Hydro Quebec

[radiolalaland]

Is anyone able to confirm if these are actually still used?

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F3915254A

[DaveH]

This record is at least four years old, before Fleetnet moved
into the area. One of the callsigns is wrong, there may be
other errors, and who knows what else has changed.

My suggestion is that the people in Ottawa get busy with
some real frequency and system/talkgroup checking, instead of
moving around old data from people's websites. With over 330
members of OTTAWASCAN (or what it's now called), you'd think
that would be happening, but one look at the conventional
listings says it isn't. Many of the submissions were wrong from
the start (some have been corrected or removed). A participation
rate of just 2% (6 or 7 people) could make the Ottawa listings
top-notch.

The early trunked submissions were another story I don't want to
get into, and I'm leaving anything outside of Ottawa out of this
discussion.

If nothing happens, soon people are going to run out of ANY
data to submit. In any case, the people in Ottawa, or any other
area for that matter, will get the quality of database they deserve.

Dave

[radiolalaland]

Ok, first Dave. Why the rant?

It's 4 year's old. Fine. But it has been archived. It seems there is none of this info in the database. So atleast it's a starting ground. Do you have anything to offer with it? If so, how come it's not in the database then?

It was only a suggestion for those that might be in the area to maybe check these out. Yeah they're old, but they're not listed. How does one confirm these? By listening to the comm's. Now what happens if someone does submit info for this area? Are you gonna go all hogwild over it wondering where it came from?

Now you're saying that we're gonna run out of stuff from Ottawa to list in the database????? I think there's something wrong with that line. But you said it Dave. There's lot's of stuff to add to the area. Just no one is bothering to submit it.

What about on the Quebec side? Is Gatineau not good enough to list. I'm sure your in ear's shot of this Dave. I'm sure you know which fire depts an ems is what for the area. Where's the info Dave? It's up to the people to submit it if they want to fine. But they have to have some sort of ground to start from.

Originally Posted by DaveH

This record is at least four years old, before Fleetnet moved
into the area. One of the callsigns is wrong, there may be
other errors, and who knows what else has changed.

My suggestion is that the people in Ottawa get busy with
some real frequency and system/talkgroup checking, instead of
moving around old data from people's websites. With over 330
members of OTTAWASCAN (or what it's now called), you'd think
that would be happening, but one look at the conventional
listings says it isn't. Many of the submissions were wrong from
the start (some have been corrected or removed). A participation
rate of just 2% (6 or 7 people) could make the Ottawa listings
top-notch.

The early trunked submissions were another story I don't want to
get into, and I'm leaving anything outside of Ottawa out of this
discussion.

If nothing happens, soon people are going to run out of ANY
data to submit. In any case, the people in Ottawa, or any other
area for that matter, will get the quality of database they deserve.

Dave

[mciupa]

There are confirmed Hydro Quebec freq.'s listed on another scanning group's database.

They would be found at www.infoscan.urgence.qc.ca

Although my understanding of French is rudimentary, I'm able to fumble
my way through their freq. database. I tried to post a DB link here but
was denied.
You must become a member to have that priviledge. That's your decision.
I joined a couple of weeks ago.

They have all the site locations listed and when you choose one, when
you click on the word Motorola the freq. pops up.

[MikeOxlong]

Originally Posted by radiolalaland

It's 4 year's old. Fine. But it has been archived. It seems there is none of this info in the database. So atleast it's a starting ground. Do you have anything to offer with it? If so, how come it's not in the database then?

Have you compared the data you found on the web with the database entry for Hydro Quebec?

http://www.radioreference.com/module...B&sid=1797

Incidentally, the website that the data was archived from is still around.

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

The system was still active when I went to Montreal last year. HQ also has a 800 MHz Smartzone system on the Island of Montreal.

I usually take radios, computers, etc when I travel and run Trunker. I was travelling alot in Ontario (Windsor, Toronto, Parry Sound, Ottawa) and then to Montreal in October 2003. I submitted information on both Fleetnet and HQ at the time. I remember another submitter for HQ information at the time as well.

One problem was alot of the smartzone sites were not very active so I only logged a control channel. Another problem is that I only know about 20 words or so of French so no talkgroup determination. It was difficult to nail down where the sites were. I got the impression that the site numbering goes west to east in layers. I think the low number sites were on the Quebec/Ontario Border and the high number sites were Northeast of Montreal up near Trois-Rivieres. So sites around Ottawa are listed in the database but the exact locations are not known.
http://www.radioreference.com/module...B&sid=1797

I think scanner listeners in Ontario did a great job figuring out the Fleetnet system. I wish more people would run Trunker and figure out some of the non-Public Safety systems. I usually bandscan and see what control channels I can hear when travelling.

