NEXEDGE interoperability

[scruggsy]

My town, Kings Mountain NC, has recently went to the NEXEDGE radio system, which as we know cannot be monitored on any scanner,
so my question is this,
How does KMPD communicate back and forth with other entities in the area?
in my mind, if we can't hear them who can? not sure how this works.
I recently read an article that I will share, that made me ponder on this!

VIPER - Western North Carolina Scanner Club

Interoperable communications was identified in the General Assembly's Criminal Justice Information Network report of 1995 as a critical need for public safety agencies when responding to emergencies.

After the attack on the World Trade Center in New York on September 11, 2001, it became even clearer that public safety officials needed to have the ability to communicate with one another on a single radio.

From the report by the National Commission on the Terrorist Attacks on the United States:

"The inability to communicate was a critical element at the World Trade Center, Pentagon, and Somerset County, Pennsylvania, crash sites, where multiple agencies and multiple jurisdictions responded. The occurrence of this problem at three very different sites is strong evidence that compatible and adequate communications among public safety organizations at the local, state, and federal levels remains an important problem."

The National Governor's Association Center for Best Practices has identified interoperable communications as one of the nation's top ten homeland security priorities:

"Interoperability is a serious, pressing public safety problem that severely undermines the capacities of law enforcement, firefighters, and other first responders to respond to and manage emergency situations. The tragic events of September 11, 2001, focused attention on the urgent need for public safety and other agencies to communicate reliably and effectively with each other when called upon in a crisis."

The National Task Force on Interoperability defined interoperability as:

- the ability of public safety agencies to talk to one another via radio communication systems - to exchange voice and/or data with one another on demand, in real time, when needed.

Public safety officials in North Carolina should be able to communicate directly with other public safety officials without having to relay the message through a communications center.

When put in place, interoperable communications will benefit all public safety agencies when dealing with daily emergency calls or large scale disasters. This will make fire, rescue, and law enforcement agencies better able to serve the citizens of North Carolina.

Thanks, Scott Scruggs

[MikeOxlong]

Their radios are analog capable. They would just switch to a common analog channel.

[scruggsy]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

Their radios are analog capable. They would just switch to a common analog channel.

Thats what I thought too, but I have on several occasions overheard the county Sheriffs deputies discussing speaking to KMPD either in person or by phone.
I monitored the County and SHP persuing a drunk driver into town limits yet never heard KMPD, only to hear a little while later that the deputy had spoke with a KMPD officer in reference to same!
so if they have the ability to switch back and forth, do they only do so in extreme situations? and why?
whats the point?

[mmckenna]

Could be a couple of things:

Frequencies might be different. If Agency A is on VHF and Agency B is on UHF, no amount of "interoperability sauce" poured over the radio is going to make them talk directly to each other. Doesn't matter if it's NexEdge, P25 or MotoTrbo. The only way to do that is with multiple radios or a patch done in dispatch.

The likely issue is training. If all agencies are on the same band and they are analog, then it should be just as easy as switching to the correct channel. Sometimes the officers don't know how to do this. While officers are required to re-qualify on many different tasks, understanding radio is not one of them. Many officers only know how to turn the radio on and off and use the push to talk switch. Remember, they are not radio guys, they are police officers.

Other issue could be the lack of MOU between the agencies. A department cannot simply program in another departments channels into their radio just because they want to. The agency that holds the license is supposed to execute a signed Memorandum Of Understanding with the agencies that want to use the channels. This doesn't apply to some of the mutual aid and interoperability channels.

[firefighter89]

So that's why I haven't been hearing Kings Mountain. Is fire using it as well?

Off topic but Tryon FD and PD in Polk County has switched to it as well.

[scruggsy]

Originally Posted by firefighter89

So that's why I haven't been hearing Kings Mountain. Is fire using it as well?

Off topic but Tryon FD and PD in Polk County has switched to it as well.

yes, the FD and PD did go to NEXEDGE according to this post!

Kings Mtn PD

here is the list of All Trunked Radio Systems in North Carolina, allthough I don't see KMFD on there!

North Carolina Trunking Systems

[whacker]

NexEDGE is not trunked by default. The agency could just be using their existing frequencies and converted over to NexEDGE, and you would notice that by the digital grind sound when they push the transmit button and you're trying to listen. One possibility.

[ButchGone]

So if the NEXEDGE radios can switch to a common analog channel for interops, then why were digital radios needed in the first place? NC, and most other states, had common VHF and UHF freqs for interops. And now with narrowbanding, the number of available analog channels for day to day and interops has increased several fold.
BG..

