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Digital Voice for Amateur Use Discuss use of digital voice technologies on the amateur radio bands. This is to include technologies such as VoIP, P25, DMR/TRBO, NXDN, D-STAR, etc.

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Old 09-12-2004, 1:23 PM
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Default APCO 25 Ham Systems

trying to put together a list of APCO25 amateur systems. Any help would be appreciated. There are 3 UHF and 1 VHF here in Chicago. Further info to follow.

tanks,

db
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Old 09-12-2004, 3:04 PM
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K5MOT 147.32 +offset PL 110.9 Fort Worth, TX
Some of the other Motorola club repeaters around here may be P25
but this is the only one I have heard digital modulation on.

Tom ND5Y
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Old 09-12-2004, 4:04 PM
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No such thing as a apco25 repeater in ham radio. If you notice the repeaters that do digital in ham radio follow a whole different protocol, not apco25. APCO25 is not approved for ham radio repeaters or will it be viable because of the cost. For example DSTARS by Icom is digital but it is not apco25 ,and in most cases cost prohibitive, the radios' themselves are like 1200 dollars or more and the repeater cost as much as an Icom IC7800.

R Collins KG4ICG
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Old 09-12-2004, 4:41 PM
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Yes, there are several (and the list is growing daily) APCO25 ham repeaters. The Rocky MTN Radio League on 145.22 is one of them.
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Old 09-12-2004, 4:58 PM
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Hey, just because a repeater might be a motorola micor which is pre apco25 doesn't mean it's apco25. You might want to make sure about it. Like is it computer operable and backed up with redundacy in case of problems. APCO25 is a standard by which most police and fire radio systems are going by these days. Like I stated before. Just because it does digital voice doesn't mean it's apco25 compliant. Just because you can access ECHOLINK or IRLP or phonepatches doesn't mean it's apco25 compliant. Just because you can link up with other repeaters doesn't make it apco25 compliant, that's been done in ham radio before apco25 came in to the light.
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Old 09-12-2004, 5:54 PM
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Easy there kg4icg, there are a number of APCO-25 Ham repeaters across the country, including Chicago and the DFW Metro area.

Let the thread progress.....
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Old 09-12-2004, 6:20 PM
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i sure wish someone had told me that before i started talking on that 147.315 VHF quantar in IMBE...

ASTRO is perfectly legal in the ham bands, this has been discussed all over the place

hell in this area there are 3 ASTRO P25 ham repeaters:

444.275, IMBE and Analog
444.625, IMBE and Analog
147.315, IMBE and Analog..

tell me there are no P25 ham repeaters, and no they are not micors, quantars or better baby!
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Old 09-12-2004, 6:28 PM
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I concede the point of apco25 ham repeaters because i did a search, but the radio's unless there are apco25 modules for them are all analog unless someone can afford having motorola's set up for digital voice, those don't come cheap. Haven't seen too many imbe modulated ham equipment sold yet, but what do i know.
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Old 09-12-2004, 6:33 PM
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IMBE is an open standard, hence follows the FCC guidelines for open access for amatuer radio. Anyone can make a IMBE (APCO25 compliant) radio, as long as they pay the license fee to the IMBE codec owners.

That DStar or whatever might be a different story. I do not know if its propriotry (sp) or not, and if it is, it may not be 100% legal in the US. As I understand it, non-analog formats are suppose to be "in the open" so that everyone can use it. My understanding is that only ICOM has these radio's, so in a sense...

People just need to be aware that there are IMBE varients out there that won't talk to standard IMBE.

Now, the only Motorola repeaters that will play with IMBE are the Quantar series. MSF, Micor, MTR etc DOES NOT DO IT! You are talking about people who are putting up $14,000 repeaters (new) to play with. Some people have been able to get non-IMBE radio's to pass IMBE, but they require EXTENSIVE modifications and don't always work. I would put the number of those radio's at less than 50.

Hey Grem, those wouldn't happen to be Doug's machines would they?
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Old 09-12-2004, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kg4icg
No such thing as a apco25 repeater in ham radio. If you notice the repeaters that do digital in ham radio follow a whole different protocol, not apco25. APCO25 is not approved for ham radio repeaters or will it be viable because of the cost. For example DSTARS by Icom is digital but it is not apco25 ,and in most cases cost prohibitive, the radios' themselves are like 1200 dollars or more and the repeater cost as much as an Icom IC7800.

R Collins KG4ICG
I believe that P25 is the ONLY digital voice protocal allowed in the Amature service. (Since it is an open standard)

Correct me if I am wrong.

What is DSTARS?

And as for the repeater type, would it not be the C4FM that would be hard to get an older transmitter to pass, not the IMBE vocoding?
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Old 09-12-2004, 6:47 PM
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Looking at DStar, its a Japan thing from ICOM. Its an open system in terms of use, but they make now mention of it being an open standard. In fact, the system right now is 1.2GHz and 10GHz and appears to intergrate voice and data. Its basically a whole voice and wireless internet/data network over ham radio....In Japan. Nothing that I think we need to worry about here in the US.

If anyone want's to take a look at it, go to http://www.icomamerica.com/amateur/dstar/default.asp

As NJay and I have said, APCO25 is an OPEN standard, hence can be used by anyone...fits the guidelines.

BTW: The Micor's are like 20+ years old. Just had to have one of our Micor bases repaired and it was 50/50 if it could have been done! (still works and sounds great!)

As for passing the IMBE signal, the IMBE repeaters resync the data. That's the key with the repeaters. Someone has been able to make two Astro Spectra's into a makeshift IMBE repeater, but its took a lot to do that, and its still a work in progress.
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Old 09-12-2004, 6:47 PM
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According to the arrl website there are at least 8 digital protocols allowed includin 2 which were developed by ham radio operators in which one of them is used by AOR AR9800 which has digital voice on hf. DSTARS is a ICOM radio system which uses one of the protocols that are listed in the ARRL list.
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Old 09-12-2004, 6:49 PM
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Have a link from the ARRL website?
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Old 09-12-2004, 6:55 PM
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I guess you could try to get the FCC to aprove DSTAR (I am sure icom is trying).
The AMBE is fairly open (licensed by DVSI I believe). and GSMK is open also (I think, althought there may be some cellular pattents on it), and they could always publish the channel coding to fill out th emissing piece.
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Old 09-12-2004, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kg4icg
....unless someone can afford having motorola's set up for digital voice, those don't come cheap. Haven't seen too many imbe modulated ham equipment sold yet, but what do i know.
I thought what many people do is buy used Astro Sabers and XTS 3000 from eBay for way under a $1000 and with the right cables, software and know-how you can get them working on the HAM bands.
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Old 09-12-2004, 9:12 PM
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That's my UHF Quantro. 199w of butt-kickin' multi-mode IMBE and Analog voice.

792 feet.

444.625 Mhz, NAC 293 (assuming you know what that is)

yes, we use motorola radios.

yes, we operate in digital mode.

yes, it's legal.

yes, it costs as much as a new car.

stop spouting off about something you have no clue about.

DSTAR? High dollar vapor-ware... right now second hand APCO STANDARD equipment can be bought...works...and is lots cheaper.



doug
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Old 09-12-2004, 9:18 PM
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Maybe we need to tote that to Dayton next year. It will fit in the back of the suburban
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Old 09-12-2004, 9:21 PM
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well, i am certainly NOT checking it as "baggage"



doug
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Old 09-13-2004, 5:40 AM
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Doug,



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Old 09-13-2004, 8:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun
Doug,



\


heheheheh
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