BTW the VHF/UHF beta of Trunker was mostly developed and tested in Ontario using the Niagara Region Fleetnet sites that sent the new System ID protocol.

I enjoyed the Aviation Museum and Science Museum when I was in Ottawa. The National Igloo was interesting as well.

73 Eric
"All I know about Canada comes from watching Air Farce and 22 Minutes"

[DaveH]

Eric,

Good to hear from you, no matter what the topic.

Regarding Hydro-Quebec, I've been running recent versions of Trunker
on it from time to time, including your newer variants The TRS DB shows
what I think is a problem. I know it's not impossible that some sites with
site numbers different by one (1/2, 6/7, 22/23, 29/30, 38/39) could have
the same control channel, but seems like more than a coincidence. It
may be because versions of Trunker prior to m3.8.3 reported the site
number one less than it should be, and we have a mix of old and newer
data. Two of the voice channels listed under Site 29 have been logged as Site
30 (local to me), so that one could be fixed. I don't want to touch sites that
I can't verify, because that would involve deleting one of them. Do you recall
the site numbers you would have reported (with known good version of
Trunker)?

As far as monitoring non-emergency service systems, interest around here
is very low. There's a guy about an hour west of here with a tapped scanner,
and maybe a few locals in the woodwork, but I can't say I know who they
are. I run Ltrtrunk regularly, and try to keep local systems info up to date
although not much on IDing talkgroups given the effort involved (a sort of
cost-benefit thing). And then there's a wide area commercial MPT-1327
system on 450/460MHz (about 40 frequencies) that nobody's touched yet...

Dave

[OntarioScannerNut]

Are these the frequencies that your looking for Dave? I'm sure the one's specific that your talking about are there.

I don't think there's much activity on this system that you're talking about for the MPT-1327.

I haven't heard a peep in my area. Except for the Control Ch. which I forget what the SysID was for that. I'll have to try an find it again.

Some frequencies listed are not part of this system. But rather other systems which have been ID'd.

Originally Posted by DaveH

As far as monitoring non-emergency service systems, interest around here
is very low. There's a guy about an hour west of here with a tapped scanner,
and maybe a few locals in the woodwork, but I can't say I know who they
are. I run Ltrtrunk regularly, and try to keep local systems info up to date
although not much on IDing talkgroups given the effort involved (a sort of
cost-benefit thing). And then there's a wide area commercial MPT-1327
system on 450/460MHz (about 40 frequencies) that nobody's touched yet...

Dave

[EricCottrell]

Originally Posted by DaveH

Eric,

Good to hear from you, no matter what the topic.

Regarding Hydro-Quebec, I've been running recent versions of Trunker
on it from time to time, including your newer variants The TRS DB shows
what I think is a problem. I know it's not impossible that some sites with
site numbers different by one (1/2, 6/7, 22/23, 29/30, 38/39) could have
the same control channel, but seems like more than a coincidence. It
may be because versions of Trunker prior to m3.8.3 reported the site
number one less than it should be, and we have a mix of old and newer
data. Two of the voice channels listed under Site 29 have been logged as Site
30 (local to me), so that one could be fixed. I don't want to touch sites that
I can't verify, because that would involve deleting one of them. Do you recall
the site numbers you would have reported (with known good version of
Trunker)?

Dave

Hello,

I wonder if any scanner listeners go to the Carp Hamfest? I was there two years ago and may go this year. The bunker in Carp is an interesting place to visit.

I looked over the HydroQuebec stuff and I realized that I hardly did any analysis and submitting of information. I realized that I had a trip to South Carolina a few weeks later so I mostly submitted the Fleetnet stuff and left the rest for later. I have done nothing until now.

I seem to remember someone emailing me and we had a brief exchange, maybe it was in 2002 or early 2003, because some of my Trunker info disaggreed with his information. Since I was not in the area I thought maybe they changed some sites.

There is a note in the DB that three frequency ranges are used and the Licenses bear that out. However I have only found 142 MHz frequencies on the listed system. Looking at the Licenses it appears there is also analog usage in Eastern Quebec and I would not be surprised if there are multiple sysids in use.

There is alot of frequency reuse with this system on 142 MHz and with a couple of active frequencies logged on some sites I was able to narrow it down to a single site. My trunker logs show some adjacent site numbers have the same control channel frequency but these sites are likely 100 or so miles apart. I think that aided in the confusion. I did see on a quick check at least one site has different frequencies then what is listed in the TRSDB and maybe a result of a off by one problem.