[whacker]

The number of available channels has indeed increased with narrowbanding, but you need a license for every/any one of those you might care to operate on. Which incurs a cost.

I came to this understanding just recently, as a couple of agencies in my area went NexEDGE. But the cost of narrowbanding with some equipment makes it such, for some departments, to decide to opt for the newer DMR radios (NexEDGE or MotoTRBO) because of some of the features they provide. For instance, for every existing licensed frequency, you can have two voice channels working, so you've doubled that. Plus you can do things like text messaging and other stuff perhaps more familiar to cell phones or P25 type systems; even convert to IP data stream for other uses (interfacing with other formats, etc.). And it can be set up to trunk with the right number of licensed frequencies. I don't know if this figures into the decision for some agencies, but the fact that it can't currently be monitored with a single unit scanner might be a plus for some of 'em.

They weren't needed, per se. But the timing of narrowbanding, the emergence of the technology from both Kenwood and Motorola, and I'm sure the enthusiasm of the marketing and sales departments of both those companies working on our local folks, has made it happen as we're seeing it.

[mmckenna]

Originally Posted by whacker

But the cost of narrowbanding with some equipment makes it such, for some departments, to decide to opt for the newer DMR radios (NexEDGE or MotoTRBO) because of some of the features they provide.

You are confusing DMR and NXDN, they are two different formats and not interchangeable. MotoTrbo is DMR. NexEdge is NXDN. Kenwood will be marketing a DMR radio in the European markets, but that isn't the same as an NXDN radio.

Originally Posted by whacker

For instance, for every existing licensed frequency, you can have two voice channels working, so you've doubled that.

That applies to MotoTrbo only, and then only when running through one of the MotoTrbo repeaters. For simplex communication, you only get one path.
NXDN is not TDMA, it's FDMA and you only get one talk path per frequency.
When Motorola claims that MotoTrbo is "6.25KHz equivalent", they leave out the fact about that only being when running through a repeater. When you need to use simplex, you are stuck in 12.5KHz mode. NXDN radios, however, will do true 6.25KHz bandwidth, doesn't matter if it's trough a repeater or simplex.

Originally Posted by whacker

Plus you can do things like text messaging and other stuff perhaps more familiar to cell phones or P25 type systems; even convert to IP data stream for other uses (interfacing with other formats, etc.). And it can be set up to trunk with the right number of licensed frequencies. I don't know if this figures into the decision for some agencies, but the fact that it can't currently be monitored with a single unit scanner might be a plus for some of 'em.

That is certainly correct. GPS coordinates tagged along with each transmission is another handy function for public safety. Included encryption with NexEdge is another.
A lot of it has to do with marketing. It's getting difficult to find high end analog only radios, you get p25, NXDN or MotoTrbo. The market for analog only gear is drying up and pretty much is delegated to the low end commercial market. The prices on these digital radios is also dropping, so selling these radios to analog users is a simple task. The customer gets more radio for the same price. Anyway, most people get all starry eyed when you mention the term "digital". Most of them have no clue what it means, all they know is it sounds cool. My son's elementary school is using simplex UHF radios for on site communications. Somehow the local Motorola dealer got in there and started selling them MotoTrbo radios. I've noticed that the higher ranked staff has them. Even though the rest of the staff is using lower priced analog gear, someone drank the coolaid...

Originally Posted by whacker

They weren't needed, per se. But the timing of narrowbanding, the emergence of the technology from both Kenwood and Motorola, and I'm sure the enthusiasm of the marketing and sales departments of both those companies working on our local folks, has made it happen as we're seeing it.

Yep, narrow banding was a great thing for the sales forces. You could pretty much force customers into over buying equipment under the threat of FCC fines. Most customers are not intelligent enough when it comes to radio systems to see through the smoke and mirrors. My only question is what is going to be the next thing?

[Jay911]

Originally Posted by ButchGone

So if the NEXEDGE radios can switch to a common analog channel for interops, then why were digital radios needed in the first place?

A very good question. All the people who champion NXDN and DMR as being "totally interoperable" neglect to tell you that it's really analog conventional that's the interoperable part.

[whacker]

Mmckenna:

Thanks for straightening me out. I'm a bit new to the whole DMR subject, and the reading I did got me onto the idea (erroneous) that NXDN was simply another derivation of the European standard that originated DMR, so I thought they were referred to as the same (TDMA and FDMA concepts aside).