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Digital Voice for Amateur Use Discuss use of digital voice technologies on the amateur radio bands. This is to include technologies such as VoIP, P25, DMR/TRBO, NXDN, D-STAR, etc.

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2014, 4:15 PM
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I don't know what Jerry will ultimately do but he's said many times that the audio in the 700s are set perfectly and do not need changing.

As he put it the problem lies with others whose radios are set incorrectly and he sees no reason to make his radios be set incorrectly to make those using radios improperly happy.

With that said there have been a lot of people complaining about the audio and I know he put up a schematic for changing a mic's audio on the group. Whether he'll actually mess with the internals is up for debate.

Interesting side comment though is that on the M group itself it was finally admitted that all this time the CS700s have been set correctly and its a Motorola and Motorola users problem not a Connect Systems radio problem.

I guess we'll find out soon enough though. The FW upgrade is supposed to be here this month.
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Old 08-05-2014, 4:30 PM
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Ok let's put this to rest. I have an 8400 system that is on the air. The only radios with audio problems are cs700's because you can only get proper deviation if you stick the radio against your right cheek and talk across the mic. All other radios on my system have been upgraded to newer than first gen firmware and have 0 AGC issues. There is definitely a low audio problem with the 700's if you do NOT use the method I described. ( when you have to turn the volume to 100% to hear a cs700, there is definitely an issue.) When I told Jerry that there was an issue, he emailed me and the group the correction for the hand mic. (So that tells us that it's a hardware issue, not software. Makes sense why folks using Motorola mics sound good)

The problem with loud audio on dmr is totally related to bootleg copies of CPS and not having the corrected firmware. It's out there but folks don't want to upgrade and lose their ability to use their bootleg Software.
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Old 08-05-2014, 4:36 PM
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We all set our mike gain as per the DMR-MARC website. The problem is that different radios have different mike gain. Suppose I'm talking to just 1 guy, & he has the CS700. I turn up my volume control, & he sounds great. These radios do have good tx audio. Everything is fine until a XPR6550 with the mike gain set per the Moto site joins the conversation. Now the speaker in the radio bursts into flames, as he's way too loud. OTOH, I could be having a conversation with 3 6550's, & all is perfect until the 700 joins in, & nobody can hear him. I can tell you the 30 guys with Moto radios are not going to drop their mike gain to be equal to the 2 700's on our system. It's up to those 2 700's to bump up their audio to equal the Moto radios who are in the majority, & were there first. Hopefully, the new fw will allow this. Also everyone on our system had their radios programmed with genuine CPS, & has FW no older than 1 year. Many of the users work for 2 way shops, so they have legit CPS, & they program the radios for those who don't have CPS. But again, the CS700 has beautiful tx audio as long as they're the only radio on the repeater. Just not loud enough.
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Old 08-05-2014, 4:44 PM
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Jerry said no... It does already have AGC on, and it should stay on, dmr works better with audio within a specific range. Adjusting mic gain is NOT the way to fix this, Getting the holdouts to update their radios and get cs 700's to either use an external motorola mic, the corrected cs mic or close talk it like I described with stop the volume jockeying. On the big network, I have to ride the volume all the time, on my system I never touch the volume...
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Old 08-05-2014, 4:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOONBOOTS View Post
We all set our mike gain as per the DMR-MARC website. The problem is that different radios have different mike gain. Suppose I'm talking to just 1 guy, & he has the CS700. I turn up my volume control, & he sounds great. These radios do have good tx audio. Everything is fine until a XPR6550 with the mike gain set per the Moto site joins the conversation. Now the speaker in the radio bursts into flames, as he's way too loud. OTOH, I could be having a conversation with 3 6550's, & all is perfect until the 700 joins in, & nobody can hear him. I can tell you the 30 guys with Moto radios are not going to drop their mike gain to be equal to the 2 700's on our system. It's up to those 2 700's to bump up their audio to equal the Moto radios who are in the majority, & were there first. Hopefully, the new fw will allow this. Also everyone on our system had their radios programmed with genuine CPS, & has FW no older than 1 year. Many of the users work for 2 way shops, so they have legit CPS, & they program the radios for those who don't have CPS. But again, the CS700 has beautiful tx audio as long as they're the only radio on the repeater. Just not loud enough.
Try updating the radios, turn AGC back on and be done with it. Get a club to go in on the software and you will always have latest and greatest.
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Old 08-05-2014, 4:50 PM
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This is what the DMR-MARC site suggests for tx audio. GARY N4KVE

Audio Calibration - IMPORTANT!