I have found a website for searching of Quebec placenames and I have an Atlas Routier du Quebec. I noticed in the TRSDB site 29 is listed as Camp Fouture which I assume is in Chelsea, Quebec. My notes show a site 30 as an active site in the Ottawa area and the license database puts it nearby on Mont Cascades in Cantley, Quebec.

I need to go through the rest of my notes and see if I have anything from the 2004 trips. I have used several laptops and one of them is broken currently. I will go through the information and post on this thread. So far I have some new sites not in the TRSDB.

I may also try and create a map for my own use of the HQ sites to help me figuring them out. I discovered in Gimp (or any graphics program that supports layers) that you can have a map background and put dots and text in as layers on top of the map. It is also possible to create a mask layer that covers the map detail under your added text so it is readable. I did it for voicelink sites in CT and found it very helpful for seeing frequencies and site numbers.

73 Eric

[DaveH]

Originally Posted by radiolalaland

Ok, first Dave. Why the rant?

It's 4 year's old. Fine. But it has been archived. It seems there is none of this info in the database. So atleast it's a starting ground. Do you have anything to offer with it? If so, how come it's not in the database then?

It was only a suggestion for those that might be in the area to maybe check these out. Yeah they're old, but they're not listed. How does one confirm these? By listening to the comm's. Now what happens if someone does submit info for this area? Are you gonna go all hogwild over it wondering where it came from?

Now you're saying that we're gonna run out of stuff from Ottawa to list in the database????? I think there's something wrong with that line. But you said it Dave. There's lot's of stuff to add to the area. Just no one is bothering to submit it.

What about on the Quebec side? Is Gatineau not good enough to list. I'm sure your in ear's shot of this Dave. I'm sure you know which fire depts an ems is what for the area. Where's the info Dave? It's up to the people to submit it if they want to fine. But they have to have some sort of ground to start from.

That was only half a rant, the other half follows. It is not necessarily directed at you specifically,
so don't be too offended. However, if the shoe fits...


As has been pointed out, some of it is in the database. As to do I have some to
offer, yes, but collecting accurate data takes time. I could go into excruciating detail,
but not now.

I am a contributor directly, and indirectly having done so to Don Bowlby's
site while it was being updated. I may have even contributed to the HQ data
at one point. That it has been "archived" means not a lot, because it is still active
(as Mike points out). Unfortunately, over the past few years, Don's site has
been plagarized numerous times.

I spent a lot of effort cleaning up the commercial trunked listings someone
copied over, after the fact. That my corrections bear some resemblance to Don's
files is mostly coincidental because, besides being one of the original sources,
I re-verified all data independently. There is still some old talkgroup info hanging
around which should be cleaned up, but otherwise these files have not been
touched in *years*.

There are *hundreds* of conventional frequencies around Ottawa/Gatineau
still unreported, but it is not up to any one person to gather it all. As for
Quebec, I'm not nearly fully bilingual and struggle through french transmissions.
People with only conventional scanners could take up this, while people with trunked
scanners and tapped receivers with software could work on that end.

Sadly, quality of conventional submissions I've seen has been dismal; with a few
exceptions, mostly stuff that's been around for some time anyway. Not being an
admin, I probably don't know the half of it. Probably more data has been deleted
than is currrently there now. Looks like users expect data to be presented
to them (free) without doing much real work. Further, the copy/submit crowd don't
seem too concerned with accuracy, as long as they get their submission brownie
points. Bad data tends to sit around. As I said, people will get the database they
deserve.

Dave

[DaveH]

Eric,

Mini-"rants" aside...back to regular programming

Didn't you forget "Talking to Americans"? <ahem>
"Congratulations, Canada, on getting your first two-way radio system!"

All H-Q I've heard is in the 142MHz range, although there's some in
the 150-154 range just beyond my normal reception range, at Lachute.
Control channel is 142.275 (VDW827) but no site number yet. As
you've found, some sites have low activity; sometimes Trunker left on
all day doesn't show any VC activity.

Mont Cascades and Camp Fortune not far from each other. The
correct site location for 29 (30) appears to be Mont Cascades.

I can collect adjacent site data using Treport and post it (with other
corrections), which would help with a "network" map for anyone
who wants to make one.

More later...

Dave

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

I went through my 2003 logs and here is what I was able to pick up. I may find some more data in the future but this seems to be alot already.

The Camp Fortune Site seems to called Lucerne in the IC database and maybe a low power site as I only got it weakly in Ottawa.

The Place names are from the IC Database at:
http://sd.ic.gc.ca/engdoc/main.jsp
Locations with a ? after them are tentative. These locations were close to the listening location and had the frequency listed.

The (number) is the connect tone.

