Are Scanner Feeds Killing The LE Monitoring Hobby?

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

There was a workplace shooting here in Phoenix. Allegedly, a member of the media heard the suspect's home address given over the air, and arrived before SAU (SWAT) did. The suspect wasn't home, but if he had been, it could have gotten a whole lot worse.

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

If the address hadn't been broadcast over a clear precinct TG, but had been distributed via cell phone/MDC or one of the already encrypted SAU/Tac/Car-to-Car TG's, maybe the precinct C-deck hot call TG's would still be in the clear.

[KB7MIB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

So, to me, there's fault on both sides. The address shouldn't have been broadcast in the clear, when other means were available to distribute it, and the media should have staged away from the scene, instead of being so hot to scoop everyone else.

[car55]

Originally Posted by KB7MIB

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; U; en-US) Gecko/20081217 Vision-Browser/8.1 301x200 LG VN530)

So, to me, there's fault on both sides. The address shouldn't have been broadcast in the clear, when other means were available to distribute it, and the media should have staged away from the scene, instead of being so hot to scoop everyone else.

Some departments broadcast it and other departments do not. My city police are bit picky of giving out calls over the radio of wanted suspects or possible police raids of fear of that or even if the suspect had scanner and may take off or be barricaded in house with guns line up for SWAT to come in .

The media should been taken to jail for that it would have send a message yes a very big message What the media should have done is called the media relations ask for info and when the scene was secure and than with permission by phone with police could gone to media staging area set up by police .That normally how they like do to hear and works well.

Not good idea to get in way and cause problems and put everyone at risk.Also the public and media has to understand you not going to get information talking to police constable or SWAT guy of fear they will get in truble and may not know what to give out and not give out so they will say talk to sergeant or higher ranking,Most big calls here they say call the media relations of police department.

[xrsm002]

Originally Posted by mike_s104

Below is only my opinion so you're welcome to disagree.

I don't think that this site is 100% to blame , but isn't completely innocent either. The media which plays the audio on tv and online, steers more lazy non-scanner people to listen and learn they can commit crimes and have a heads up. Then more people will use this site for wrong doing. I really dislike the media because of the way they mislead the sheople.

There might not be any official study about how many people actually are caught with a scanner app running when they are arrested, but I am sure it's more than people here would like to admit.

Another thing that I think is happening is the sales people use this site as a selling point along with all the overblown media hype to push the encryption.

If it were up to me, and it's not, I would not allow any police/law enforcement streaming at all. Or at the least, shut down feeds when there are events that could jeopardize the safety of police or public. And/or have a 15 to 30 min (not seconds) delay.

There have been many times (I'll need more than both hands and feet to count them) I've heard on a scanner (not an app) that I've heard an officer/trooper/deputy say something specifically about a scanner app that a suspect had running or ask another trooper/officer/deputy to call them so they could not be heard over the Internet.

I also feel that all law enforcement dispatch TGs/freqs/channels need to maintain the ability for the public to monitor 24x7 since we are paying their salary and for the equipment. If they need encryption for a raid or operation, then use a TG/freq/channel. I'm lucky enough my local sheriff's office does just that.

Actually when I volunteered with my local PD I turned my PD radio on and a mobile scanner app and noticed that there was a 15-20 second delay on the app.

[Spitfire8520]

Originally Posted by xrsm002

Actually when I volunteered with my local PD I turned my PD radio on and a mobile scanner app and noticed that there was a 15-20 second delay on the app.

He's talking about a 15-30 minute delay, not seconds. Most people realize there's a very slight delay on feeds due to the streaming nature of audio feeds, but some others want to turn it into a record and then rebroadcast type deal.

[N9NRA]

Originally Posted by pinballwiz86

I think it's a compromise between giving a useful tool to cheap criminals and needing a live feed. Need it live? Buy a scanner! Otherwise a ten minute delay is live enough...

Well said , couldn`t agree more. N9NRA

[Arizona_Scanner]

After writing the Phoenix PD for their side (and getting a prompt and polite response), I have now been contacted by the Arizona Republic, our local newspaper for an interview tomorrow. Information from my interview will be used as a counter to arguments made by the city.

