Advice Needed - Communication System

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altonj

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Forgive me if this is off-topic but it seemed the most logical place (to me anyway) to post this question based on the apparent knowledge level of those actively posting in this section and the regional nature of the situation.

I have some good friends who live and work in an area south-east of the French River and south of the 'west arm' of Lake Nippising. These people spend a lot of time travelling remote areas and could use a communication system for emergency purposes, updates on ETA, and requests for additional equipment to be sent into the field. They need to cover an area with an approximate 15 km radius from 'home'. Terrain is an issue and they accept they may have to get to a ridge in order to call for assistance. They travel through some heavily wooded areas, often making their own trails, so any antenna system will need to be flexible - or cheaply replaceable.

This needs to be relatively inexpensive and the units going into the field need to be rugged as they will be in boats and snowmobiles in temperatures as low as -30 C. They have a preference for systems that do not require monthly fees.

On the wish-list of features... since it's hard to hear much of anything over an outboard or snowmobile engine... some form of persistent visual indication that someone wants to talk to you would be very helpful.

One of my first thoughts was to erect a tower with a GMRS repeater... but it seems those are not yet legal in Canada.

Another thought was to use CB units with SSB but I couldn't quickly locate any handheld CB units with SSB capabilities. Then there is the limit on tower height for CB base stations.

Another thought is VHF Marine radios. The last time I looked into them (around 1998) you had to be licensed to use one in Canada but some research showed me that, for certain conditions, is no longer the case. However, after reading those certain conditions I'm unsure whether or not the above conditions qualify for unlicensed VHF Marine radio usage.

For those that may be familiar with the area... had the Blue Sky Net initiative actually met it's objectives these people would likely only need to carry cell phones now.

As such I'm throwing it open to this group in the hope of soliciting some ideas and information.

Regards,
Jim
 

phyberoptics

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The cheapest solution would be the use of amateur radio...this scenario you are describing is ideally suited for it. It would be feasable to erect an amateur radio repeater, although there may already be one in the area. If you are considering putting up your own repeater, the frequency pair(s) would have to be coordinated via the repeater council responsible for that area. HF Mobile would be something to consider, with 80M being favourable as a band to consider.

There is some pretty rugged and relatively inexpensive equipment available. I would strongly suggest all users obtain a license prior to transmitting.

Same goes for Marine Radio, last I checked it was against the law (federal) to use these radios for land-based operations.

I think amateur radio (ham) is the way to go, and I'd be willing to bet there are already repeaters available in that area for use.

For more information, how to get started, etc., you can check out http://www.rac.ca
 
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altonj

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phyberoptics,

Thanks for the information. It is my understanding as well that land based VHF Marine units must be licensed as well. However, given that the snow machines (in this case) are most often on bodies of water I was hoping that, coupled with the remoteness of use, would put this planned usage into a 'grey' area.

As I understand the regulations they'd need an Advanced Qualification in order to use the 80m band (3.5 - 4.0 Mhz) and I just don't think that's going to be possible for all members of the group. Further, a quick look through products available at Radioworld.ca did not reveal any handhelds that seemed to be able to transmit in that frequency range. Perhaps I missed something.

Please understand I would not ask anyone to recommend something illegal (especially in writting) but I was hoping there was some alternative I had overlooked.

Regards,
Jim
 

electricsheep

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Plus correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds more like you are a commercial operation? I don't think any operation of commercial traffic is allowed on the amateur bands. It's been a while since I got my license... :confused:
 

phyberoptics

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MatteBlack, I didn't quite gather commercial from his description, however perhaps Jim can clarify this. If this is strictly for non-commercial, then of course amateur radio is the way to go.

Jim, The 80m band is just one band that would be sufficient for the type of coverage you are looking for. 2m is another alternative, and most of the mobile radios of date can be set up for cross band repeating, so linking with a local repeater from a portable radio is very feasible. I'm not sure what repeaters are in that area, but I would think you should be able to hear/work one in your area from a mobile unit. You are correct, there are no portable hf (hand-held) radios but there are non-hand-held hf radios like this one: http://radioworld.ca/product_info.php?cPath=72&products_id=43 and http://radioworld.ca/product_info.php?cPath=72&products_id=47 that would work.

If you're looking for a commercial (for profit, business driven) solution, amateur radio isn't your answer.
 
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altonj

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Matteblack,

You may well be right. These are 'commercial' activities in the broad sense of the term... but the use of the radio would be primarily for safety. This is also part of my confusion and reason for opening this to a wider, (much) more knowledgeable audience.

Regards,
Jim
 

phyberoptics

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This is a grey area for amateur radio. You're not conducting business, but the reason for the radios is to "keep tabs" on the people. I wouldn't see any reason why you couldn't use amateur radio SO LONG AS you do not discuss the commercial aspect.

A conversation of:
A: Hi Bob, did you call Company X to get their order?
B: Yes, they want 10 widgets
A: Ok, I'll place the order now

and the line from your post
and requests for additional equipment to be sent to the field
...is not acceptable.