4e2a System
Map File
142.005,0.005,17c

Site 3 (105.88) Calument?
142.9800 Control

Site 4 (76.76) Carignan?
142.9800 Control

Site 5 (105.88) Coaticook? Neighbors -> 25 27 33
142.3800 Control

Site 7 (76.76) Terrebonne
142.0650
142.3500
142.4250 Control
142.6050

Site 11 (105.88) Heriot?
142.7850 Control

Site 12
142.3800 from Neighbor

Site 13
142.3650 from Neighbor

Site 14
142.9800 from Neighbor

Site 22 (105.88) Lacolle
142.3650 Control
142.4700

Site 23 Lucerne? (weak in Ottawa)
142.5600

Site 25 Mansonville?
142.3950 from Neighbor

Site 27 (105.88) Mt-Bellevue?
142.9950 Control

Site 28 (76.76) Mont-Brome
142.0950 Control
142.5000
142.5750

Site 29 (128.57) Mont-Carmel?
142.4250 Control

Site 30 (97.3) Mont Cascades
142.0650 Control
142.5750
142.6050

Site 33 Mont-Megantic
142.7250 from Neighbor

Site 34 (90) Mont Ripon (weaker than Site 30 in Ottawa)
142.5300 1e5 Control
142.7400 20f

Site 36 St-Zenon
142.4100 from Neighbor

Site 39 (90) Petite Nation?
142.4100 Control

Site 41 (97.3) Rawdon? Neighbors -> 7 36 44 50 52 58 59
142.5150 Control

Site 42 (116.3) Rivere-A-Pierre?
142.9950 Control

Site 43 (76.76) Montreal
142.3350
142.4100 Control
142.9650

Site 44 St-Donat?
142.3650 from Neighbor

Site 46 (76.76) St-Hyacinthe?
142.3800 Control

Site 48 (90) St-Jovite?
142.2150 Control

Site 49 (105.88)
142.5300 Control

Site 50 (105.88) St-Sauveur
142.0950 Control
142.5000
142.6350

Site 51
142.4100 from Neighbor

Site 52 (83.72) Ste-Angele?
142.3950 Control

Site 56 (105.88) Lachute?
142.2750 Control

Site 58 Ste-Agathe?
142.5600 from Neighbor

Site 59 (97.3) St-Come?
142.2750 Control

73 Eric

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

Today I realized that the limit for Smartzone, according to info here on RR, is 48 sites. I actually logged site numbers over 48!

But then I realized how I could log site 4 in the Montreal Area and other people could log site 4 over in Pembroke. Trunker could be doing a modulus 64 on the site number and the Montreal area site could be site 68!

73 Eric

[OntarioScannerNut]

Site 3 (105.88) Calument?
142.9800 Control

I believe this is the one that shows it's licensed in Pembroke Ontario. L'isle Aux-Allumettes is just across the Ottawa River, which is in Quebec.

142.485000 138.495000 PEMBROKE, ON HYDRO-QUEBEC PLANS ET NORMES TELECOMMUNICATIONS
142.905000 138.915000 PEMBROKE, ON HYDRO-QUEBEC PLANS ET NORMES TELECOMMUNICATIONS
142.980000 138.990000 PEMBROKE, ON HYDRO-QUEBEC PLANS ET NORMES TELECOMMUNICATIONS

You say this is Site 3, the database here shows it as Site 4

Originally Posted by EricCottrell

Hello,

I went through my 2003 logs and here is what I was able to pick up. I may find some more data in the future but this seems to be alot already.

The Camp Fortune Site seems to called Lucerne in the IC database and maybe a low power site as I only got it weakly in Ottawa.

The Place names are from the IC Database at:
http://sd.ic.gc.ca/engdoc/main.jsp
Locations with a ? after them are tentative. These locations were close to the listening location and had the frequency listed.

The (number) is the connect tone.

4e2a System
Map File
142.005,0.005,17c

Site 3 (105.88) Calument?
142.9800 Control

[MikeOxlong]

Originally Posted by EricCottrell

Hello,

Today I realized that the limit for Smartzone, according to info here on RR, is 48 sites. I actually logged site numbers over 48!
73 Eric

From my somewhat date info, a Smartzone system is limited to 48 sites however site numbers can go as high as 64.

[EricCottrell]

Originally Posted by OntarioScannerNut

Site 3 (105.88) Calument?
142.9800 Control

I believe this is the one that shows it's licensed in Pembroke Ontario. L'isle Aux-Allumettes is just across the Ottawa River, which is in Quebec.

