VHF, UHF, and 800 MHz question

Status
Not open for further replies.

sepura

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Messages
157
Why do some agencies choose VHF, UHF and some choose to use 800 MHz? It seems most of the time 800 MHz are used in very populated areas, but I've noticed even some new digital systems still use VHF or UHF. Are some of them better than others? How do they choose which band they will use?

Thanks
 

gmclam

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,341
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
There are a lot of issues here. Generally speaking the lower frequencies were available first. So an agency that has been around "forever" and not upgraded would still be in a lower band. 800MHz became available when TV channels 70 to 83 were reclaimed and 700MHz became available when TV channels 52 to 69 were reclaimed.

Part of the picture has to do with availability. If you are presently using VHF and want to add a channel, you find you can't because there is no availability in your area. This issue includes interference with others near you.

Part of the picture has to do with terrain and usage. Are you in a city like San Francisco and want your signals to penetrate a concrete structure? Or are you in a hilly area? Or do you have a huge area to cover like the California Highway Patrol?

Part of the picture has to do with "radio salesmen". They want to sell you the latest greatest so they can earn the highest commission (or their company claims that's all they sell anymore). If you buy this "radio 2010" you can add as many virtual channels as you'll ever need, and the system can be shared by everyone in your area you want to share it with. But it operates on 800MHz, which will require several more towers than the site you are using.

This is often a process that involves a lot of compromise. My county could have stayed on UHF and been better off (as far as signal distance/quality) as far as I am concerned. But by going 800MHz trunked they have dozens, if not hundreds, of specialized "channels" that would be impractical to have on UHF (I don't think UHF trunked was offered back when they switched).

If the sheriff has switched to UHF, then it often makes sense for a city in the same county to switch to UHF too. It does not always work that way, but being able to communicate with someone you do a lot of work with can be a factor.

Availability, price, spectrum space, interoperability with neighbors, ....
 

gmclam

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,341
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
It seems most of the time 800 MHz are used in very populated areas,
It does not have the range of other bands. If you are in a city, it makes more sense.

but I've noticed even some new digital systems still use VHF or UHF.
An adjacent county is going to VHF trunked. Trunking has the advantage of many channels with much fewer frequencies. VHF, in this case, has the advantage of being able to cover more terrain than would UHF (note 800MHz is also UHF). They are going digital because I understand that analog radios are no longer being sold (at least by the companies offering the VHF trunked).

Are some of them better than others?
It is a trade-off, each with positive and negative aspects.
 

zz0468

QRT
Banned
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
6,034
Why do some agencies choose VHF, UHF and some choose to use 800 MHz? It seems most of the time 800 MHz are used in very populated areas, but I've noticed even some new digital systems still use VHF or UHF. Are some of them better than others? How do they choose which band they will use?

Thanks

A number of factors come to play... in no particular order:

* cost
* availability of frequencies
* what do surrounding agencies use?
* perceptions of the buyers/users
* history
* engineering considerations.

The last one, engineering considerations, is frequently the lowest priority.
 

joehawth

KB1RRG
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
99
Location
Morrisville, Vermont
I I understand that analog radios are no longer being sold (at least by the companies offering the VHF trunked)..


I wasn't aware that it was getting so difficult for an agency to get conventional radios without going digital....

Input from anyone else? Is the market today really all digital only?
If a municipality wants to upgrade their system, say, oh a police dept on a conventional ~460 MHz system buys 10 new patrol cars, can't they still buy conventional radios to outfit them?
 

zz0468

QRT
Banned
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
6,034
Analog conventional radios are still available. But many of these things are purchased through federal grants, and the grants frequently require that P25 be implemented. One federal grant funded project I had required "P25 compliant" radios. All that meant was that the system could be "upgraded to P25", and it actually went in as an analog system.
 

wb0wao

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
347
Location
Qulin, MO
The city PD and FD have "P25 capable" radios, but they are used only in analog mode. IF they ever decided to go to P25, then all it would take is for the radios to have that function enabled (as well as a license change) and they would be operating P25.
 

jim202

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
2,735
Location
New Orleans region
Today it is an almost sure bet that any radio sales person coming in the door to talk with any public
safety agency is going to talk a "P25" trunking system. Like others have said, it is in the salesman's
pocket interest to sell the most expensive system they can. This way their commission can be at the
max. Doesn't matter what is best for the public safety agency, the sales force are going to push the top
dollar system they can get the agency to spend on. Note, that this trunking system may be far beyond
what the agency can afford or even needs.

The radios on the market today are generally able to do P25. There are some that won't and I would
shy away from those. The main name to the game of obtaining a new radio today for VHF or UHF is
to make sure it does come with "digital" ability right out of the box without having to add a feature
software upgrade. The trunking ability on VHF or UHF is a rather expensive option and if you do
choose to go for it, make sure it is a "P25" compatible option.

On the P25 compatibility options, there is some digression by one or two companies to keep pushing
a proprietary functionality here. It either is P25 compatible all the way or not. When you start to hear
some back paddling or the "well, it does this", you need to get very technical and make sure your
getting what you think your getting. Don't take the word of the sales force stuffing the radio down
your throat, get someone on your side to dig into the details and make sure it's what you want.

Motorola is famous for throwing in all these features that an agency will never use and they just
add to the cost. Like right now there are a couple of new trunking systems being installed with
what is called P25 phase 2. This is having more than one conversation going on on the same
RF channel. It also means that you have to jack up your entire radio system and replace it
in it's entirety. Nothing is left except the towers and antennas. It's a very costly upgrade and
leaves all the other agencies around you with no way to communicate with the new system.

Radio system upgrades can be needed by a number of agencies. The big but comes in on
who is writing the specs for the new system. Don't let the radio vendor write the specs. Don't
rely on the radio vendor looking out for the best interests of the public safety agency. Find
someone that has a good solid proven background in radio systems to work with the agency.
It may take bringing in a consultant to help with this. But again, I will point out that there are
consultants out there that are not agency friendly. They are also looking to fatten their own
pocket and will drag out a job or look for ways to jack up the cost of the project. The reason
is these consultants typically base their price of the work based on a percentage of the total
radio system project cost. Walk carefully here and try to get a fixed price for the consultants work.

As for the differences in frequency bands to use, I am an old timer that likes to use VHF. I have
found over the years, that VHF seems to be the best selection for range and getting into buildings.
The problem with VHF is that you really have to dig to find frequencies available. The best you
can do is to monitor the channels and see what activity there is. Do this from the tower sites
with an antenna on the tower at the elevation you will be selecting for your system use. If you find
some channels open with no activity, then do your homework in the FCC database and see who is
currently licensed on the channels. If you do a 30 day test and find no activity, I would put this in
your request to the frequency coodinator and see what happens. The FCC has been reclaiming
channels with little or no activity, even though agencies still maintain a license. You just have to
find a channel and then press to get it licensed.


Hope this adds to some of the answers you were looking for.
 

joshua86

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
177
Location
Northern New Jersey
The city PD and FD have "P25 capable" radios, but they are used only in analog mode. IF they ever decided to go to P25, then all it would take is for the radios to have that function enabled (as well as a license change) and they would be operating P25.

What does "P25 capeable" radios mean?
 

W2NJS

Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Messages
1,938
Location
Washington DC
"P25 capable" means that the radio can at some future time be upgraded to P25 operating capability, in most cases. It could also be taken to mean that the radio now has P25 capability in it and operating but usually the first definition above is what it's taken to mean. If and when you enable the full P25 in the radio the radio shop gets to charge you "X" bucks per radio for the upgrade.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top