By default, Motorola radios are shipped with AGC enabled. Motorola radios seem to respond better on our network with AGC turned off. Audio on the DMR-MARC network can sound purely awesome if our radios are programmed correctly or for some it can be piercingly loud if we use the default settings. It's not necessarily the radio's fault. These radios are meant to be used from quiet school administrator offices to loud mining compounds. So the radios must be flexible and the audio settings can be complicated to get just right.

Please set your radio's audio amplitudes according to the following table as a starting point for our amateur network. You can learn more about why this is so important from DCI.

If you visit the online VU-meter at NorCal DMR you will find a neat way to optimize your audio gain levels to sound great on the DMR-MARC network. We recommend EACH and EVERY user of the network to optimize their audio with this fine tool. Everyone uses their mic differently. If you hear someone on the air with loud audio, please give them a friendly reminder that we have these tools available. They probably don't even realize their audio is hot!
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Old 08-05-2014, 5:04 PM
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I know and it's interesting that it works perfectly fine on commercial networks, and works perfectly fine on my 8400 with all the subscriber radios updated...

Even Mike. AA9VI stated that AGC isn't broken and motorola is not telling anyone to turn off AGC. So why would DMR Marc? For the same reason it's on the website not to upgrade the firmware (so you don't lose 25khz). Of course if you had access to legit software, it wouldn't be an issue at all (just like on the commercial systems and on my 8400).
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Old 08-05-2014, 5:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8NQP View Post
I know and it's interesting that it works perfectly fine on commercial networks, and works perfectly fine on my 8400 with all the subscriber radios updated...

Even Mike. AA9VI stated that AGC isn't broken and motorola is not telling anyone to turn off AGC. So why would DMR Marc? For the same reason it's on the website not to upgrade the firmware (so you don't lose 25khz). Of course if you had access to legit software, it wouldn't be an issue at all (just like on the commercial systems and on my 8400).
Nice try, but the firmware matrix states 1.09.10 as the minimum permitted for the XPR4550, DM3601, XPR6550 and DP3601. Other models have different minimum firmware versions. I don't think it's as much a matter of people having "bootleg" CPS as it is a lot of folks don't feel the need to update it for each version that comes out.
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Old 08-05-2014, 5:20 PM
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And that would be incorrect. It's been proven OVER and OVER that the old firmware doesn't work well with AGC. Of course you can believe whatever you want. I actually own a repeater and am speaking from actual experience not quoting a website.

Feel free to do what you want, but if you show up on our system you will be asked to update to the working firmware or not use the repeater.
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Old 08-05-2014, 5:23 PM
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1.09.10 is not old fw. It's not from last week, but it's not old.
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Old 08-05-2014, 5:29 PM
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Directly quoted from dmr Marc....

"ADVISORY! If you upgrade an XPR4550 or XPR6550 past R01.09.10, you will need a 25 kHz entitlement key for wideband 25 kHz analog channels. Therefore, we recommend R01.09.10 and CPS version 8 for programming those units."

But the entitlement key is free. They are at the very least promoting using OLD firmware and software to maintain 25khz (which if you are current or your club is current, isn't an issue) or playing wink wink nudge nudge with the fact that there are a LOT of folks running software they "found" on the internet.

Meanwhile, upgrading results in good audio, improved performance and doesn't make you look like a software pirate...
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Old 08-05-2014, 5:52 PM
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Old 08-05-2014, 10:30 PM
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The only reason Motorola switched to making folks get an "free entitlement key" for 25 kHz wideband can be summed up in a single word: marketing.
They want to know how many users are still on analog systems and the only way they can properly track that now is by creating a special firmware "update" that removes it but you can get it back for "free" by registering for that entitlement key. Now they know they have a customer still using analog. They can then send this info down to their dealers and say "hey, these guys are still on analog why aren't you selling them digital upgrades yet? Why are you letting money walk out the door?"
You see, Motorola really wants to push those digital upgrades. They're a hardware company. If they don't sell enough hardware in a given year then management isn't happy.

