DSD and P25 GFSK decoding

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Boatanchor

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Can anyone tell me why I get terrible P25 decoding with the default DSD settings i.e C4FM etc, but when I force DSD to run with -f1 -mg (Phase 1 with GFSK decoding), I get perfect decoding?
This is the case with a local P25 TRS and a more distant P25 conventional network.

Has anyone else noticed this??
 

Boatanchor

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For those who have not tried it, try forcing GFSK modulation ( use the -mg command in the DSD batch file command line) on P25 Phase 1 and see if your decode error rate improves..

On my PC, I was getting constant high error rates and very choppy audio with the default DSD settings and C4FM modulation, however as soon as I switched to GFSK, the P25 phase 1 error rate almost disappears completely and the recovered audio is almost as good as any digital scanner.

I have tested this with both external (discriminator / sound card input) and using FuncubeDongle/RTL and VAC and more recently VB-Audio virtual cables on both TRS and conventional P25 systems. In each case C4FM, or the default DSD setting, is much worse.. Maybe it is because my PC is too slow to do C4FM correctly, but either way, there may be people out there who have given up completely on DSD for this very reason..

On a related issue, with the Funcubedongle receiver I.F width reduced to only 6000-7000Hz, I can decode good narrow band P25 audio at signals <10dB above the noise floor! On an external base antenna, with this configuration and at very low signal strengths just above the receivers noise floor, the Funcubedongle & DSD combination provides better P25 decoding than my BCD-996XT and GRE scanners hooked up to the same antenna.

For best results on weak signal, narrowband P25, set your SDR I.F setting to 6-7Khz (6000-7000Hz).
This will best match the actual deviation of +- 2.5Khz from the transmitter which will in turn improve the S/N and weak signal decoding performance. At these narrow IF settings though, make sure you have calibrated the SDR's receiver's frequency. You don't want the SDR/dongle to be off frequency by more than a couple of hundred Hz. You can tell pretty easily by zooming in on the tuned signal and ensuring that it is centered in the I.F passband.

Your Mileage May Vary of course..

If anyone tries this and can confirm these findings, please report back here :)

Cheers..
 

kscott

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I fully concur with your experiences. My 820T dongle also outperforms my GRE-500 on the same antenna for decoding very weak digital signals. I also found by accident that the -mg option with DSD performs much better decoding C4FM signals.
 

Boatanchor

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Thanks for confirming this kscott.

Interesting....

It is strange that this hasn't received more coverage in the various DSD forums.
 

SCPD

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cobraDIHO

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Yep, I've noticed this as well on several different computers, three tapped scanners, and my RTL-SDR dongle. DSD in its default setting gets me multiple errors but GFSK optimization makes for perfect/near perfect decoding.
 

Boatanchor

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Thanks guys.

Yes, I have seen many posters recommending 12.5Khz (or wider) IF settings. I think they may be confusing channel steps with signal bandwidth/deviation though.

Anyway, good to hear that others are finding similar results.

I wonder what the deal is with the poor C4FM demodulation??
 

n4yek

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For those who have not tried it, try forcing GFSK modulation ( use the -mg command in the DSD batch file command line) on P25 Phase 1 and see if your decode error rate improves..

Boy, what a difference. I went from 65% to 99% recovery of audio.
Thanks!!!
 

Boatanchor

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Boy, what a difference. I went from 65% to 99% recovery of audio.
Thanks!!!

You're very welcome :)

Hopefully, the DSD software authors are following these posts and are able to fix the C4FM woes with an update.

Boatanchor
 

Danoman

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WOW!

I thought I was getting near perfect decodes until I tried this.
Big improvement here with a pretty fast PC and a strong signal on the system I'm monitoring.

Thanks for the tip Boatanchor.
 

AZScanner

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Heh... I'm that longtime member Unitrunker was referring to. I don't know WHY 4980 works, it just does and I'm a longtime alum of the school of "don't fix what ain't broke". This digital simulcast nonsense we have out here is a literal pain in the butt to monitor (no really - I sit so long fiddling with this or that that my butt hurts lol) so ANYTHING that works - even if it defies all sense and logic and/or works for no one else - I do.

As for forcing GFSK, I seem to recall trying this and not getting the good results everyone else was reporting (I've eaten since then however, so I don't remember if it was this tweak or something else). I'll try it again tonight and report back to the group. It's been a while since I listened to my little SDR dongle.

To quote one of my favorite movies, "Goddammit, I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it would do any good!"

-AZ
 

Boatanchor

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As for forcing GFSK, I seem to recall trying this and not getting the good results everyone else was reporting (I've eaten since then however, so I don't remember if it was this tweak or something else). I'll try it again tonight and report back to the group. It's been a while since I listened to my little SDR dongle.

To quote one of my favorite movies, "Goddammit, I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it would do any good!"

-AZ

LOL :)

I'd be really surprised if simply switching to GFSK modulation in DSD improved P25 simulcast reception, but I and a lot of others would be interested if it helped even just a little. I can't test this at all here as there are no simulcast systems local to me.

It really does help a lot (for some strange reason) on 'normal/non-simulcast' P25 conventional and TRS systems though.

As I said before, I hope that the DSD software authors, if they are even still around, are following this thread.
 

AZScanner

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Well, I've been running DSD all day today comparing between GFSK and C4FM optimizations and I'd say at this point the GFSK is slightly better on our hellish simulcast system. The decode rate is about the same as C4FM but it seems to run a bit more reliably in GFSK mode.

I also tried the filter bandwidth settings suggested by Unitrunker and the results were no where near as good as they are for me at 3940. I have no idea why it works better, but it certainly does on this system. Weird.

Curious to know if the same holds true for others listening to the RWC in the Phoenix area - can anyone report in?

-AZ
 

moonbounce

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I would like to know that frequency band that is being monitored? I find that decoding Ap 25 in the 142 MHz as very poor, but go up into the 800 band and the decode is 100%?

Moonbounce
 

KC1UA

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Definite improvement here using these settings. I'm using an R820T dongle. I also use SDR-Radio to run the dongle. I'm listening to a 482 MHz conventional P25 police department about 25 miles away and it's working far better than ever before....as in I can actually understand what they're saying. :)

Somehow I missed this thread until now, so belated thanks for the tip.
 

moonbounce

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I just made the change to GFSK and I have gone from I would say a 50% decode to about 80% decode. I also made a change in sdrsharp.exe. This improvement would be for band 142 Mhz as the only other band with AP 25 is in the 866 Mhz area and it has always been 100% decode.

Thanks for the above info.

Moonbounce
 

IC301

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... To quote one of my favorite movies, "Goddammit, I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it would do any good!" -AZ

The trick is to get a bully or other annoying person to do it in front of a lot of other people, then it does good; everyone learns something.
 
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