However, a conversation of:
A: Hi Bob, traffic conditions are pretty bad, I'm going to duck through the forest
B: Roger that, watch your head, did you watch Grey's Anatomy last night, that Izzy is sooo hot
A: Yum
...is perfectly fine.

So long as the radios are not used to conduct business, you may be able to skirt the line. Using amateur radio to call for help or for recreational purpose is fine in my opinion.
(just remember to identify at the beginning, end, and every 30 mins in between yada yada)

On a related mater, as a ham, one of the things I hate about amateur radio is the stodgy method in which people talk to each other. I prefer to use plain language, and talk to the other parties as though I'm standing in a room with them. You can have fun -AND- be a good operator at the same time, something I think a lot of hams lose focus of.
 
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mrweather

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Since you say part of your travels may include blazing your own trail through dense brush, UHF (and up) may not be your best choice. Foliage severely attenuates such high frequency signals. VHF (136-174 MHz) or "low band" (30-54 MHz) would be better considerations.

Setting up a repeater is not a trivial undertaking. You really need to know your stuff in order to DIY. Otherwise you'll have to pay for a commercial installation.

Commercial gear in these two band ranges is readily available and extremely durable compared to "consumer-grade" ham radios. Crossband repeating is also possible using ready-made vehicular repeater gear.

Given the environment I'd almost lean towards low-band. It will unfortunately limit your choices to mobile and base equipment. Low-band handhelds do exist but their range is limited compared to an equivalent mobile installation.

Licensing is a separate matter. I'm not sure how Industry Canada deals with it.
 

electricsheep

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If you are operating with only a few teams in a remote location beyond the coverage of existing communications infrastructure like cell phones/MIKE/Iden and are primarily using the gear a few times a day or for emergencies, I would go with a sat phone per team to a central dispatch and a good lost comms contingency procedure/plan that involves shorter range VHF radios to aid in the search and rescue. Your intitial gear outlay is high, and you have a monthly charge and a per minute fee, but the units are user friendly and reliable enough as long as you keep your batteries charged and don't abuse the antennas too much.

But, with all that being said, amateur radio (indeed any radio) can be used even by non licensed or authorized individuals in emergency situations. Perhaps something like the above, with the backup of a 6m ssb radio for each crew for emergency use would be workable. Your talking about a 30km range max for your area of operations, 6m would definitely cover this, 2m might be a stretch unless you have even terrain and no obstructions.
 

altonj

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Thanks for all the great information.

Matteblack - The range required would be 15 km max. I did say a 15 km radius but it just so happens that 'base' is nearly centre of the territory being covered.

And I'd forgotten about the idea that virtually anything can be used in an emergency situation.

These people depart around 9:00 or 10:00 am each and and aren't considered overdue until 9:00 pm that night. The fear is that they could go through the ice... be soaking wet, unable to start a fire, it's -20C or worse out, and they might not see help for another 12 hours.

Sure, they'd love to have full commercial style communications... but that just isn't feasible.
 

phyberoptics

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But, with all that being said, amateur radio (indeed any radio) can be used even by non licensed or authorized individuals in emergency situations. Perhaps something like the above, with the backup of a 6m ssb radio for each crew for emergency use would be workable. Your talking about a 30km range max for your area of operations, 6m would definitely cover this, 2m might be a stretch unless you have even terrain and no obstructions.

Let's not misinterpret this notion. Amateur radio operators can be ordered by the government to use their stations in the event of an emergency, but the licensed operator of the station (or alternate qualified individuals). This does not leave the door open for purchasing equipment and keeping it on "stand-by" "in-case-of" emergency.
 

palo1

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Agree with the above and would add that since the number of actual "emergencies" in a year might number one or two if that, (if you anticipate more than that then you have serious issues with workplace safety that need to be addressed) I would think the limited use you would be able to put unlicensed amateur radios in place for would dictate you licence your operators or pay for the service you want and get the usage you desire.

It sounds like you are definitely a commercial operation (hunting/fishing/tourism) and are asking people to look for loopholes to save a few dollars - you realize that any training/licensing/equipment costs can all be considered a business expense and written off - again assuming this is an above board operation

p
 

altonj

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These are legitimate operations... I hadn't offered too many details as not to offend anyone's sensibilities. It happens to be a Father (60's) and Son (40's) situation where the Father is a fur trapper and the Son is a bait Harvester and they work independently in the same 'zone'. They are both fully licensed.

As for looking for loopholes to save money - partially, but also to save time. Neither of the above businesses are what you'd call lucrative careers but really are more like lifestyle choices. So while the commercial radio equipment and any associated training may be a tax write-off the overall affect to cash flow is still a negative. Doing research with my limited understanding I had thought I'd found some grey areas regarding use of VHF Marine but I wanted to confirm that with people who know more than I do - so I'm not putting these good people in a bad situation.

As for amateur radio - I can't see the Father being too willing to make a 90 minute drive (each way) to attend the closest course for 10-16 weeks. Further, his math skills are not the strongest and while I don't have my amateur license (though I have ordered the RAC study guide and operating manual) I understand some math is required to obtain a license.

