility.

I'd take what I wrote previously about the yaesu's rep saying that there was DMR in its future, as he appeared to be not very enlightened about his products. (I had to figure out myself how to place
both units into digital mode, which turned out to be as simple as hitting a button with an italicized D).

Another reason to angle to the NXDN flavor of digital is potentially cost, while I know that DMR radios are coming down to more reasonble levels, it appears you can get by, from my research, with
a cheaper receiver (e.g. frequency stability of 2.5ppm vs .5 ppm needed for the TDMA of DMR). The VOCODER the FT1D uses is not specified in the product factsheet I received.

As a follow on to my above post I would add that the audio between HT's was very good to
my ears, despite being in a very noisy environment (a crowded arena). This suggests use
of an advanced vocoder.

Last edited by kb5udf; 05-21-2012 at 2:13 PM.. Reason: addtl info
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Old 05-21-2012, 2:51 PM
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Thanks for the additional post.

FDMA is just a term to describe channelization. Users are divided by orthogonal frequencies or channels.
Analog repeaters are FDMA is all honesty.

TDMA or time division multiple access uses channel shared by users in the time domain or "slots". This technique requires a synchronization signal of some type or a disciplined time base. Precision timing data to keep users separated is most easliy done from the BTS with sync bursts transmitted to the user radios.

C4FM is term used originally by /\/\ for 4 FSK transmissions with a constant envelope. This modulation type can utilize Class C amplification which reduces the implementation costs. IMHO C4FM just means that the four level modulation has no amplitude component conveying information.

Four level modulation can also have amplitude modulation as in the case of phase II Project 25 where the amplification must have means of accurately controlling the amplitude envelope of the transmitted waveforms.

Yaesu lists the symbol rate as 9600 bps (control plane included) so that is going to take up 12.5 kHz channels unlike NXDN which fits in 6.25 kHz channels.

The TDMA is needed for DMR/P25 to meet the Part 90 narrowbanding requirements which state that the bandwidth and symbol rates needed for digital emission compliance are 4800 bps in a 6.25 kHz channel at a later date.

DMR and Project 25 phase II gets there by having two communications paths in a 9600 bps channel at 12.5 kHz occupied bandwidth.

TDMA can have some significant challenges once propagation delay becomes long enough to create synchronization problems. This has been an issue from the IS-136 days until today.

Craig
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Last edited by kv5e; 05-21-2012 at 2:55 PM..
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