My stance is this:

With our current P25 simulcast system, use of a handheld / mobile scanner by a criminal to gain any useful information is virtually impossible. You are lucky to hear half of what is said on this system while in a moving car, or even in most stationary locations. The ONLY way to really monitor this system is to be very near one of the simulcast towers, or to set up a yagi antenna on a base station in order to attenuate all but the desired tower. So I disagree that criminals can really use this information for the most part anyway in this situation. If something is really sensitive, use an MDT, or switch to an encrypted group, or make a phone call. This tactic is used constantly and has been for decades. That way that (rare) criminal with a base scanner and the correct antenna or who lives near one of the towers, won't get sensitive information.

As far as smart phones, as the reporter who called me agreed, they really aren't that useful to a criminal for outsmarting the police, since you can't pick what the feed listens to. Hearing anything related to one specific matter would be really hit and miss. Now can they be used by "lookey loos" to cause problems? Absolutely. So the solution there is to insist that feeds are delayed a few minutes, giving officers "the jump" on the those who would cause problems. Anyone interfering with investigations / law enforcement can and should be prosecuted under existing laws. If this has been such a problem where are the prosecutions?

We all know why having an informed public is important, and I will cover those issues as well.

If I get any more good suggestions for the interview, I will use them.

[zerg901]

Arizona Scanner. If the perp was running around your neighborhood - would you really want any delay on your scanner? (I wouldnt push the delay aspect very much). Be sure to mention the bomb toting bank robber from Carson City NV.

[pepsima1]

Well also look at it this way too. I live in The County of Orange and their system which is the CCCS system and their trunking system has been encrypted for about 13 years now and has it stopped crime or criminals probably not.

We had the LAPD cop killer strike in our City and he killed two wonderful young people in their car. Did encryption stop him from killing or causing pain in our safe city. The answer is NO. Plus The City of Irvine did not release any information for 24 hrs on the situation and we had a cop killer on the loose in our City and we not informed or notified about this. This is completely wrong.

Then a couple of weeks later in our county a guy went on a killing spree and killed a hooker in his home and then went and got in his car and got on the freeway and started shooting at people in their cars and then got in a gun battle with cops and then he turned the gun on himself and killed himself. Did encrypting radio waves stop this incident, NO.

I have also heard that cops in our county use foul language on their radios and do whatever they want because they know they can't be heard. Its like the boys club and they are not being held accountable for their actions and being TRANSPARENT.

[pinballwiz86]

Originally Posted by zerg901

Arizona Scanner. If the perp was running around your neighborhood - would you really want any delay on your scanner? (I wouldnt push the delay aspect very much). Be sure to mention the bomb toting bank robber from Carson City NV.

If they're that worried about a delay then they can buy a scanner. I still think scanner feeds should be delayed at least ten minutes to keep more police department radio traffic transparent.

[StephenVa]

A 30 minute delay would make me OK with them.

[Git-R-Done]

Probably so or probably not all depends what the live feeds have to offer for the person who is wanting to take a listen to whatever feed their wanting to listen to. I myself I take a listen DMR-MARC feed for MotoTRBO since I have my 996XT scanner for my Public Safety.

[mike_s104]

Originally Posted by pinballwiz86

If they're that worried about a delay then they can buy a scanner. I still think scanner feeds should be delayed at least ten minutes to keep more police department radio traffic transparent.

Exactly. If the criminal is smart enough to program a digital scanner (not talking PSR-800 or similar) and actually understood enough about it to have out on a specific channel or TG, he's not going in to rob a 7-11 with an Airsoft "gun". He's going to hit a bank or something larger with a real loaded weapon. A normal crackhead or junkie would have sold their (or someone's they stole) 396XT long ago on Craig's List for $75 as a CB.

But, the everyday run of the mill thug with his Boost Mobile phone running his 5-O app that he paid $1.99 for and his sideways "9" might not think twice about robbing a Flying J and listening for 5O as he flees in his ricer Honda with fart can muffler and primer hood.