Say what you will about the CS radios from Jerry, at least he doesn't make you pay $250+ for the programming software, $70+ for a programming cable, or pull marketing tricks with the firmware like Motorola does.
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by iball View Post

Say what you will about the CS radios from Jerry, at least he doesn't make you pay $250+ for the programming software, $70+ for a programming cable, or pull marketing tricks with the firmware like Motorola does.
I agree 1000%. Like I said before, if these 700 radios were out 2 years ago, I would own 1 too.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iball View Post
The only reason Motorola switched to making folks get an "free entitlement key" for 25 kHz wideband can be summed up in a single word: marketing.
They want to know how many users are still on analog systems and the only way they can properly track that now is by creating a special firmware "update" that removes it but you can get it back for "free" by registering for that entitlement key. Now they know they have a customer still using analog. They can then send this info down to their dealers and say "hey, these guys are still on analog why aren't you selling them digital upgrades yet?
25KHz entitlement has ZERO to do with knowing if customers are still on analogue. It also has ZERO to do with making a radio switch from analogue to digital OR for making a radio go from digital to analogue.

There are still large portions of the V/Uhf spectrum that are still +/-5KHz deviation. Ham(144-148&420-450MHZ), Marine, Paging, the old 24 pairs of IMTS frequencies, and T-Band(470-520MHz) are exempt from narrow banding. All other users in V/Uhf 'should' be +/-2.5KHz deviation with waivers being the only legit to not to be.

With technologies like DMR there are advantages to going digital, but that is beyond the scope of this thread, and usually brings out the haters that have no real experience using a properly engineered DMR system..
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2014, 7:09 AM
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Quote:
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The only reason Motorola switched to making folks get an "free entitlement key" for 25 kHz wideband can be summed up in a single word: marketing.
Absolutely false.
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Old 08-06-2014, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kayn1n32008 View Post
25KHz entitlement has ZERO to do with knowing if customers are still on analogue. It also has ZERO to do with making a radio switch from analogue to digital OR for making a radio go from digital to analogue.

There are still large portions of the V/Uhf spectrum that are still +/-5KHz deviation. Ham(144-148&420-450MHZ), Marine, Paging, the old 24 pairs of IMTS frequencies, and T-Band(470-520MHz) are exempt from narrow banding. All other users in V/Uhf 'should' be +/-2.5KHz deviation with waivers being the only legit to not to be.

With technologies like DMR there are advantages to going digital, but that is beyond the scope of this thread, and usually brings out the haters that have no real experience using a properly engineered DMR system..
Well said. Of course my dmr system couldn't be working properly and it's obviously the fault of all the other equipment when no one can hear a 700 user.
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Old 08-07-2014, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8NQP View Post
Ok let's put this to rest. I have an 8400 system that is on the air. The only radios with audio problems are cs700's because you can only get proper deviation if you stick the radio against your right cheek and talk across the mic. All other radios on my system have been upgraded to newer than first gen firmware and have 0 AGC issues. There is definitely a low audio problem with the 700's if you do NOT use the method I described. ( when you have to turn the volume to 100% to hear a cs700, there is definitely an issue.) When I told Jerry that there was an issue, he emailed me and the group the correction for the hand mic. (So that tells us that it's a hardware issue, not software. Makes sense why folks using Motorola mics sound good)

The problem with loud audio on dmr is totally related to bootleg copies of CPS and not having the corrected firmware. It's out there but folks don't want to upgrade and lose their ability to use their bootleg Software.
I'm not looking for an argument. I've seen you going on in the M group about this already. What I said stands. You believe otherwise which is your right. I believe you were even the one who challenged the guy who said it wasn't the CS700 after all. Also I've seen plenty of comments its related to DMR-Marc's insistence on not using AGC properly on their systems. With it enabled on newer FW/SW everything works fine.

I tried to put both sides in my post to be fair but it is what it is.

Either way what I said stands and we'll see whether Jerry caves or sticks with what he's said all along. That is about the sum of it.
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Old 10-11-2014, 9:20 AM
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Does the speaker microphone accessory help with the low audio issue on the CS-700?

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Old 10-11-2014, 11:11 AM
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if you modify the CS one or use a motorola one, yes
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