I've never looked into commercial radio services and have no idea as to the cost. My suspicion is the proper infrastructure doesn't exist in the area and/or the costs would be prohibitive. If anyone has some ballpark numbers I'd appreciate the information. I'll make some contacts in this area to see what I can find.

I am back to thinking about the possible use of CB's with SSB and building some form of case for them that would protect them from the elements and vibrations while housing a capable battery.
 

palo1

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I'll assume your location does not have cell phone coverage which would be ideal.

CBs with SSB are far and few between and the coverage is really hit and miss

A more dependable option might be a FRS radio - no licence and good coverage

A Marine VHF radio licence is really very easy to get - no courses - just study the small guide take the test and you're good to go - a whole lot easier than an Amature licence

Another option might be a Satelite phone, probably expensive, but would work perfectly

What distance and terrain would you need to cover with these radios - that will also affect your choices

I appreciate your sharing a little more about the situation, it was not my intent to accuse you of cutting corners, there are many medium to large sized businesses that try to increase their bottom lines by ignoring the rules. The situation you describe is one where I can see that there might not be a lot of profit involved and you need to find a low cost solution

p
 

electricsheep

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palo1 said:
A Marine VHF radio licence is really very easy to get - no courses - just study the small guide take the test and you're good to go - a whole lot easier than an Amature licence

But he's not in a boat...
 

altonj

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palo1 said:
I'll assume your location does not have cell phone coverage which would be ideal.
Correct. The federal government provided funding for an initiative called 'Blue Sky Net' back around 2000 that was supposed to provide the area with high speed internet and other communication technologies. It's fallen well short of target and now those still involved in the project are playing the typical finger pointing game while failing to provide any form of a 'go forward' solution.

Otherwise... a small cell phone tucked in an interior coat pocket to keep it warm and out of the weather would be a wonderful solution.

palo1 said:
CBs with SSB are far and few between and the coverage is really hit and miss
I do see a few mobile units with SSB listed at Radioworld.ca and DurhamRadio.com so it appears possible. It would leave a challenge in terms of dealing with the sometime extreme weather.

And putting up an antenna for CB communications is legal.

palo1 said:
A more dependable option might be a FRS radio - no licence and good coverage
The range required is 15 km so while FRS might not work... GMRS would if you could get above the terrain and the trees. Sadly, GMRS repeaters are illegal in Canada. Personally, I think a GMRS repeater would be the ideal situation for this region if enabled as a public and open service providing communications abilities to boaters, snowmobile enthusiasts, hunters, trappers and anglers as so many of them already have GMRS capability. Simply extending their range in this remote environment seems logical (to me anyway).

I understand the reasons for the delay in allowing FRS/GMRS repeaters.

Does anyone know if the federal government (Cdn) has ever allowed exemptions on a case-by-case basis? Especially where this is a public need and very little chance (willing to investigate this further) of interference with any existing users of the frequencies.

palo1 said:
A Marine VHF radio licence is really very easy to get - no courses - just study the small guide take the test and you're good to go - a whole lot easier than an Amature licence

Another option might be a Satelite phone, probably expensive, but would work perfectly

I may pursue the VHF license for my own interests. The cost of the Satellite phone plus the monthly subscription fees would be prohibitive for the situation being addressed.

If there were a commercial outfit that was replacing an existing system this 'Near North' situation might provide a good home for the old equipment.

The investigation continues.
 
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imcleish

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I agree VHF Low would be the best 2 way radio option for the work/terrain described, although for it to work in an emergency, somebody needs to be listening on the other end.

Other options start to ride the legal line such as using the marine radio, obtaining higher powered GMRS than the current Canadian Standards allow, modifying legal FRS/GMRS to take an external antenna or an antenna of longer wave length, or cb radios with turned up output power.:(

My local snowmobile club has been looking at options that would provide better coverage in the north as well, currently in use is an older style analog bag phone on the bell network, the user often has to walk to find a signal, sometimes up to a mile. The dream is a sat phone on an emergency use plan, or finding a business willing to donate the monthly service fee.

The only other option ever thought of looking at was if we were to be available to the local fire/emergency services for off road rescue/assistance, would they provide us system access that would be invaluable when their need arises or we need to use it.

The upfront equipment fee is only ever 1/2 the battle.
 

altonj

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imcleish said:
Other options start to ride the legal line such as using the marine radio, obtaining higher powered GMRS than the current Canadian Standards allow, modifying legal FRS/GMRS to take an external antenna or an antenna of longer wave length, or cb radios with turned up output power.:(

I've never been too shy about bending the occasional rule or two. But breaking them outright just isn't the right thing to do.

Yes, a Sat. phone on an emergency use - or even a pay as you play - plan would be wonderful.

I wonder what the timeframe is for allowing the full 5 watt GMRS and GMRS repeaters in Canada. Will have to see if I can find any documentation on this.
 

mrweather

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Part of the issue with getting GMRS into Canada was there are a number of currently-licenced users (land mobile). IC accomodated the migration of some of these users to other frequencies and established a moratorium on new LMR licences on the GMRS/FRS frequencies back in 2003 or 2004.

Personally, I'd like to see GMRS repeaters allowed in Canada. But, I don't see it happening for at least another 5 years, if not more!
 
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