142.485000 138.495000 PEMBROKE, ON HYDRO-QUEBEC PLANS ET NORMES TELECOMMUNICATIONS
142.905000 138.915000 PEMBROKE, ON HYDRO-QUEBEC PLANS ET NORMES TELECOMMUNICATIONS
142.980000 138.990000 PEMBROKE, ON HYDRO-QUEBEC PLANS ET NORMES TELECOMMUNICATIONS

You say this is Site 3, the database here shows it as Site 4

It is too bad that Canada does not have a National grid like the UK does. It makes it easier to locate places because most UK maps have the grid and it makes it standard.

The Calument I am taking about is across from Hawkesbury, Ontario. I was travelling East on the 417 at the time avoiding all the OPP cars. So it is not Pembroke. Pembroke is almost as far from Ottawa as Montreal is.

The confusion is about site 4 which I have logged on AutoRoute 40 NNE of Montreal Est. The closest site using the frequency is Carignan. There is a Carignan east of Montreal but the coordinates in the IC database place the site further north near the St Lawerance at Contrecoeur. My listening indicates site 4 is near Contrecoeur.

So Pembroke may not really be site 3 or 4 or Trunker is not indicating the actual site numbers. Next time I am up in Montreal I need to log some raw OSWs and see if trunker is decoding correctly.

73 Eric

[DaveH]

Originally Posted by EricCottrell

Hello,

Today I realized that the limit for Smartzone, according to info here on RR, is 48 sites. I actually logged site numbers over 48!

But then I realized how I could log site 4 in the Montreal Area and other people could log site 4 over in Pembroke. Trunker could be doing a modulus 64 on the site number and the Montreal area site could be site 68!

73 Eric

Eric,

I hope you didn't get all of that two feet of snow you mentioned earlier
(24x2.54 = 60.96cm, you said 61cm, close enough!).

Silly me...I was through Pembroke in Sept/04 with Treport and logged
some data from 142.980. It is actually Site 57 with Alt Site 2. No voice
channels were logged due to short stay. The CT is also 105.88 which
is what the DB says for Site 4.

I may have data in my notes from logging your Site 3 (Calumet (sp)), which
can be heard from east of Ottawa, in the Hawkesbury area; which would
make sense. I know it's not an 822f site, those are accounted for.

I think what may have happened is someone logged sites during enhanced
conditions that were coming from a far distance, with the same control channel,
and got the two mixed up. Just say you are normally out of range of Pembroke,
but one morning "it" starts rolling in. Without checking the Pembroke site from
within normal range, one wouldn't know. Just a theory, but it means there are
not two Site 4's.

I count 32 sites in your list so it's not nearly at the limit yet. If this is a SmartZone
system then there must be other Zones (or other systems) to cover the rest of
the province. It would be neat if the system transmitted Site Aliases, that Treport
could display, but even Ont. Provincial Zone 1 doesn't, but Zone 2 does
<scratches head>

What Mike says must be the case because there are several valid site numbers
above 48.

Anyway, I submitted some updates (excepting the one above and a few others
that might be lurking in my notes).

Dave

[DaveH]

Originally Posted by DaveH

Silly me...I was through Pembroke in Sept/04 with Treport and logged
some data from 142.980. It is actually Site 57 with Alt Site 2. No voice
channels were logged due to short stay. The CT is also 105.88 which
is what the DB says for Site 4.

I may have data in my notes from logging your Site 3 (Calumet (sp)), which
can be heard from east of Ottawa, in the Hawkesbury area; which would
make sense.

Anyway, I submitted some updates (excepting the one above and a few others
that might be lurking in my notes).

Dave

What I meant was the real site 3 and 57 have the same CC and CT; wonder why they would do that...

Found Site 3 logged in 2003 from Hawkesbury, CC 142.980, neighbo(u)rs 34,39,48,49,50,56, which jives pretty well with the sites you found. I went ahead with another round of updates from my info, confirmed in some cases by your data.

Dave

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

Thanks Dave!

Yeah HQ seems to have spaced sites like it was an 800 system . It appears they put control channels on the same frequencies. It was not very easy to figure some of the sites out because of the close spacing. I want to be sure and only confirmed sites by looking at the IC license data and narrowing it down to one site via the frequencies. The ones with question marks are likely the right ones but I could not comfirm it. Some sites are not very active. I guess you have to figure out when they read the meters nearby the site. Being a ham I understand lift on 2 meters.

We got another 10 or 12 CM of snow today and got the average total snowfall for the whole winter so far! This is the snowest month since detailed records were kept. Now we are in for some very cold temps.

73 Eric

[EJB]

Eric: Its gonna turn, warmer air from the west wil work its way over us.
Next week


Sorry to go off topic

Eric