[bear780ks]

I talked to one of the Local P.D officers i know and he said as for here were we live we want people to help as much as the Law allows).

And having a Scanner to him isn't bad at he went on say i have allot friends that Carry then and and if no law are broken with them he says we don't have issues with folks carrying them he did also say there may be time's you will only here one sided Conversations when listening as some of P.D. may kick the encryption on but for most Traffic you will here just about all of it..

[car55]

Originally Posted by Arizona_Scanner

After writing the Phoenix PD for their side (and getting a prompt and polite response), I have now been contacted by the Arizona Republic, our local newspaper for an interview tomorrow. Information from my interview will be used as a counter to arguments made by the city.

My stance is this:

With our current P25 simulcast system, use of a handheld / mobile scanner by a criminal to gain any useful information is virtually impossible. You are lucky to hear half of what is said on this system while in a moving car, or even in most stationary locations. The ONLY way to really monitor this system is to be very near one of the simulcast towers, or to set up a yagi antenna on a base station in order to attenuate all but the desired tower. So I disagree that criminals can really use this information for the most part anyway in this situation. If something is really sensitive, use an MDT, or switch to an encrypted group, or make a phone call. This tactic is used constantly and has been for decades. That way that (rare) criminal with a base scanner and the correct antenna or who lives near one of the towers, won't get sensitive information.

As far as smart phones, as the reporter who called me agreed, they really aren't that useful to a criminal for outsmarting the police, since you can't pick what the feed listens to. Hearing anything related to one specific matter would be really hit and miss. Now can they be used by "lookey loos" to cause problems? Absolutely. So the solution there is to insist that feeds are delayed a few minutes, giving officers "the jump" on the those who would cause problems. Anyone interfering with investigations / law enforcement can and should be prosecuted under existing laws. If this has been such a problem where are the prosecutions?

We all know why having an informed public is important, and I will cover those issues as well.

If I get any more good suggestions for the interview, I will use them.

Arizona_Scanner drop the case any more calling to the police to talk to them, going public or protesting may get Chief of police worked up and get every thing encrypted .We don't need public press on some thing like this and get debate going on and even other departments getting information what going on here.

When it comes down to it well it does NOT always have to be reason why has some police just don't want people to listen in just like some police don't want cops fox doing ride on In Phoenix case it looks like there was some abuse by the media and the Chief hates this. Other police departments really may be no answer it just the police don't like it like many other things .Some departments are open to ride on programs and voluntary work with the police and other police departments are very rigid about this same with cop programs like fox.

Some Chief of police are nice and some are grumpy.Be very careful what you doing may back fire and just get every thing encrypted .

[SkiBob]

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

I'm one to believe to just leave things alone. Why bring this publicly misunderstood hobby to the front? The chief isn't going to change his mind no matter what is said. He has enough to deal with without his dirty laundry being hung out for everyone to see. I think the best thing to do is let the chief think nobody cares if his agency encrypted. Perhaps the next time money is an issue, he won't fork out the extra cash to go encrypted because there is no value in it.

[Jimru]

I agree with the last two posts: leave well enough alone.

Reminding the police that we are out here listening may very well fly in our faces and convince an otherwise non-committal chief that they should try to encrypt if they can afford it.

[gmclam]

Originally Posted by pinballwiz86

If they're that worried about a delay then they can buy a scanner. I still think scanner feeds should be delayed at least ten minutes to keep more police department radio traffic transparent.

I wonder if both sides would agree to this deal. We will DELAY all feeds by 10 minutes and you will NOT encrypt any normal (dispatch) traffic.

[car55]

Yes if Arizona_Scanne brings this misinformed poorly understood hobby to press and other police departments find out about it it could back fire.

And phoenix police are only using encryption on hot calls and doing this the like SkiBob is saying bringing the chief dirty laundry to the press may get the chief so worked up he may just say the hell of it that do full time encryption on all talkgroups.